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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
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I understand what you are saying here and I too was brought up believing in the same thing.

I am suggesting that God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen in the sense as if He is giving His permission for death and destruction to come to others so that He will show His goodness.

I believe we live in a corrupt world and in that corruption things occur that are not directly from God. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and what the fall of Adam did to bring this corruption into this world.

All death and destruction that is in the world is the foul offspring of having sin enter our world. There is no darkness in God. But His life reveals darkness and "creates" it because it opposes the very life and love of God.

God will "allow" you to go kill everyone in your work place but He is not authorizing it personally so that He can get glory out of it even though He can come and turn that work of the devil to something beautiful. That's the context that I am speaking of in terms of "allowing".

As far as Job goes - there are different views on exactly what happened between God and satan in the book of Job. Different translations and perspectives show a different view. I can send you links for this if you are interested in looking at them.

Yes, we are called to actively participate in seeing God's will happen on earth. We are called to witness to the unsaved because it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. We are called to pray because prayer changes things., the fervent prayer of a "righteous man" availeth much. And righteous means a child of God.

Our prayers and our actions matter to God and the world we are in. Where we go as His saints changes things. If we go into a business or our work place we bring salt and light by our very attendance. Then we have the opportunity to do a good job and bring light into a dark place.

There have been many nights (based on the fact that I'm a believer) I have walked the halls in the buildings I work in and prayed in tongues for the residents living there. I don't know all their situations but God does and He prompts us to pray for those we come in contact with. Even if it's in proximity to just the building we are in. He uses us. I'm sure people have prayed for me too over the years.

We "get to" join in with the Holy Spirit to see His will be done. It's a JOY and a thrill to know God hears us because of Christ and He sets us up to do a job for Him wherever we are.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I understand what you are saying here and I too was brought up believing in the same thing.

I am suggesting that God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen in the sense as if He is giving His permission for death and destruction to come to others so that He will show His goodness.

I believe we live in a corrupt world and in that corruption things occur that are not directly from God. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and what the fall of Adam did to bring this corruption into this world.

All death and destruction that is in the world is the foul offspring of having sin enter our world. There is no darkness in God. But His life reveals darkness and "creates" it because it opposes the very life and love of God.

God will "allow" you to go kill everyone in your work place but He is not authorizing it personally so that He can get glory out of it even though He can come and turn that work of the devil to something beautiful. That's the context that I am speaking of in terms of "allowing".

As far as Job goes - there are different views on exactly what happened between God and satan in the book of Job. Different translations and perspectives show a different view. I can send you links for this if you are interested in looking at them.
a few thoughts.


1. God did allow that person to be blind for the soul purpose of doing his will.
2. God does allow cancer in some people.. so they can be a blessing to other people. (he also gibes thorns in the flesh for th ebenefit of people. That thorn could be sickness, Financial distress, or many things)
3. God does allow things to happen, And he promises, to those who love God, something good will come out of it.

I pray no matter what the circumstance, we are not saying God can not take something evil. and make something good come out of it.. And remember, God could stop it if he wanted, There is a reason he saved one life, and does not save another.. (think of a direct hit of a tornado where a child dies, but the parent lives, god had the power to save them both, why did he not? ) I do not think we should question why.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I understand what you are saying here and I too was brought up believing in the same thing.

I am suggesting that God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen in the sense as if He is giving His permission for death and destruction to come to others so that He will show His goodness.

I believe we live in a corrupt world and in that corruption things occur that are not directly from God. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and what the fall of Adam did to bring this corruption into this world.

All death and destruction that is in the world is the foul offspring of having sin enter our world. There is no darkness in God. But His life reveals darkness and "creates" it because it opposes the very life and love of God.

God will "allow" you to go kill everyone in your work place but He is not authorizing it personally so that He can get glory out of it even though He can come and turn that work of the devil to something beautiful. That's the context that I am speaking of in terms of "allowing".

As far as Job goes - there are different views on exactly what happened between God and satan in the book of Job. Different translations and perspectives show a different view. I can send you links for this if you are interested in looking at them.
To my mind, this doesn't appear quite right...no one can come into my place of work (not that I have one, lol) and shoot and kill me apart from God allowing it to occur. He has numbered every hair on my head and knows exactly when it my time to go be with Him and knows exactly how I will die. No evil will come to me like that before it is my time. That would be my life depending on what evil desires and not what God desires. Don't know if I got my thought across clearly there...
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Here are just a few small questions out of thousands that could be asked...

Since it's God's will that none should perish but that all would come to repentance., how come some are not going to come?

God's Word tells us to seek Godly wisdom., if we don't seek it will we find and have it?

Since God's Word tells us to Trust in Him with all our heart and lean not to our own understanding...in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our paths. If we don't acknowledge Him is He going to direct our paths anyway?

The Bible says that My people perish for lack of knowledge... What happened? Did God fail because His people lacked knowledge and perished?



 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
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To the OP and anyone else. This IS a copy and paste of something I started a thread with a while ago, before the OP joined. It explains what the Bible says, in the original languages.

"Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.

As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)


Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.

If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10


Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:

The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.

Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.

All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.


The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts

a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.

"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22

It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)

c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8


The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.

(I'm going to add another post after this one, that deals in greater depth with Isa. 53.)

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins"
rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.


Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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On Isa. 53, lest anyone say I am just ignoring what it is about, because of my own viewpoint! (Also a copy and paste that I wrote myself, before the OP was here!)

Look at the context of Isa. 53:5-6 (And do not leave off verse 6, because it is important in context!) It is about SIN!! Not about healing. Even the Septuagint acknowledges that. Israel was sin sick and needed "healing!" Healing from what? Let's look at the verses again.


"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6


Let's see the main words:

transgressions
iniquities
chastisement
gone astray
turned our own way
the iniquity of us all.



These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 4th line and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins.


There there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV"

Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.

bore our sins
die to sin
live to righteousness.


So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.

Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!

In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?

They are about salvation from sin and evil!

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12

Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one line, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's.

And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.


"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1;1-6


The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel.

Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.

What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.

Last part of verse 5 says,

"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."


Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!

Why are they affected?

Because they are a people:

laden with iniquity
offspring of evil doers
children who deal corruptly
forsake the Lord
despised the Holy One of Israel
utterly estranged Verse 4

This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?

"And he said, “Go, and say to this people:“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11


Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.

Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.

"Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil." Isa. 1:5-6

Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.

Wounds - sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God, get it??

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10


See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!

Another reason why both WoF and Hypergrace are such dangerous heresies. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twist them beyond recognition from what the Bible says

"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21

PS Please notice how I post my verses in red. I try and do this, because I like to see in my posts, more than just one line verses thrown out. Above, I have put longer passages in, which is necessary to understand what Isa. 53 is about. I hope everyone will see how easy it is to just pull part of a verse or a verse out of context. I tried to do a thorough analysis of the words. People can then understand the context of all of Isaiah and specifically Isa. 53. A prophet, like the other prophets, who prophesy against Israel because of her sins. And Isa. 53 is the hope that a Saviour will come and save the people from their sins.


My challenge to all is that you read Isaiah and all the Old Testament prophets, and then you will understand the message of the Bible. That we are a sinful and evil people, and Jesus came to save us from our sins and make us righteous.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
113
Finally, here is the simple and easy version of why healing is not in the atonement!

The basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity is included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. I can cite testimonies, including my own concerning how people are not always healed, and how God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Some people have a different view of scripture on healing. If others think differently - then that is their opinion and their own choice and they are entitled to it.

Under the Old Covenant God said in Deut. that no diseases would be upon them if they followed the law of Moses. The writer of Hebrews says that we have New Covenant built upon better promises - that the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.

Is the Old Covenant really better now then the New one? O
f course not.

Here is David speaking of healing.

Psalm 103:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;


Healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there
they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]
At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and
had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP]
said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...
where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the forgiveness of sins is.


Here Jesus relates healing to forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 9:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk'?

[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—then He *said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."
 
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trucker62

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Anyone who has been saved knows the Lord Jesus Christ. Job, knew his Savior and knew he had an Advocate for him. Job knew his redeemer.

The Lord Jesus Christ Christ ALLOWS satan to test us. Satan, in his own twisted mind is trying to thwart Gods plan, and God is using him to advance His plan.

Use Paul for a example. Satan used a demon/fallen angel to thwart Pauls Gospel message. But God used that to stop Paul from becoming arrogant.

Satan says," I will attack Paul and STOP his Gospel message." And God allows it, because he knows Paul will become arrogant when all his "followers" will say " I am from Paul."
Job 9:32-35 For he is not a man as I am, that I may answer Him, and that we should go to court together. Nor is there any mediator between us, who may lay his hand on us both.


James 1: 13 Let NO ONE say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

14-15 He goes on to say each of us are tempted by our own lust and desires. He then states this, because people are being deceived thinking God is the author of test, trials and temptations.

17 DO NOT BE DECEIVED my beloved Brethren, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the FATHER of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Matt 7: 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask for a fish, will he give him a snake. If you being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children, HOW MUCH MORE shall your Father which is in Heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Even the evil world knows that good cannot dish out evil.

The whole chapter of 2 Corinthians 11 and Philippians 3:4-21 reveal Paul did not have a pride problem. He said boasting was foolish he counted all his accomplishments as dung, both good and bad.

In Corinthians, He said if anyone could have boasted it was me, but lets get past this and get to the crux of the matter. He was dealing with false teachers who thought so highly of themselves and their so called education in the Law. He was actually mocking them. You want to boast? Ok lets boast, and he list his qualifications he could have reveled in but did not. Technically, he could have boasted because he was more qualified than anyone to teach about the Law. Paul was fighting the Message of mixture where the Jews Leaders were saying you must keep the Law under the new covenant.

Pauls thorn was not a messenger from Satan sent by God to keep Paul from being in pride and Satan certainly did not try to stop Paul from getting in pride, he knew it would destroy him and the message of the resurrection.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Paul says - happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he believes. Let him have their own faith before God so people are allowed to have a different opinion on subjects such as healing.

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father but the Son and He has come to reveal Him to men. Jesus came to do the will of the Father.

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father as well as the will of the Father.

If we want to see what the Father's will is concerning a subject - see what Jesus did while He was on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views sinners - look to see how Jesus interacted with them. ( both the prostitutes and the religious Pharisees )

If we want to see if it's God's will to heal people in their physical bodies - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth. He healed "all" that came to Him. He does not change.

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

Jesus and the Father are One in their nature, purpose and love.

There is not one time - NOT one time where some one who came to Jesus for healing - that was not healed. He healed all that came to Him. There are many scriptures that attest to this fact.

No where do we find anywhere in Jesus' life where do we see any of these things being said by Jesus to anyone;

1) I can't heal you because God is trying to teach you something.

2) I can't heal you because you have sin in your life.

3) I can't heal you because you have not forgiven your mother-in-law. ( or anyone )

4) I can't heal you because you have not been eating and exercising properly. ( They were all on the Mediterranean Diet too...:) )

5) I can't heal you because God wants you to suffer with this sickness so that you will learn to trust in Him.

None of these things ever occurred although we have been taught by some of our church teachings that they are true. There is no evidence in the life of Jesus - in fact - the evidence is the complete opposite of what we have been taught in some circles.

Everyone is free to have the faith that they have before God. I won't insult or de-mean nor try to "lord it over their faith" if they choose to believe something else.

I will not call them a "cult" because of their unbelief in God's word on the subject that is different from others nor will I say that they are now "in heresy". I expect others to act with the same respect towards others as well.

God bless you.

We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of understanding what Christ has done for us on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and are raised to newness of life. One day we will get incorruptible bodies where we will not be attacked. Thank you Jesus!
 
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joaniemarie

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Jan 4, 2017
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LOL...Yeehaw!

I believe that what the scripture says about the knowledge of the glory/goodness of the Lord is being manifested.

Habakkuk 2:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.

Ephesians 1:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.


I believe the Lord in these last days are giving to the body of Christ a Daniel type understanding in the knowledge of the goodness/glory of the Lord and sometimes we need to have a "dissolving of doubts" done to help with the renewing of our minds to the true nature of God.

Daniel 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I have heard of thee, that thou canst make interpretations, and dissolve doubts: now if thou canst read the writing, and make known to me the interpretation thereof, thou shalt be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about thy neck, and shalt be the third ruler in the kingdom.




Was just reading over some of the posts here and yesterday didn't get a chance to comment on this verse in your post Grace777


I believe the Lord in these last days are giving to the body of Christ a Daniel type understanding in the knowledge of the goodness/glory of the Lord and sometimes we need to have a "dissolving of doubts" done to help with the renewing of our minds to the true nature of God.


Over these last few years I've also been convicted of this same truth Grace777. We Christians need to have any doubts about God's love in Christ for us "dissolved". Any doubts have to be totally swept away from our thought processes. Anything that does not conform to the truth of God's love for us in Christ now as well as into eternity future is to be disposed of 100%.

There are anointed to preach preachers and teachers who have been sent for us by God who have ministries for the very subject of dissolving doubts about God's love for us in Christ.




Daniel 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I have heard of thee, that thou canst make interpretations, and dissolve doubts: now if thou canst read the writing, and make known to me the interpretation thereof, thou shalt be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about thy neck, and shalt be the third ruler in the kingdom.


I've been blessed to notice that while walking out this truth about His will being these doubts are to be dissolved, He gives encouragements along the way of learning. Using the Holy Spirit to minister during those times of being assaulted by doubt from the enemy to stop us from moving forward in His love and grace.

The enemy seeks to steal the Word from our hearts as soon as it's sown. he wants to snatch it away. he knows if we have a bold confidence in God's love and grace for us., we will move forward while not being moved from our confidence in Christ.
 
W

wsblind

Guest


Pauls thorn was not a messenger from Satan sent by God to keep Paul from being in pride and Satan certainly did not try to stop Paul from getting in pride, he knew it would destroy him and the message of the resurrection.
I don't believe that a messenger from satan was sent by God to Paul. God would never do that.

But He will ALLOW satan to test us. And satan is going to zero in on believers who are advancing Gods plan in this world.

Paul was THE guy who was advancing Gods plan in this world..........satan is going to do his level best to stop it.

Satans motive wasn't to make Paul proud. His motive was to STOP Pauls message. God, being omniscient saw that Paul was going to have followers that put Paul on the throne rather than Christ. And Paul could have become proud of this recognition.......so God allowed satan to persecute Paul.

Satans motive~~Stop Paul and make him weak.

Gods motive~~Allow it because My man will see my strength in his weakness and pride will not overtake him.
 

joaniemarie

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Jan 4, 2017
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I'm considering as I read different people's posts here on this thread.....since God has given us the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth to live in and by the Spirit. And when we do live that way (by the Spirit) the Bible says of such there is no law that can teach that sort of stuff because it is above any kind of law in need of controlling the flesh because those controlled by the Spirit are not walking in the flesh. That sort of enduring truth can only be taught by the Spirit. Why would God then go against that whole process by bringing back in the law to teach us spiritual things?

When we learn from the Spirit and by the Spirit these things are spiritually discerned. Yes, if God has to., He uses what is available in our lives like when we have been foolish and give satan a foothold in our lives to dump on us his lies and also his attacks. Many Christians are weak about many things and open themselves up to getting defeated.

But when I consider a man like Paul who is God's man for that time., he learned how to be a humble man who knew what it was like to be a leader and then to be basically an outlaw from the very Jewish leaders he was once a part of. Paul understood rejection from his own people on both sides of the tracks.

Paul was able to see things from God that many of us have not seen. So why do so many Christians think Paul's "pride" would be a problem when he was most certainly a recipient of major spiritual blessings in REAL heavenly places? If anything., Paul being THAT close to Jesus would make a him even more Christ centered. He would not grow in carnal pride but he would grow in grace and knowledge and power in the Holy Spirit.

So I don't believe carnal pride was the issue. I agree with the Christians who believe it was the enemy who wanted to shut down Paul. Paul was a man who had such a close walk with Christ and experienced the JOY of his salvation. Paul understood better than anyone that in his flesh he is weak and so he learned the truth about putting no confidence in the flesh so that the power of God would be revealed in him. A man of faith like that is very dangerous to the kingdom of darkness. And satan's attacks on Paul were vamped up more so than with a Christian who is not doing anything for Christ that will last.
 
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Pride is of the flesh and comes from the flesh. We are told to walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Walking by the spirit within us is God's method for overcoming the works of the flesh and the false belief systems we can acquire in our minds. I don't believe God uses a messenger sent by satan to stop pride from occurring.

Walking by the spirit is God's prescription for not walking by the flesh - not demonic spirits sent to destroy us. Gal. 5:16, 25-26

Galatians 5:25-26 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


Paul was preaching the gospel of the grace of God and he had the revelation of what actually happened to us Christians when Christ died on the cross and rose again. The truth that we too died with Christ and have risen to newness of life in Him and that one day we will have an immortal body is the gospel message.


James says that "God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble". God gave grace to Paul so I don't believe he wasn't full of pride.

I don't believe for a second that God sends demons to attack His beloved children when they are out preaching the gospel. All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Satan and his horde come for the "word" that is being sown and he will try to kill those that are following God by the Spirit and preaching the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
 

BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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On Isa. 53, lest anyone say I am just ignoring what it is about, because of my own viewpoint! (Also a copy and paste that I wrote myself, before the OP was here!)

Look at the context of Isa. 53:5-6 (And do not leave off verse 6, because it is important in context!) It is about SIN!! Not about healing. Even the Septuagint acknowledges that. Israel was sin sick and needed "healing!" Healing from what? Let's look at the verses again.


"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6


Let's see the main words:

transgressions
iniquities
chastisement
gone astray
turned our own way
the iniquity of us all.



These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 4th line and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins.


There there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV"

Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.

bore our sins
die to sin
live to righteousness.


So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.

Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!

In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?

They are about salvation from sin and evil!

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12

Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one line, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's.

And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.


"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1;1-6


The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel.

Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.

What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.

Last part of verse 5 says,

"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."


Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!

Why are they affected?

Because they are a people:

laden with iniquity
offspring of evil doers
children who deal corruptly
forsake the Lord
despised the Holy One of Israel
utterly estranged Verse 4

This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?

"And he said, “Go, and say to this people:“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11


Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.

Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.

"Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil." Isa. 1:5-6

Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.

Wounds - sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God, get it??

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10


See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!

Another reason why both WoF and Hypergrace are such dangerous heresies. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twist them beyond recognition from what the Bible says

"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21

PS Please notice how I post my verses in red. I try and do this, because I like to see in my posts, more than just one line verses thrown out. Above, I have put longer passages in, which is necessary to understand what Isa. 53 is about. I hope everyone will see how easy it is to just pull part of a verse or a verse out of context. I tried to do a thorough analysis of the words. People can then understand the context of all of Isaiah and specifically Isa. 53. A prophet, like the other prophets, who prophesy against Israel because of her sins. And Isa. 53 is the hope that a Saviour will come and save the people from their sins.


My challenge to all is that you read Isaiah and all the Old Testament prophets, and then you will understand the message of the Bible. That we are a sinful and evil people, and Jesus came to save us from our sins and make us righteous.
Are we just going to pretend that Isaiah 53:4 wasn't quoted in Matthew 8:16-17 and in context its about deliverance and healing? I see you mentioned Isaiah 53:5-6, but if you just go back one verse we have a verse that does speak on healing, and its proven to be speaking of such through Matthew 8:16-17.

[h=1]Matthew 8:16-17
King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.[/FONT]

I understand that verses five through six are about spiritual healing, and how we needed to be saved from our sins by our Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, that is the context of those verses, but verse 4 is about healing, a verse prior to the ones you addressed. A verse quoted in the NT as Jesus cast out demons and healed all that were sick, to fulfill prophecy.
 
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Are we just going to pretend that Isaiah 53:4 wasn't quoted in Matthew 8:16-17 and in context its about deliverance and healing? I see you mentioned Isaiah 53:5-6, but if you just go back one verse we have a verse that does speak on healing, and its proven to be speaking of such through Matthew 8:16-17.

Matthew 8:16-17
King James Version (KJV)


16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

I understand that verses five through six are about spiritual healing, and how we needed to be saved from our sins by our Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, that is the context of those verses, but verse 4 is about healing, a verse prior to the ones you addressed. A verse quoted in the NT as Jesus cast out demons and healed all that were sick, to fulfill prophecy.

One could possibly say that those demons casted out and those sicknesses that Jesus healed are all "metaphorical" of something else.

Jesus even said that healing is the "children's bread" when the Gentile woman came for healing for her child. She still accessed the healing that is in Christ by exhibiting great faith.

Jesus said that He had not seen such faith in all of Israel in this woman. Same goes for the Gentile Roman Centurion officer that said to speak the word only and my servant will be healed. These two Gentiles exhibited great faith in Jesus and none of the Jews had this kind of faith.

How do we get true biblical faith? By hearing of Christ Himself. Romans 10:17

We see a picture of this in the healing of the woman with the issue of blood. When she heard of Jesus....

Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

I believe the Jews had little to no faith because they were constantly taught the Law of Moses. Paul said the Law is NOT of faith. The number one barrier to faith can sometimes be the type of church we go to and the messages we hear.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Are we just going to pretend that Isaiah 53:4 wasn't quoted in Matthew 8:16-17 and in context its about deliverance and healing? I see you mentioned Isaiah 53:5-6, but if you just go back one verse we have a verse that does speak on healing, and its proven to be speaking of such through Matthew 8:16-17.

Matthew 8:16-17
King James Version (KJV)


16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

I understand that verses five through six are about spiritual healing, and how we needed to be saved from our sins by our Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, that is the context of those verses, but verse 4 is about healing, a verse prior to the ones you addressed. A verse quoted in the NT as Jesus cast out demons and healed all that were sick, to fulfill prophecy.
I did deal with this in post #185 above.


While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
Oh, wait, I left out the part about the LXX, I think! The LXX translates the Hebrew about 300 BC. "He himself bore out sins." Because these people knew Hebrew, and they did know what the intent of Isa. 53:4 was! I mean, it is pretty simple when you read the context of the chapter, and let's face it, all of Isaiah. Have you ever read the whole book through? Or any of the prophets? None of those books was about physical healing, let alone guaranteed healing, but rather that the Messiah would come to heal the sin sickness of Israel.

I also dealt with 1 Peter 2:24, the other direct citation of Isa. 53 in the NT. You can go back and find it just under the above quote.


And of course the context is healing! Jesus was healing the sick! It was an important part of his ministry on earth. Jesus did heal the sick! I would never say otherwise.

The question is - did that mean it was part of the atonement and everyone should receive healing, as part of the atonement? In other words, as I already said, healing is NOT part of the atonement, but it was definitely part of Jesus ministry.

The fact is, evidence bears out the fact, as I again, have already said, that everyone who comes to the cross, believes and repents is saved! But, healing is nowhere guaranteed as an automatic, be it by faith, or by the sovereign hand of God. Healing in the atonement is a lie! And good hermeneutics, even if Matt 8:17 did point to healing in the atonement, (which it does not!) requires a lot more than one verse in the Old Testament and two out of context quotations of Isa. 53 in the NT! You simply cannot make a major doctrine like this out of a few sketchy verses. Look up how many times salvation from sin being provided for in the atonement, and you will find a MASSIVE number of verses. In fact, the entire Bible from Gen. 3 to Rev. 22 is about this!

This entire Word Faith doctrine is a judgemental and condemning theology. Because if healing is truly in the atonement, then every Christian should be well. And if they are not, these people make the suffering feel horrible when they are already suffering and sick. Or dead, like my friend who refused treatment for her cancer, so convinced (wrongly) that she would be healed. She was a woman of great faith. But she died because of her faulty Word Faith beliefs!

And I have heard many stories like this. Only today, someone sent me a pm speaking of someone they knew with a serious autoimmune disease, and being told she did not have enough faith, because she was not healed. Talk about hitting a person when they are down!

I think it takes a lot more faith to walk with God when you are sick, than when everything is magically perfect. Well, except it is never magically perfect in this lifetime for anyone!

Walking with God, means trusting him in the good times, and the hard times, too! Because when your faith is tested by pain, by losing a loved one, bad finances or anything else, and you come out of it being closer to God, then your faith is so strong, and no one can steal it away with lies, scriptural misinterpretations or judgment and condemnation.

Some day, you will all face something wrong in your life. I pray God will touch your hearts and lives like he did me, through suffering! Please do not bury your heads in the sand, pretending this false doctrine is correct. I have listed all the reasons it is not true, but the same people cling to the lie!

Isaiah was told this by God in Isa. 6. It concerned the Jews in his day, but it also concerned the Pharisees in Jesus day, and I do think it applies to those who follow the Word Faith doctrine in our age. And if you want the answer to the question "Healed of what? Read Isa. 1:4! Sin, my friends! Sin is the answer!

This seriously is addressed to the blinded and unhearing people who keep promoting this lie of a doctrine!


"And He replied:Go! Say to these people:
Keep listening, but do not understand;
keep looking, but do not perceive.
10 Dull the minds of these people;
deafen their ears and blind their eyes;
otherwise they might see with their eyes
and hear with their ears,
understand with their minds,
turn back, and be healed." Isa. 6:9-10 HCSB


" He said, “Go and tell this people:“‘Listen hard, but you aren’t going to get it;
look hard, but you won’t catch on.’
Make these people blockheads,
with fingers in their ears and blindfolds on their eyes,
So they won’t see a thing,
won’t hear a word,
So they won’t have a clue about what’s going on
and, yes, so they won’t turn around and be made whole.” Message Isa. 6:9-10

(Oh sinful nation,

people weighed down with iniquity,
brood of evildoers,
depraved children!
They have abandoned the Lord;
they have despised the Holy One of Israel;
they have turned their backs on Him." Isa. 1:4

Isa. is about healing from sin, not physical healing!
 
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A lot of what I read in these posts has a lot of truth. Since I have read the bible daily for 54 years and have been a member of the Baptist and also the Charismatic Churches, and some experiences with God, I will contribute my two cents worth to. First, I believe it is possible for God to do today with a Christian the same things He did with Christians in the NT. On the other hand, I tend to believe that most of the time God allows the natural order of this physical creation to run it's natural course. I am not saying God never does supernatural things, but most of the time Christians have to go through the same things as anyone else in this natural world. Another thing, I am completely convinced that no one can hold a healing service and have miracles occur at their bidding. That does not mean that a Christian in a healing service cannot be healed, however it is entirely up to God, not the man running the show. I have had a few supernatural healings myself, however most of the time I have went through sickness just like everyone else. I had God supernaturally put gas in my car one time, however the rest of the time I have had to buy gas like everyone else. Several times I have had God speak to my mind and warn me of danger, however most of the time I have found out bad things just like anyone else. I was run over by a transport truck one time and the moment my mind became alert I begin to say, "with Jesus stripes I am healed", later I was able to move and went with my friend back to my car that was being picked up. The tow truck man was remarking how he knew the man in that car could not have survived when my friend said, here he is. I still remember the look of total disbelief on the face of the tow truck man. Do I believe in miracles, absolutely, however we cannot cause them to happen, it has to be God. I have had supernatural things happen to me, but not at all common or regular. I have heard God the Father speak to me for maybe 30 minutes, Jesus spoke directly to me twice, I saw and heard Jesus speak in the spirit realm once. Twice I have listened to the Holy Spirit speak, and that was audible. Remember, I have been a Christian for 58 years and have read the bible daily for 54 years, so that is not really all that much over a lifetime. Also, I have left out some other experiences. Anyway, God is still God, so we can ask in faith, however what happens is still up to the Lord.
 
Apr 4, 2017
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To the OP and anyone else. This IS a copy and paste of something I started a thread with a while ago, before the OP joined. It explains what the Bible says, in the original languages.

"Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.

As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)


Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.

If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10


Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:

The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.

Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.

All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.


The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts

a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.

"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22

It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)

c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8


The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.

(I'm going to add another post after this one, that deals in greater depth with Isa. 53.)

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins"
rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.


Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
I say this with a heavy heart, but most people I know that are in the WOF movement and have been deceived by the health/wealth false teachings and do condemn others are in condemnation themselves.....I have watched them then suffer the same or even worse health issues that the people the condemned....even worse I have watched them die, because they cannot admit to people they are battling a disease process for fear of being further condemned....

The WOF false gospel is a gospel of fear and we know that there is no fear in perfect love and this in of itself, should want people to stay away....Thank you for courage sister....
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
A lot of what I read in these posts has a lot of truth. Since I have read the bible daily for 54 years and have been a member of the Baptist and also the Charismatic Churches, and some experiences with God, I will contribute my two cents worth to. First, I believe it is possible for God to do today with a Christian the same things He did with Christians in the NT. On the other hand, I tend to believe that most of the time God allows the natural order of this physical creation to run it's natural course. I am not saying God never does supernatural things, but most of the time Christians have to go through the same things as anyone else in this natural world. Another thing, I am completely convinced that no one can hold a healing service and have miracles occur at their bidding. That does not mean that a Christian in a healing service cannot be healed, however it is entirely up to God, not the man running the show. I have had a few supernatural healings myself, however most of the time I have went through sickness just like everyone else. I had God supernaturally put gas in my car one time, however the rest of the time I have had to buy gas like everyone else. Several times I have had God speak to my mind and warn me of danger, however most of the time I have found out bad things just like anyone else. I was run over by a transport truck one time and the moment my mind became alert I begin to say, "with Jesus stripes I am healed", later I was able to move and went with my friend back to my car that was being picked up. The tow truck man was remarking how he knew the man in that car could not have survived when my friend said, here he is. I still remember the look of total disbelief on the face of the tow truck man. Do I believe in miracles, absolutely, however we cannot cause them to happen, it has to be God. I have had supernatural things happen to me, but not at all common or regular. I have heard God the Father speak to me for maybe 30 minutes, Jesus spoke directly to me twice, I saw and heard Jesus speak in the spirit realm once. Twice I have listened to the Holy Spirit speak, and that was audible. Remember, I have been a Christian for 58 years and have read the bible daily for 54 years, so that is not really all that much over a lifetime. Also, I have left out some other experiences. Anyway, God is still God, so we can ask in faith, however what happens is still up to the Lord.


Hi Samual., I agree with some of the things you posted mostly on the action side of things. I'll cut and paste the words that I particularly want to comment on.

You said;

On the other hand, I tend to believe that most of the time God allows the natural order of this physical creation to run it's natural course. I am not saying God never does supernatural things, but most of the time Christians have to go through the same things as anyone else in this natural world. Another thing, I am completely convinced that no one can hold a healing service and have miracles occur at their bidding.



The amazing thing I've discovered is when I believe His Word and rely on His love and grace, quite often God has not allowed the natural order of things to happen in my life. The Holy Spirit and the Word challenge me to dare to believe He loves me and has a good path for me to be on but first I have to dare to believe He loves me and is waiting to do those things He promises in the Bible.


He wants me to believe we are different than the world because they don't have an Advocate (Jesus Christ). Having Jesus changes everything in the spiritual and natural. He wants me to believe that because of Jesus, I'm loved and protected and have a right to the things Jesus died to give me. I'm to call on Him and have great expectations of what He will do because the promises are gifted to me by Jesus Himself.

I know from the Bible and in my spirit that this way of thinking and living pleases Him very much. I no longer consider myself "no different" than the rest of the world. Jesus died on the cross for me and took my sin away from me and God doesn't see sin when He sees me anymore.

I agree with you that no one holds a healing service and has healing happen at "their bidding". The Holy Spirit moves just as He decides and He never contradicts the Bible. I've found that knowing what the Bible says and being in "agreement" with God is something each of us are responsible to do if we want Him to show up like that. And we each have a long way to go in that dept. but He goes with us according the the grace provided which is amazing and we don't deserve it but we get it because of Jesus.


I've also noticed and now look forward to the Holy Spirit's verification along the way. This makes life so very exciting as well as puts things in perspective. Like you I've experienced miracles that I like to call His verification along the way. This shows me how He likes to shower love and affection on me. Letting me know He is in fact in these "little" matters that no one but me knows or cares about.

Why does the God of the universe who knows every person since the beginning of time have time for me? This just boggles my brain but it is also a gift to take by faith that He is right there with us caring about our thoughts and our issues. The most important thing in all this is to know He loves me (that much) and wants me to believe Him regardless of the oppositions in life. And to be careful not to compare myself to others. His instruction is to always look to Jesus and not to look to the right or to the left. Above all the truths in the Bible., the most important one that holds all the others is God loves us in Christ.

Saved by grace through faith in Christ and living our daily lives by grace through faith in Christ.