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You are leaving somethings out KenC. Like, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, the teaching office of the Church. The Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit. Just as the United States Supreme Court is the guardian and interpreter of the Constitution, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit is the guardian and interpreter of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
Now if we look at what you say, and if self-interpretation really were of the Holy Spirit, then 100% of the people would necessarily arrive at the same interpretation 100% of the time for "God is not a god of confusion" (1 Cor. 14:33). Wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, in the real world thats not the way it is. Hence... we have tens of thousands of differnt Protestant, non-Catholic denominations/sects, and tens of thousands differnt interpretations of Scripture. This is why the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is so important! Besides, is was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible in the first place. Which reminds me KenC. You do relize in 2Tim. 3:16, St. Paul was refurring to the Old Testament don't you? Yep, he was, cause the books of New Testament had not yet been compiled.
Again, what if the fella sitting beside you, reading the same Bible verse you are reading, but disagrees with your interpretation, and claims he too is being inspired by the Holy Spirit? Without any type of authority, how are you to know who's interpretation is correct, and who's is in error? Again...1Cor.14:33.
Yeah.... tell that to Martin Luther!
Moving on............
Pax Christi
Now if we look at what you say, and if self-interpretation really were of the Holy Spirit, then 100% of the people would necessarily arrive at the same interpretation 100% of the time for "God is not a god of confusion" (1 Cor. 14:33). Wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, in the real world thats not the way it is. Hence... we have tens of thousands of differnt Protestant, non-Catholic denominations/sects, and tens of thousands differnt interpretations of Scripture. This is why the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is so important! Besides, is was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible in the first place. Which reminds me KenC. You do relize in 2Tim. 3:16, St. Paul was refurring to the Old Testament don't you? Yep, he was, cause the books of New Testament had not yet been compiled.
Again, what if the fella sitting beside you, reading the same Bible verse you are reading, but disagrees with your interpretation, and claims he too is being inspired by the Holy Spirit? Without any type of authority, how are you to know who's interpretation is correct, and who's is in error? Again...1Cor.14:33.
Yeah.... tell that to Martin Luther!
Moving on............
Pax Christi
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Luke 11 [SUP]27 [/SUP]While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
Mark 3[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then His mother and His brothers *arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]A crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?”[SUP]34 [/SUP]Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! [SUP]35 [/SUP]For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
____________________________
Have you read the Old Testament? How many times did the Israelites turn away from God? How many times did they alter or abandon the commands of God? The Catholic Church has done the same thing, but then again, so have "Protestants" (as the Catholic Church likes to call Christians that realize the fallacies of the Catholic Church. But I want to be clear - Those that I meet with teach doctrine incorrectly as well. I am not aware of any religious group that is 100% accurate in all their teachings. I am listening to Catholic radio right now. They teach a lot of things accurately, but they teach just as many things that are complete nonsense.
_______________
Matt 16 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”[SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
Jesus gives the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. [SUP]26 [/SUP]For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? [SUP]27 [/SUP]For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Catholics argue that the keys have something to do with establishing the pope-hood. Some non-Catholics say that the keys are a reference to Peter's sermon at Pentecost. But Jesus explains the "keys" immediately: From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day -His death and resurrection
Ironically most religions teach that Jesus' death and resurrection is the key to our salvation, but we seem to completely forget that when we read these verses.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Luke 11 [SUP]27 [/SUP]While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
Mark 3[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then His mother and His brothers *arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]A crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?”[SUP]34 [/SUP]Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! [SUP]35 [/SUP]For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
____________________________
Have you read the Old Testament? How many times did the Israelites turn away from God? How many times did they alter or abandon the commands of God? The Catholic Church has done the same thing, but then again, so have "Protestants" (as the Catholic Church likes to call Christians that realize the fallacies of the Catholic Church. But I want to be clear - Those that I meet with teach doctrine incorrectly as well. I am not aware of any religious group that is 100% accurate in all their teachings. I am listening to Catholic radio right now. They teach a lot of things accurately, but they teach just as many things that are complete nonsense.
_______________
Matt 16 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”[SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
Jesus gives the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. [SUP]26 [/SUP]For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? [SUP]27 [/SUP]For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Catholics argue that the keys have something to do with establishing the pope-hood. Some non-Catholics say that the keys are a reference to Peter's sermon at Pentecost. But Jesus explains the "keys" immediately: From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day -His death and resurrection
Ironically most religions teach that Jesus' death and resurrection is the key to our salvation, but we seem to completely forget that when we read these verses.
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You make a distinction when in fact, Jesus is making a unity with those who do the will of God. In this passage, Jesus is not reproaching His Mother, or slighting her - as some would suggest. Rather, He is telling us that blood relations are not what is important. It doesn't matter if you are a relative of Jesus - as if that were something to boast about. What is important is to hear the Word of God and obey.
Mary is the perfect model of faith, unless you argue that she did not do the will of God, which is absurd. She shows us how to do the will of God by her example as a mere creature, and in doing so we are His mother and brothers. So it isn't wise to disown her as your mother. Having a King with no queen or a New Adam with no New Eve does violence to scripture and all of Christian history.
The answer to this problem can be clearly found in Luke 1:38 where Mary says, "behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy WORD". It looks to me like Mary is saying "yes" and doing the will of God, or God would have to find somebody else.
So when Jesus says in Luke 11:28 "blessed are they that hear the WORD of God, and keep it", he is not putting down his mother. In fact, it is Jesus himself honoring Mary.... because indeed, she heard the WORD, and kept it, despite it being revealed by Simeon that her soul would be pierced also (Luke 2:35). Either Mary did the will of God or she didn't, you can't have it both ways.
I suggest you bring up one point at a time, starting with what bothers you the most, and hopefully we can have a sane discussion.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
14. Catholicism retains the elements of mystery, supernatural, and the sacred in Christianity, thus opposing itself to secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.
15. Protestant individualism led to the privatization of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.
16. The secular false dichotomy of "church vs. world" has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.
20. Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."
30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.150 Reasons Why I'm Catholic (You Should Be Too!)
_______________
Of course His death and resurrection are keys to our salvation, but that is not what Jesus is talking about when He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom, they have to do with authority. This is apparent in many places in scripture.
Isa.22:22And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; heshall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shallopen.
Isa.22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna toEliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority,but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom havepassed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with anunbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.
Rev.1:18; 3:7; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably representauthority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peterauthority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was notseriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500years later after Peter’s investiture.
Revelation3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `Thewords of the holy one, the true one, who has the keyof David, whoopens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.
Matthew16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whateveryou bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose onearth shall be loosed in heaven."
The parallel is undeniable.
Matt.16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts.This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.
Jer.33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.
Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.
Dan.2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces,and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand forever.
"Pope-hood" does not rest on one or two verses. There are 75+ verses in the NT indicating Peter as leader of the Apostles, but that isn't enough for some people.
The Church is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T, and not Microsoft. The Church is the fulfillment of Judaism; Protestantism cannot make that claim.
Mary is the perfect model of faith, unless you argue that she did not do the will of God, which is absurd. She shows us how to do the will of God by her example as a mere creature, and in doing so we are His mother and brothers. So it isn't wise to disown her as your mother. Having a King with no queen or a New Adam with no New Eve does violence to scripture and all of Christian history.
The answer to this problem can be clearly found in Luke 1:38 where Mary says, "behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy WORD". It looks to me like Mary is saying "yes" and doing the will of God, or God would have to find somebody else.
So when Jesus says in Luke 11:28 "blessed are they that hear the WORD of God, and keep it", he is not putting down his mother. In fact, it is Jesus himself honoring Mary.... because indeed, she heard the WORD, and kept it, despite it being revealed by Simeon that her soul would be pierced also (Luke 2:35). Either Mary did the will of God or she didn't, you can't have it both ways.
I suggest you bring up one point at a time, starting with what bothers you the most, and hopefully we can have a sane discussion.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
14. Catholicism retains the elements of mystery, supernatural, and the sacred in Christianity, thus opposing itself to secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.
15. Protestant individualism led to the privatization of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.
16. The secular false dichotomy of "church vs. world" has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.
20. Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."
30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.150 Reasons Why I'm Catholic (You Should Be Too!)
_______________
Of course His death and resurrection are keys to our salvation, but that is not what Jesus is talking about when He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom, they have to do with authority. This is apparent in many places in scripture.
Isa.22:22And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; heshall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shallopen.
Isa.22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna toEliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority,but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom havepassed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with anunbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.
Rev.1:18; 3:7; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably representauthority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peterauthority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was notseriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500years later after Peter’s investiture.
Revelation3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `Thewords of the holy one, the true one, who has the keyof David, whoopens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.
Matthew16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whateveryou bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose onearth shall be loosed in heaven."
The parallel is undeniable.
Matt.16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts.This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.
Jer.33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.
Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.
Dan.2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces,and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand forever.
"Pope-hood" does not rest on one or two verses. There are 75+ verses in the NT indicating Peter as leader of the Apostles, but that isn't enough for some people.
The Church is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T, and not Microsoft. The Church is the fulfillment of Judaism; Protestantism cannot make that claim.
Are we talking about the same Peter that Jesus said was speaking Satan's will, the same Peter who cussed and swore he didn't know Jesus, the same Peter who had to be told not to reject the "extra" people God called "clean", the same Peter who, decades later, discriminated against those very gentiles during Fellowship time, the same Peter who's faith failed on the lake surface? Just a plain, ordinary man?
No need to give the standard Catholic excuses and "explanations". Just trying to make sure I have the right guy in mind.
No need to give the standard Catholic excuses and "explanations". Just trying to make sure I have the right guy in mind.
Then they have denied scripture, at least omitted portions.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
There is no reason not to know and the fullness of Gods peace and joy cannot be had apart from the certainty of full assurance.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
There is no reason not to know and the fullness of Gods peace and joy cannot be had apart from the certainty of full assurance.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I have prayed for many people. I pray to God. I do not pray to the goddess Mary like the Catholics do. I do not pray to the goddess Saints like the Catholics do.
I pray to the Father, not to Satan like the Catholics do.
Mary NEVER was our Mediator. The Scriptures are very clear in that only Jesus is our Mediator. Not Jesus and Mary like the godless Catholics teach.
Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
What is the will of the Father?
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you pray to Mary? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you pray the Hail Mary? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you teach Mary is our Mediator? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you teach Mary was born without sin? NO!
Only those who do the Will of the Father are the True Christians.
Catholics are not doing the Will of the Father when they make Mary their mediator.
I pray to the Father, not to Satan like the Catholics do.
Mary NEVER was our Mediator. The Scriptures are very clear in that only Jesus is our Mediator. Not Jesus and Mary like the godless Catholics teach.
Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
What is the will of the Father?
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you pray to Mary? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you pray the Hail Mary? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you teach Mary is our Mediator? NO!
Are you doing the Will of the Father when you teach Mary was born without sin? NO!
Only those who do the Will of the Father are the True Christians.
Catholics are not doing the Will of the Father when they make Mary their mediator.
Yup, same guy. Just what are the "standard excuses and explanations" that you don't like? Jesus qualifies the called, he doesn't call the qualified. To whom did Jesus say, "feed my sheep" 3X? Or did you leave that out because it doesn't fit your preconceived unbiblical notions of a leaderless church??
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)
Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.
Independent Evangelical churches follow the Baptist Successionist idea that the early church was de-centralized. They like to imagine that the early Christians met in their homes for Bible study and prayer, and that in this pure form they existed independently of any central authority. It is easy to imagine that long ago in the ancient world transportation and communication was rare and difficult and that no form of centralized church authority could have existed even if it was desirable.
The most straightforward reading of the Acts of the Apostles shows this to be untrue, and a further reading of early church documents shows this to be no more than a back-projected invention.
Authority of the First Popes
The Early Papacy – 2
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)
Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.
Independent Evangelical churches follow the Baptist Successionist idea that the early church was de-centralized. They like to imagine that the early Christians met in their homes for Bible study and prayer, and that in this pure form they existed independently of any central authority. It is easy to imagine that long ago in the ancient world transportation and communication was rare and difficult and that no form of centralized church authority could have existed even if it was desirable.
The most straightforward reading of the Acts of the Apostles shows this to be untrue, and a further reading of early church documents shows this to be no more than a back-projected invention.
Authority of the First Popes
The Early Papacy – 2
The Catholics believe its the state of the Soul at death that determines whether one has or has not receive Salvation.
John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Its our believe in Jesus that determines whether a person has or has not received Salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We HAVE been saved by Grace! Not by the condition of our Soul at death.
What the Catholics teach about Salvation is a man made Doctrine based on our WORKS for our Salvation.
Clearly epostle I do know what the Catholic Church teaches about Salvation and the Catholic Church is dead wrong!
John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Its our believe in Jesus that determines whether a person has or has not received Salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We HAVE been saved by Grace! Not by the condition of our Soul at death.
What the Catholics teach about Salvation is a man made Doctrine based on our WORKS for our Salvation.
Clearly epostle I do know what the Catholic Church teaches about Salvation and the Catholic Church is dead wrong!
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If you desire to increase your faith get to the word of God. Gods word is written down and preserved on the pages of your bible. The bible is the only word of God that has the Holy Spirit to lead and guide into the truth.
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus often quoted the OT and much of what He said showed who He was from the OT scriptures.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If you desire to increase your faith get to the word of God. Gods word is written down and preserved on the pages of your bible. The bible is the only word of God that has the Holy Spirit to lead and guide into the truth.
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus often quoted the OT and much of what He said showed who He was from the OT scriptures.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Until I left the Catholic church about 10 years ago and in the past year joined a Bible teaching Christian non-denominational church; I never really even took note of the fact that the book in the pew at the Catholic church was not the Bible ... they had their own little book they devised themselves. Today, that creeps me out.
K
You are leaving somethings out KenC. Like, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, the teaching office of the Church. The Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit. Just as the United States Supreme Court is the guardian and interpreter of the Constitution, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit is the guardian and interpreter of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
Now if we look at what you say, and if self-interpretation really were of the Holy Spirit, then 100% of the people would necessarily arrive at the same interpretation 100% of the time for "God is not a god of confusion" (1 Cor. 14:33). Wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, in the real world thats not the way it is. Hence... we have tens of thousands of differnt Protestant, non-Catholic denominations/sects, and tens of thousands differnt interpretations of Scripture. This is why the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is so important! Besides, is was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible in the first place. Which reminds me KenC. You do relize in 2Tim. 3:16, St. Paul was refurring to the Old Testament don't you? Yep, he was, cause the books of New Testament had not yet been compiled.
Again, what if the fella sitting beside you, reading the same Bible verse you are reading, but disagrees with your interpretation, and claims he too is being inspired by the Holy Spirit? Without any type of authority, how are you to know who's interpretation is correct, and who's is in error? Again...1Cor.14:33.
Yeah.... tell that to Martin Luther!
Moving on............
Pax Christi
Now if we look at what you say, and if self-interpretation really were of the Holy Spirit, then 100% of the people would necessarily arrive at the same interpretation 100% of the time for "God is not a god of confusion" (1 Cor. 14:33). Wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately, in the real world thats not the way it is. Hence... we have tens of thousands of differnt Protestant, non-Catholic denominations/sects, and tens of thousands differnt interpretations of Scripture. This is why the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is so important! Besides, is was the Catholic Church that compiled the books of the Bible in the first place. Which reminds me KenC. You do relize in 2Tim. 3:16, St. Paul was refurring to the Old Testament don't you? Yep, he was, cause the books of New Testament had not yet been compiled.
Again, what if the fella sitting beside you, reading the same Bible verse you are reading, but disagrees with your interpretation, and claims he too is being inspired by the Holy Spirit? Without any type of authority, how are you to know who's interpretation is correct, and who's is in error? Again...1Cor.14:33.
Yeah.... tell that to Martin Luther!
Moving on............
Pax Christi
The bible warns about following after traditions of men instead of keeping in the sound doctrine of God's word, yet you promote keeping traditions.
The traditions of the Catholic church have been manipulated and twisted over time to where the True message of Jesus has been skewed.
You are right God is not the author of confusion, but being right or wrong has nothing to do with authority.
It has to do with growth and maturing in the faith, even Apostle Paul 30 years after his conversion stated he was not perfect yet or fully mature in the faith yet. (Philippians 3)
Authority also doesn't mean a person can't be wrong at times, as Peter and Paul are two good examples of this. Peter stuck his foot in his mouth a couple of times, and Paul stated he was in the wrong at times.
Paul even gave extra things that he said he wished others would do, but did not command or say we had to obey them, it was just his personal perferences.
The Catholic church however adds things on and says they have to be followed........
The problem with your whole understanding is you ignore the growth and maturing in the faith, all believers have the Holy Spirit guiding them, but all believers still make mistakes and faulter at times.
We are not 100% controlled by the Holy Spirit, we are guided and helped by Him !!!
You don't now if you ever heard or read any defense for the papacy but you dismiss them because you think the volumes are too fat??? That's no rebuttal, it's an excuse. There are lots of short articles and videos, a search engine and a forum to ask questions.
Refuting Papal Myths - "The Papacy is Unbiblical and Unhistorical" | Catholic Answers
The papacy is easy to prove from scripture, early church fathers and ongoing history and it doesn't require fat volumes. What you cannot prove is your de-centralized early church, and that is what you are really defending. I don't think you can.
There is no record of Judas making infallible declarations.
Yea, but, the Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist. Yea, but...there have been, and are, sinners in it. Surprise, surprise. What you cannot see is a society made up of sinners with divine guidance. A human institution on earth guided by the Holy Spirit. Docetism (Gnosticism) says nothing on this earth can be holy. Not the Ark of the Covenant, not Jesus' own mother, not the Eucharist, and the superintendence of the Holy Spirit over the Church ended when the Bible fell from the sky. That's what is really "screwed up".
Refuting Papal Myths - "The Papacy is Unbiblical and Unhistorical" | Catholic Answers
The papacy is easy to prove from scripture, early church fathers and ongoing history and it doesn't require fat volumes. What you cannot prove is your de-centralized early church, and that is what you are really defending. I don't think you can.
There is no record of Judas making infallible declarations.
Yea, but, the Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist. Yea, but...there have been, and are, sinners in it. Surprise, surprise. What you cannot see is a society made up of sinners with divine guidance. A human institution on earth guided by the Holy Spirit. Docetism (Gnosticism) says nothing on this earth can be holy. Not the Ark of the Covenant, not Jesus' own mother, not the Eucharist, and the superintendence of the Holy Spirit over the Church ended when the Bible fell from the sky. That's what is really "screwed up".