misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[Mec99]

Fordman, the Scriptures from God does say ONLY God has the Truth and not the Catholic Church!

1 John 2:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP] I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

The anointing is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive when we receive Salvation. Its the anointing, the Holy Spirit. who teaches us, not the Catholic Church!

We have NO need that ANYONE, including the Catholic Church, should teach us because its the Holy Spirit that teaches us EVERYTHING and IS True!

This is why you cannot see the Truth fordman because you have not received the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit which you would have received if you only had accepted Salvation from Jesus!

But because you have rejected your Salvation, you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach you the Truth!

Repent fordman! Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior! Accept the Salvation He has for you! For without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit you are walking in darkness!

John 14:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 5:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Corinthians 6:19
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Ephesians 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

1 Thessalonians 1:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

The reason you do not have the Truth fordman is because you have never received Salvation and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why you are walking in darkness teaching as Doctrines from God the commandments of the Catholic Church.

 

[KenAllan]

How can the Pope declare that what he says is from God if he has never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior epostle?

Yes there are sinners in all churches, BUT the people running the Catholic Church have never accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Just look at Pope John Paul II who Worshiped Mary as his God. He never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior because he actually did Worship Mary as his God.

Just by listening to what you teach epostle we can see you have never accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Read the book of Acts epostle and you will see thousands of True Christian receiving the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit which you have in your darkness rejected!

Repent epostle. Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Pray to God asking Him to fill you with the Holy Spirit!

 

[epostle]

 

[epostle]

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work

​

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.

Many Protestants see the Catholic/Protestant split as a tragic necessity, although the staunchly anti-Catholic kind of Protestant often sees nothing tragic about it. Or if he does, the tragedy is that there ever was such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church that the Reformers had to separate from. His motto is "Come out from among them" and five centuries of Christian disunity has done nothing to cool his anti-Roman fervor.

Yet for most Protestants, even for most conservative Protestants, this is not so. They believe God "raised up" Luther and the other Reformers to restore the Gospel in its purity. They regret that this required a break with Roman Catholics (hence the tragedy) but fidelity to Christ, on their view, demanded it (hence the necessity).

Catholics agree with their more agreeable Protestant brethren that the sixteenth century division among Christians was tragic. But most Catholics who think about it also see it as unnecessary. At least unnecessary in the sense that what Catholics might regard as genuine issues raised by the Reformers could, on the Catholic view, have been addressed without the tragedy of dividing Christendom.

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work for Protestantism's principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer's conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can't be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the "full flowering of the principles of the Reformation"? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It's these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist.

His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That's one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

more here: Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

 

[notuptome]

Nice try notuptome, but as you can plainly see, nowhere in these Scripture passages you provided does it say Scripture alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, and nowhere does the Bible imply it.

(See post #482 of this thread)

I do not believe for a moment that you will see what you do not want to see.

To accept the bible as the sole divinely inspired source of truth completely vacates all of Romanism's self appointed authority.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Re: Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work

​

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here's what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan's expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary.

Many Protestants see the Catholic/Protestant split as a tragic necessity, although the staunchly anti-Catholic kind of Protestant often sees nothing tragic about it. Or if he does, the tragedy is that there ever was such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church that the Reformers had to separate from. His motto is "Come out from among them" and five centuries of Christian disunity has done nothing to cool his anti-Roman fervor.

Yet for most Protestants, even for most conservative Protestants, this is not so. They believe God "raised up" Luther and the other Reformers to restore the Gospel in its purity. They regret that this required a break with Roman Catholics (hence the tragedy) but fidelity to Christ, on their view, demanded it (hence the necessity).

Catholics agree with their more agreeable Protestant brethren that the sixteenth century division among Christians was tragic. But most Catholics who think about it also see it as unnecessary. At least unnecessary in the sense that what Catholics might regard as genuine issues raised by the Reformers could, on the Catholic view, have been addressed without the tragedy of dividing Christendom.

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work for Protestantism's principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer's conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can't be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the "full flowering of the principles of the Reformation"? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It's these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist.

His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That's one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

It is all about the soteriology Rome has an non-biblical view that produces no life. Rome's view produces only onus and burden. The biblical view produces life and liberty in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mec99]

Its NOT about who is right or who is wrong epostle and fordman. Its all about the both of you rejecting the teachings of the Holy Spirit for your man made traditions, teachings, and doctrines from the Catholic Church.

Even the Pharisees rejected Jesus! So its no surprise that you Catholics reject Jesus.

The Catholic Church has hardened its Heart against Jesus just like the Pharisees did in the days of Jesus.

Until you realize that you are walking in darkness you will never see the Truth that is before you in the Scriptures.

The Roman Catholic Church has done everything it can to keep both of you in bondage to the darkness. Will you ever consider accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle, fordman?

If you wait till after you die it will be too late for you.

 

[Mec99]

The Reformation was started by God through Martin Luther.

The whole Reformation was based on the verse, "the Just shall live by Faith".

Romans 1:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Its by Faith we follow Jesus. Its by Grace and Faith we receive Salvation.

We live by Faith and we follow Jesus by Faith epostle. Its this that is foreign to you epostle.

You are following Mary by your works, you are following the Catholic Church by your works. You are doing everything wrong epostle and because God has blinded your eyes, you cannot even see that you are doing everything wrong.

You can keep trying to receive your Salvation by your works, but it is a foolish wasteful life that you are living.

 

[epostle]

I do not believe for a moment that you will see what you do not want to see.

To accept the bible as the sole divinely inspired source of truth completely vacates all of Romanism's self appointed authority.

Stop saying "Romanism", it's insulting as it is stupid. Your flaming zinger "self appointed authority" is also stupid, you can't name the person who self appointed. You are pontificating without evidence.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

These verses, which have noting to do with sola scriptura, is used to somehow prove fordham is evil (because your false doctrine of sola scriptura cannot be defended). and you complain about self appointed authority.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Stop saying "Romanism", it's insulting as it is stupid. Your flaming zinger "self appointed authority" is also stupid, you can't name the person who self appointed. You are pontificating without evidence.

It is what it is! Your insulted because you have deceived yourself into thinking what is right in your own mind. Evidence has been provided against RC false teaching so much that it is ridiculous! LOL
God has brought many out of her so I wonder why he hasnt you?

My question is this: Why dont you and fordman go to a chatholic chat site where you will be in fellowship with others that believe the lies? Why stay here unless you enjoy strife and arguing?

 

[49]

It is what it is! Your insulted because you have deceived yourself into thinking what is right in your own mind. Evidence has been provided against RC false teaching so much that it is ridiculous! LOL
God has brought many out of her so I wonder why he hasnt you?

My question is this: Why dont you and fordman go to a chatholic chat site where you will be in fellowship with others that believe the lies? Why stay here unless you enjoy strife and arguing?

Amen and amen!!!

 

[HQ]

My main issues with Catholicism are as such:
2. Praying to the dead saints. The verses used to justify this by the Catholic church doesn't seem to say what Catholics think it says. The term "prayers of the saints" seems to more indicated the prayers of us on Earth, not those already in heaven. In any case, how do we know that the saints in heaven are hearing our prayers? How do we know God has given them permission to intercede for us?

Two things that many Catholics either overlook or simply don't understand is that 1) their prayers cannot be heard by Mary or the saints, and 2) only Jesus can mediate their petitions to the Father.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Amen and amen!!!

>> curtsey<<

 

[Willie-T]

Two things that many Catholics either overlook or simply don't understand is that 1) their prayers cannot be heard by Mary or the saints, and 2) only Jesus can mediate their petitions to the Father.

And here I thought Jesus taught His disciples to pray directly to their Father, God. Well, live and learn.

 

[Willie-T]

"Worshiping" is not a word in the Lord's vocabulary. It is a self fulfilling man made thing. The world has evolved; put away the past: join us in the here and now. Worship no longer exists in the real world

Huh? Could you explain that statement a bit more?

 

[fordman]

The Holy Spirit is given to all true believers, He is not given to only those in leadership roles !!!

Without some sort authority, all you have have is disunity, utter confusion, and bedlam. All the tens of thousands differnt Protestant/Non-Catholic denominations/sects, teaching, interpreting their version of Scripture is proof of that.

The bible warns about following after traditions of men instead of keeping in the sound doctrine of God's word, yet you promote keeping traditions.

The traditions of the Catholic church have been manipulated and twisted over time to where the True message of Jesus has been skewed.

By reading these two posts of yours, I think your meaning of the term tradition, and the Catholic Churches view of Tradition differ. Let me educate you on what the Catholic Church means by tradition, with the assistance of Catholicanswers.com. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).

You are right God is not the author of confusion, but being right or wrong has nothing to do with authority. It has to do with growth and maturing in the faith, even Apostle Paul 30 years after his conversion stated he was not perfect yet or fully mature in the faith yet. (Philippians 3)

But did the Apostle Paul claim that the Bible was sufficiant as a sole rule of faith as many here claim?

Authority also doesn't mean a person can't be wrong at times, as Peter and Paul are two good examples of this. Peter stuck his foot in his mouth a couple of times, and Paul stated he was in the wrong at times.

Something many non-Catholics on this forum should take note of, instead of claiming their interpretation of Scripture (supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit) is correct and everyone else's is in error. Hence the need of authority.

*

The Catholic church however adds things on and says they have to be followed........

How about some examples.

The problem with your whole understanding is you ignore the growth and maturing in the faith, all believers have the Holy Spirit guiding them, but all believers still make mistakes and faulter at times.

Yeah, but without any type of authority, and the tens of thousands differnt Protestant/non-Catholic denominatins/sects, all beleiving they are guided by the Holy Spirit, which one is going to admit they made a mistake, or they faulterd in their interpretation of Scripture? The Baptists? The S.D.A's? The Presbyterians? Or maybe the Anglicans, ect...ect... ? I'm pretty sure they will point their finger at one another, saying they are correct and the other guy is in error! Or do you think they would agree on the essentials, but disagree on secondary matters?

We are not 100% controlled by the Holy Spirit, we are guided and helped by Him !!!

Again, if the fella sitting next to you has a differnt interpretation of Scripture than you do, who is correctly guided, or helped by the Holy Spirit 100%.... him or you? For the Holy Spirit cannot be in error, one of you has to be.
　
　

Pax Christi

 

[HQ]

And here I thought Jesus taught His disciples to pray directly to their Father, God. Well, live and learn.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Does the Father listen to the petitions of the unsaved, or is there a required relationship with the Saviour? If I'm not mistaken Jesus' disciples were born again.

 

[fordman]

Fordman, the Scriptures from God does say ONLY God has the Truth and not the Catholic Church!

Mec99, I will only respond to this one sentence of your post, because you have proven to me and everyone else within this forum, you are not a person of their word. Again, back on page #462 O asked you to answer a handful of questions.

How about "You" showing the Book, Chapter, and verse where the Holy Spirit says to pray the "Sinners Prayer."

Or how about Bible studies? Show where in Scriptue the Holy Spirit tells us to have Bible Studies.

Or how about "Altar Calls"? Show what Book, Chapter, or verse in the Scriptures where the Holy Spirit says there is to be Altar Calls. (do you even have an altar in your church?)

Or How about the idea of ""Scripture interprets Scripture? Show me the Book, Chapter, and verse in the Scriptures where the Holy Spirit says Scripture interprets Scripture.

Or How about dancing and consuming of alcohol that some of todays Christian churches object too? Show me Book, Chapter, and verse in the Scriptures where these practices are wrong, and the Holy Spirit tells us they are to be avoided.

And you replied by saying:

I'll answer your question IF you first answer this question fordman.

Where in the Scriptures does God say Mary is our Mediator? Show me fordman using ONLY the Scriptures where God says Mary is also our Mediator!

I agreed with your request and answerd you on post #472. Well Mec99, it's been 30 posts and two pages later, and you have yet to keep your word. Here in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S., we have a term for people like you that don't keep their word.......... Scalawag!

 

[epostle]

My main issues with Catholicism are as such:

1. Faith plus works necessary for salvation. To be fair, I agree with the Catholic belief to some degree. I do not believe you can simply say you're saved because you have a mental acknowledgement of God's existence. The book of James, which has been referenced here already, says that even the demons know God exists - and they shudder. Simply knowing in your brain God is real and going to church on Sunday is not enough to be saved. You cannot do enough good stuff to get to heaven, because even our best actions are like dirty rags in God's sight. I suppose you could say that true faith leads to works. In the sense that if you truly have faith in God and Jesus's life, you will repent from sin. Am I saying what Catholic belief states?

No.
First, its not "faith plus works", its both. They are inseparable. Love is a work, an act of the will. Rip that out of faith and what's left?
Second, Catholicism does not teach salvation by works apart from Christ. "Works righteousness", what Catholics are constantly accused of, is Pelagianism, a heresy contemned by the Church (Council of Orange) 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet the myth won't go away.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19 (as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.​

Justification by Faith Alone

2. Praying to the dead saints. The verses used to justify this by the Catholic church doesn't seem to say what Catholics think it says. The term "prayers of the saints" seems to more indicated the prayers of us on Earth, not those already in heaven. In any case, how do we know that the saints in heaven are hearing our prayers? How do we know God has given them permission to intercede for us?

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can they hear us? Find out here: Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Those are my two largest quarrels. The first one being the biggie. Salvation is the essential thing. Everything else is commentary.

[video]http://www.catholic.com/video/what-do-catholics-believe-about-salvation[/video]

 

[fordman]

My question is this: Why dont you and fordman go to a chatholic chat site where you will be in fellowship with others that believe the lies? Why stay here unless you enjoy strife and arguing?

Lies, arguing????....what lies? What arguing? I think the only reason you want us to exit this forum is because we are making you uncomfortable. I think you are starting to see (from us Catholics in the forum) all the negativity you've been taught about Catholicism, just might not be true, and that there just might be something good in reguards to our Catholic faith! And that's okay. Keep peeking in on our discussions Blondie, so to continue hearing the truth of Catholicism from Catholics that live the faith.
　


Pax Christi