My grace is sufficient...

[Grace777x70]

You do know that in context this verse is talking about King Cyrus, who was a pagan and very evil King that God used to free Israel right!?!?!?.....This verse is telling us that God will use Evil to accomplish his perfect will.....

I know it's about Cyrus and I also agree that God will take any evil that comes from man or devil and create His goodness and redemption out of it. He doesn't "create" it so that He can use it. I believe it is created by the fact it shows up when the light is shone on it to see exactly what it is and it's true nature is revealed. It just exposes what is there to begin with.

Nothing that evil has done will ever stop the plan and purposes of God from coming into being.

Calling everyone that has a different opinion then you do a "hireling" exposes things too.

 

[phil36]

I'm glad you brought John 9 up.

John 9:3-4 is a perfect example of the translators putting punctuation marks in the place that they wanted it in order to show a bias they had when interpreting the scripture. In the original Greek - there were no punctuation marks. Also they put in their own words - "it was" and "that" and again "it was".

John 9:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

So, let's read it without what man has added to the text and without the period.

"Jesus answered, neither this man sinned, nor his parents; but so that the works of God might be displayed in him we must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work. "

This changes the meaning of this scripture. The translators thought that the sickness was there so that God could be glorified but in reality Jesus said that "He must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is still day." Jesus then proceeded to heal the man. The works of God are to heal those that are sick and broken-hearted.

Jesus was simply saying that neither this man sinned nor his parents but Jesus must work the works of God while He was there and the work of God was to make this man whole. It is the will of God for all of us to be well. Not all of us will experience this for various reasons but it doesn't not change the heart and will of our loving Father. It is the will of the Father that all men come to repentance and believe the gospel of His Son - but sadly not all do.

Hi

Grace7,

Thanks for the input, but before I can reply, you will have to tell me what translators messed up our English translations. When actually did this happen, and of course just as important who discovered this error and when. And as a side note where did you get the information from.

All this will help in replying to what you have stated, otherwise, all you have done is change the meaning to back up your theology. The exact charge you make against hundreds upon hundreds of translators.

Thanks for your help.

Phil

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi

Grace7,

Thanks for the input, but before I can reply, you will have to tell me what translators messed up our English translations. When actually did this happen, and of course just as important who discovered this error and when. And as a side not where did you get the information from.

All this will help in replying to what you have stated, otherwise, all you have done is change the meaning to back up your theology. The exact charge you make against hundreds upon hundreds of translators.

Thanks for your help.

Phil

Hey Phil...how are things?

Simple answer is - go look at any literal Greek linear and you will see exactly what is there and what isn't there in that passage in John 9.

I first heard of this years ago by a guy named Stanley - I think that was his name. Anyway, I went and looked it up and lo and behold - it was so...

My NASB has the words "initialized" which means they are not in the original text but are added in by the translators. I believe any half decent sized KJV would have it too. I'm not sure if other translations do that or not.

John 9:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


I'm sure you know that there are no punctuation marks in the original Greek and it was one big flow of writing and they were all in capital Greek letters too.

Man/translators put in the various number system and break out of them as well as "adding" other words to go with what they "thought" any text was saying.

I understand it goes against some of our church teachings that have been passed on down but - it happens...Check it out...

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi

Grace7,

Thanks for the input, but before I can reply, you will have to tell me what translators messed up our English translations. When actually did this happen, and of course just as important who discovered this error and when. And as a side note where did you get the information from.

All this will help in replying to what you have stated, otherwise, all you have done is change the meaning to back up your theology. The exact charge you make against hundreds upon hundreds of translators.

Thanks for your help.

Phil

Found the guy Phil - Charles Price is his name. I must have got his name mixed up with Charles Stanley. I know very little about him. It turns out that he is a Brit too.

Here is his website.

Living Truth: About Charles Price

 

[phil36]

Hey Phil...how are things?

Simple answer is - go look at any literal Greek linear and you will see exactly what is there and what isn't there in that passage in John 9.

I first heard of this years ago by a guy named Stanley - I think that was his name. Anyway, I went and looked it up and lo and behold - it was so...

My NASB has the words "initialized" which means they are not in the original text but are added in by the translators. I believe any half decent sized KJV would have it too. I'm not sure if other translations do that or not.

John 9:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


I'm sure you know that there are no punctuation marks in the original Greek and it was one big flow of writing and they were all in capital Greek letters too.

Man/translators put in the various number system and break out of them as well as "adding" other words to go with what they "thought" any text was saying.

I understand it goes against some of our church teachings that have been passed on down but - it happens...Check it out...

Hi Grace,

Things are well thanks, and pray all is well with you. I do understand that Greek (early) had no full stops and comma's etc, in fact the earliest were written in all capitals with no spaces nor paragraphs (from memory majuscule). So it's not that I am querying. It's your translation that I am querying (or stanleys).

If you read the Greek you get the plain meaning, which is what we get in the English (in the context of the narrative). It is quite clear in the Greek (without boring people) that what the English says is what the Greek says and means. This has never ben a variant, even the liberals don't see this as a variant (they would doubt the miracle though).

The major point is that, the man was blind, God allowed it to be that way, so that He could be glorified through the man's sickness being healed. Ultimately God is in control of all things to the Glory of His name. The translation you have put forward does not stand. And it is a translation you have put forward! It doesn't stand up to critical assessment of the Greek text, nor does it stand up against the witness of the church past and present.

Plus there are more texts to show the same point.

Just like the blindman, God sometimes allows his children to go through trials, tribulations and hard times so that they may experience God's mercy and power in delivering them... Thousands upon thousand of Christians can testify to this including me... Of course this does not sit well with liberalism, health wealth and prosperity Gospel or those with an erroneous view of grace.

Some of our hardships and trials. like that of Joseph and Job are for God's glory (we can trace more as redemptive history proceeds), This can be as a refining or through this great healing of the blind man. We don't why God does what he doe's in a lot of circumstances, but we can be certain and have the assurance that His purpose is for good (Rom 8:28).

Anyhow, I have to say that your translation of the passage is lacking any evidence apart from the early texts did not follow our English grammatical structure???

Kind regards

Phil

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,

Things are well thanks, and pray all is well with you. I do understand that Greek (early) had no full stops and comma's etc, in fact the earliest were written in all capitals with no spaces nor paragraphs (from memory majuscule). So it's not that I am querying. It's your translation that I am querying (or stanleys).

If you read the Greek you get the plain meaning, which is what we get in the English (in the context of the narrative). It is quite clear in the Greek (without boring people) that what the English says is what the Greek says and means. This has never ben a variant, even the liberals don't see this as a variant (they would doubt the miracle though).

The major point is that, the man was blind, God allowed it to be that way, so that He could be glorified through the man's sickness being healed. Ultimately God is in control of all things to the Glory of His name. The translation you have put forward does not stand. And it is a translation you have put forward! It doesn't stand up to critical assessment of the Greek text, nor does it stand up against the witness of the church past and present.

Plus there are more texts to show the same point.

Just like the blindman, God sometimes allows his children to go through trials, tribulations and hard times so that they may experience God's mercy and power in delivering them... Thousands upon thousand of Christians can testify to this including me... Of course this does not sit well with liberalism, health wealth and prosperity Gospel or those with an erroneous view of grace.

Some of our hardships and trials. like that of Joseph and Job are for God's glory (we can trace more as redemptive history proceeds), This can be as a refining or through this great healing of the blind man. We don't why God does what he doe's in a lot of circumstances, but we can be certain and have the assurance that His purpose is for good (Rom 8:28).

Anyhow, I have to say that your translation of the passage is lacking any evidence apart from the early texts did not follow our English grammatical structure???

Kind regards

Phil

I understand your thoughts on it Phil as I grew up with the same teachings but I respectfully disagree with you. I believe God makes all things good out of the harm and destruction that the world, the flesh and the devil brings our way. He is not the author of it.

God will "allow" you to go kill your children in a certain sense but He is not "having that to happen or causing you to do that" so that He can teach you some lesson. Personally I find those types of thoughts anti-Christ in their very nature.

We live in a corrupted world marred from the effects of the fall of Adam of which sickness and death is a foul offspring.


Can you show me where Jesus did any of these things to His disciples? I'd be interested in looking at them.

Jesus is perfect theology. Jesus said that no one knows the father but the Son. he has come to do the will of the Father and Hebrews 1:1-3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Any "perception" we have of God that doesn't line up with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ will not be accurate.

Jesus was manifested so that He might destroy the works of the devil. He didn't fight against His Father.

He makes beauty for ashes. But I respect your right to believe as you do. All is well.

 

[phil36]

I understand your thoughts on it Phil as I grew up with the same teachings but I respectfully disagree with you. I believe God makes all things good out of the harm and destruction that the world, the flesh and the devil brings our way. He is not the author of it.

God will "allow" you to go kill your children in a certain sense but He is not "having that to happen or causing you to do that" so that He can teach you some lesson. Personally I find those types of thoughts anti-Christ in their very nature.

We live in a corrupted world marred from the effects of the fall of Adam of which sickness and death is a foul offspring.


Can you show me where Jesus did any of these things to His disciples? I'd be interested in looking at them.

Jesus is perfect theology. Jesus said that no one knows the father but the Son. he has come to do the will of the Father and Hebrews 1:1-3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Any "perception" we have of God that doesn't line up with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ will not be accurate.

Jesus was manifested so that He might destroy the works of the devil. He didn't fight against His Father.

He makes beauty for ashes. But I respect your right to believe as you do. All is well.

Hi Grace7,

I think you may have misread my post, I never said God was the 'author' of it, that is why I mentioned Joseph. Yet he controls all things. If God is Sovereign then he will allow things to happen, the wretched plot of Joseph's brothers and yet he used it to His glory and we might add Josephs refinement and good, and not Just for Josephs good... I hope we remember that last part!

Isaiah 10, sheds great light on this very subject.

However, we also know that God can bring calamities even on his own. It's here I think that you would disagree? Paul's thorn is a great example.


God is a good Father, and all good fathers will discipline their children, well I hope so if they don't they are not upto much as fathers. The reason for this is for their own good. God does the same.

Also, scripture tells us this:

[FONT=&quot]So then, those who suffer according to God’s will[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Peter 4:19.

We can take it even further God pronounced the curse on the world... this brought sickness and ill health, this is a reason why even Christians get sick. A fallen body..yet it was God who made the curse on the fallen creation. God was the author of the curse, Christians still suffer painful physical deaths as well as non-believers and yet God authored it!

Anyhow, The scripture is very clear that God is in Sovereign control over all things, whether he authored them or not. For the good of those who love him and for His own Glory.

Well, I know you don't agree but these are important and it is good to discuss.[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace7,

I think you may have misread my post, I never said God was the 'author' of it, that is why I mentioned Joseph. Yet he controls all things. If God is Sovereign then he will allow things to happen, the wretched plot of Joseph's brothers and yet he used it to His glory and we might add Josephs refinement and good, and not Just for Josephs good... I hope we remember that last part!

Isaiah 10, sheds great light on this very subject.

However, we also know that God can bring calamities even on his own. It's here I think that you would disagree? Paul's thorn is a great example.


God is a good Father, and all good fathers will discipline their children, well I hope so if they don't they are not upto much as fathers. The reason for this is for their own good. God does the same.

Also, scripture tells us this:

So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Peter 4:19.

We can take it even further God pronounced the curse on the world... this brought sickness and ill health, this is a reason why even Christians get sick. A fallen body..yet it was God who made the curse on the fallen creation. God was the author of the curse, Christians still suffer painful physical deaths as well as non-believers and yet God authored it!

Anyhow, The scripture is very clear that God is in Sovereign control over all things, whether he authored them or not. For the good of those who love him and for His own Glory.

Well, I know you don't agree but these are important and it is good to discuss.

I believe that God is sovereign but I don't believe He "allows" things to happen on this earth so that He could show Himself. That would be a sick father that did that. The heart of man cannot trust such a person that would do that.

I believe He takes the bad that comes in this earth and He makes good come from it and uses what is there to bring about His ultimate will.

I don't believe that God was the author of the curse. I believe He stated what is now in the earth because of sin entering in the world.

Man had been given authority in the earth - which he then gave over to satan when Adam bowed to satan's belief system and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 115:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Satan said to Jesus that all this authority and it's glory - speaking of the world and that it had been handed over to him. Jesus didn't dispute it. Like 4:5-6

Jesus as the Son of Man won back that authority after taking the sin of the world on Him.

Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


1 Peter 4:19 - if you look at the context has absolutely nothing to do with suffering with a sickness as Christian. It is about being reviled for the name of Christ.

1 Peter 4:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


[SUP]15 [/SUP] Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;


[SUP]16 [/SUP] but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

I do Phil believe in the sovereignty of God and His ultimate will - will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God can take any mess that comes to destroy us and turn that into something beautiful.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[truthhurts]

I believe that God is sovereign but I don't believe He "allows" things to happen on this earth so that He could show Himself. That would be a sick father that did that. The heart of man cannot trust such a person that would do that.

I believe He takes the bad that comes in this earth and He makes good come from it and uses what is there to bring about His ultimate will.

I don't believe that God was the author of the curse. I believe He stated what is now in the earth because of sin entering in the world.

Man had been given authority in the earth - which he then gave over to satan when Adam bowed to satan's belief system and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 115:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Satan said to Jesus that all this authority and it's glory - speaking of the world and that it had been handed over to him. Jesus didn't dispute it. Like 4:5-6

Jesus as the Son of Man won back that authority after taking the sin of the world on Him.

Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


1 Peter 4:19 - if you look at the context has absolutely nothing to do with suffering with a sickness as Christian. It is about being reviled for the name of Christ.

1 Peter 4:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


[SUP]15 [/SUP] Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;


[SUP]16 [/SUP] but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

I do Phil believe in the sovereignty of God and His ultimate will - will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God can take any mess that comes to destroy us and turn that into something beautiful.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

I believe that God is sovereign but I don't believe He "allows" things to happen on this earth so that He could show Himself. That would be a sick father that did that. The heart of man cannot trust such a person that would do that.

I am offering up a scenario here.

A armed man walks into a church during a Sunday Morning service, opens fire and kills 150 people. The Pastor meets the man in the aisle and pleads with him to stop and the man kills the Pastor with one shot to the head and kills his teenage kids, but his wife is spared.....and the man is finally arrested later.....

As the weeks go by the members of the church display true fruit of the Spirit when talking to people...they have forgiveness for the man....Several unsaved family members of the 154 people killed go to funerals services and instead of fear of death, they see celebrations of life....after 6 months, the church receives over 400 new born again converts, because of the family members that were slain....these the friends and family members of those slain.....at the 1 year anniversary of the shooting the local DA holds a press conference and announces that the shooter will go free, because the wife of the slain pastor has been visiting him every day and announced recently she has forgiven him for taking all the lives and her husbands and her kids...she pleads with the DA to release him because he has life to live.....once released the man is overwhelmed by perfect love and comes to Jesus and leaves the area and by his testimony over 5,000 people come to Jesus....all 5400 new converts walk in the light and over, 1,000,000 came to Jesus through them....

Benefits only minded theology cannot comprehend that the true Gospel is ONLY about the 1 sinner who repents.....This is God's glory and great mystery....what are you willing to do?

Continue Collecting pension benefits or lay yourself down and be counted faithful to the great commission....

Jesus di not say GO & SIT, or SIT & COLLECT...he said GO & MAKE....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hiya G7, been a while!
With your first paragraph, the thought that came to my mind is that it says that God used pharoah to display Himself, my paraphrase. It says He hardened pharoahs heart in order to do this. How do you fit that in with the thought in your first paragraph? I understand your full thought regarding the man born blind and punctuation but there are other verses too that speak of the matter.

 

[Grace777x70]

I am offering up a scenario here.

A armed man walks into a church during a Sunday Morning service, opens fire and kills 150 people. The Pastor meets the man in the aisle and pleads with him to stop and the man kills the Pastor with one shot to the head and kills his teenage kids, but his wife is spared.....and the man is finally arrested later.....

As the weeks go by the members of the church display true fruit of the Spirit when talking to people...they have forgiveness for the man....Several unsaved family members of the 154 people killed go to funerals services and instead of fear of death, they see celebrations of life....after 6 months, the church receives over 400 new born again converts, because of the family members that were slain....these the friends and family members of those slain.....at the 1 year anniversary of the shooting the local DA holds a press conference and announces that the shooter will go free, because the wife of the slain pastor has been visiting him every day and announced recently she has forgiven him for taking all the lives and her husbands and her kids...she pleads with the DA to release him because he has life to live.....once released the man is overwhelmed by perfect love and comes to Jesus and leaves the area and by his testimony over 5,000 people come to Jesus....all 5400 new converts walk in the light and over, 1,000,000 came to Jesus through them....

Benefits only minded theology cannot comprehend that the true Gospel is ONLY about the 1 sinner who repents.....This is God's glory and great mystery....what are you willing to do?

Continue Collecting pension benefits or lay yourself down and be counted faithful to the great commission....

Jesus di not say GO & SIT, or SIT & COLLECT...he said GO & MAKE....

I see the magnificence of God bringing His grace into a situation that was meant to do evil and destroy people. I see the evil that the enemy has brought into men's minds to blind them. I see the nature of the devil and the foul off-spring of death and destruction that it brings.

I see God with His great love and grace meet that man that killed those good people and extent love and acceptance to him because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. I see the love of God manifested in a corrupt world and one day when He returns this whole creation will be set free.

Personally I am willing to believe in the goodness of God - I am willing to believe in His love and grace towards people. I am willing to believe Him when Paul says. "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". Phil. 2:13.

I am willing to trust in the Lord with all my heart and to not lean on my own human understanding and then He will make my paths straight. I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3

I just "typed myself happy" - thinking about the goodness and love our Father has for us. I firmly believe that when we stand before our Father - we are going to be appalled at the things we thought about Him when we see Him for who He truly is.

 

[truthhurts]

I see the magnificence of God bringing His grace into a situation that was meant to do evil and destroy people. I see the evil that the enemy has brought into men's minds to blind them. I see the nature of the devil and the foul off-spring of death and destruction that it brings.

I see God with His great love and grace meet that man that killed those good people and extent love and acceptance to him because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. I see the love of God manifested in a corrupt world and one day when He returns this whole creation will be set free.

Personally I am willing to believe in the goodness of God - I am willing to believe in His love and grace towards people. I am willing to believe Him when Paul says. "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". Phil. 2:13.

I am willing to trust in the Lord with all my heart and to not lean on my own human understanding and then He will make my paths straight. I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3

I just "typed myself happy" - thinking about the goodness and love our Father has for us. I firmly believe that when we stand before our Father - we are going to be appalled at the things we thought about Him when we see Him for who He truly is.

your assumption is that we do not share the same belief in the goodness of God....

 

[Grace777x70]

Hiya G7, been a while!
With your first paragraph, the thought that came to my mind is that it says that God used pharoah to display Himself, my paraphrase. It says He hardened pharoahs heart in order to do this. How do you fit that in with the thought in your first paragraph? I understand your full thought regarding the man born blind and punctuation but there are other verses too that speak of the matter.

Hey!

Good question - The text also says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart 10 times as well as God. God knows what people are going to do when confronted with Him. Some hardened their heart. One could say that God hardened their heart when He came with a display of His power because it revealed what was in them. Un-belief will lead to a hardening of the heart.

Jesus feeding the 5,000 and 7,000 caused the disciples hearts to be hardened.

Mark 6:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP] For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.

Mark 8:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And Jesus, aware of this, *said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart?

Thus the hardening was as much Pharaoh’s own act as it was the work of God. Even more significant is the fact that Pharaoh alone was the agent of the hardening in the first sing and in all the first five plagues. Not until the sixth plague was it stated that God actually moved in and hardened Pharaoh’s heart (9.12), as he had warned Moses in Midian that he would have to do [4.21].”

Well how did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? God simply revealed himself. He revealed his power, supremacy, love for his people, hatred of sin, etc.. through the signs and wonders of the plagues. It was this revelation of God that hardened his heart.

Here is a link to an article about it.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.or...06/why-and-how-did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart/

Here is another one that gives some good insight.

The Hardening of Pharaoh's Heart

God will and can use any situation to bring about His purposes and display His glory/goodness.

 

[Grace777x70]

your assumption is that we do not share the same belief in the goodness of God....

I don't know what you believe on the subject actually. You had asked "What are you willing to do?" I answered what I was willing to believe which would lead me to be doing what He has for me to do by the Spirit of God within me.

I loved your story about how God turned a tragedy into a beautiful thing. I like to say "He was caught in the act of being Himself".

I was just giving you what I believe and I don't believe God "allows" bad things to happen on purpose just so that He can show His goodness. I believe man has a say on this earth but the ultimate will of God will not be stopped and the manifestation of His true character will be revealed.

I believe He takes the badness that is in the earth and in men and makes beauty out of it and His true glory/goodness is displayed.

If people view things differently - that is their choice and I respect their choice to do so...All is well....

 

[Stephen63]

How do any of those links to a different website prove your accusation against the owner of this website...? This makes no sense...

It makes no sense because I originally was talking about the site joaniemarie quoted, not CC! You;ve been wrong from the start, lol.

You could guess CC is Hyp******e because they do absolutely NOTHING to those posting it, & their numbers are growing.

 

[Stephen63]

But also, Steven, you have to let God work on people at His own pace. He will correct us and align our thinking as we're ready to bear it. For instance, joannie thinks satan did not have to ask permission to sift Job. We know that he did and that God issued a series of: very well, but you must not do such and such, each time. But He will show us as we're ready to bear more. You can't expect some nonexistent "perfection of doctrine" because no one is yet perfect in knowing Gods' mind on everything. Even Paul said: I think I have the mind of God on this...

There's a HUGE difference between a "variance" in doctrine & a totally different one.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hey!

Good question - The text also says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart 10 times as well as God. God knows what people are going to do when confronted with Him. Some hardened their heart. One could say that God hardened their heart when He came with a display of His power because it revealed what was in them. Un-belief will lead to a hardening of the heart.

Jesus feeding the 5,000 and 7,000 caused the disciples hearts to be hardened.

Mark 6:52 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP] For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.

Mark 8:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And Jesus, aware of this, *said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart?

Thus the hardening was as much Pharaoh’s own act as it was the work of God. Even more significant is the fact that Pharaoh alone was the agent of the hardening in the first sing and in all the first five plagues. Not until the sixth plague was it stated that God actually moved in and hardened Pharaoh’s heart (9.12), as he had warned Moses in Midian that he would have to do [4.21].”

Well how did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? God simply revealed himself. He revealed his power, supremacy, love for his people, hatred of sin, etc.. through the signs and wonders of the plagues. It was this revelation of God that hardened his heart.

Here is a link to an article about it.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.or...06/why-and-how-did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart/

Here is another one that gives some good insight.

The Hardening of Pharaoh's Heart

God will and can use any situation to bring about His purposes and display His glory/goodness.

I agree with your last sentence here and I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that God is sovereign but I don't believe He "allows" things to happen on this earth so that He could show Himself. That would be a sick father that did that. The heart of man cannot trust such a person that would do that.

I believe He takes the bad that comes in this earth and He makes good come from it and uses what is there to bring about His ultimate will.

I don't believe that God was the author of the curse. I believe He stated what is now in the earth because of sin entering in the world.

Man had been given authority in the earth - which he then gave over to satan when Adam bowed to satan's belief system and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 115:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Satan said to Jesus that all this authority and it's glory - speaking of the world and that it had been handed over to him. Jesus didn't dispute it. Like 4:5-6

Jesus as the Son of Man won back that authority after taking the sin of the world on Him.

Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


1 Peter 4:19 - if you look at the context has absolutely nothing to do with suffering with a sickness as Christian. It is about being reviled for the name of Christ.

1 Peter 4:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


[SUP]15 [/SUP] Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;


[SUP]16 [/SUP] but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

I do Phil believe in the sovereignty of God and His ultimate will - will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God can take any mess that comes to destroy us and turn that into something beautiful.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

I am confused.

Than man was blind from birth, How can we get away from the knowledge that God allowed that to happen. God had the power to heal his eyes before he was born so he would not be born blind, But he chose to wait until a time when he could be healed and glorify God with it.

Yet many babies born blind will never be healed, even if they come to Christ. God could have healed them also before.. The fact he did not, showed he allowed it.

God allowed satan to kill Jobs family, He allowed the calamity to happen.. The fact satan had to ask permission shows even he knows he can do nothing without Gods permission.. Jesus also stated Satan asked permission to sift Peter. Yet God would not allow him to do it..

Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am offering up a scenario here.

A armed man walks into a church during a Sunday Morning service, opens fire and kills 150 people. The Pastor meets the man in the aisle and pleads with him to stop and the man kills the Pastor with one shot to the head and kills his teenage kids, but his wife is spared.....and the man is finally arrested later.....

As the weeks go by the members of the church display true fruit of the Spirit when talking to people...they have forgiveness for the man....Several unsaved family members of the 154 people killed go to funerals services and instead of fear of death, they see celebrations of life....after 6 months, the church receives over 400 new born again converts, because of the family members that were slain....these the friends and family members of those slain.....at the 1 year anniversary of the shooting the local DA holds a press conference and announces that the shooter will go free, because the wife of the slain pastor has been visiting him every day and announced recently she has forgiven him for taking all the lives and her husbands and her kids...she pleads with the DA to release him because he has life to live.....once released the man is overwhelmed by perfect love and comes to Jesus and leaves the area and by his testimony over 5,000 people come to Jesus....all 5400 new converts walk in the light and over, 1,000,000 came to Jesus through them....

Benefits only minded theology cannot comprehend that the true Gospel is ONLY about the 1 sinner who repents.....This is God's glory and great mystery....what are you willing to do?

Continue Collecting pension benefits or lay yourself down and be counted faithful to the great commission....

We are most likely the shooter.. This example is all of us, We all have sinned and fallen short.. Some thing brought us all to christ.

Jesus di not say GO & SIT, or SIT & COLLECT...he said GO & MAKE....

I get so sick of hearing this, No on in this chat roon that I have ever met would preach this false theology..

All it does when you and others say this is make yourselves look ignorant of the fact you have no idea of what the other people teach..

 

[Grace777x70]

I am confused.

Than man was blind from birth, How can we get away from the knowledge that God allowed that to happen. God had the power to heal his eyes before he was born so he would not be born blind, But he chose to wait until a time when he could be healed and glorify God with it.

Yet many babies born blind will never be healed, even if they come to Christ. God could have healed them also before.. The fact he did not, showed he allowed it.

God allowed satan to kill Jobs family, He allowed the calamity to happen.. The fact satan had to ask permission shows even he knows he can do nothing without Gods permission.. Jesus also stated Satan asked permission to sift Peter. Yet God would not allow him to do it..

Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

I understand what you are saying here and I too was brought up believing in the same thing.

I am suggesting that God doesn't "allow" bad things to happen in the sense as if He is giving His permission for death and destruction to come to others so that He will show His goodness.

I believe we live in a corrupt world and in that corruption things occur that are not directly from God. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and what the fall of Adam did to bring this corruption into this world.

All death and destruction that is in the world is the foul offspring of having sin enter our world. There is no darkness in God. But His life reveals darkness and "creates" it because it opposes the very life and love of God.

God will "allow" you to go kill everyone in your work place but He is not authorizing it personally so that He can get glory out of it even though He can come and turn that work of the devil to something beautiful. That's the context that I am speaking of in terms of "allowing".

As far as Job goes - there are different views on exactly what happened between God and satan in the book of Job. Different translations and perspectives show a different view. I can send you links for this if you are interested in looking at them.