my last argument for obedience

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Nov 22, 2015
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Yes, but did you even READ the post right before yours, #1055?
Those good works FOLLOW salvation, having ALREADY been saved.
What hrfd and others like him keep insisting, falsely, is that salvation is DEPENDENT on things WE do, such as water-baptism or efforts of our own self-obedience, etc. That has been the on-going debate, not whether or not we should do good things...that was just shown in the post preceding yours.
When we do good works it's a result of having salvation, not as an attempt to aquire or keep it. Do you see the difference?
Amen..you nailed it!..that is the real issue. Works-based deeds of righteousness in order to "maintain" salvation or by grace through faith in Christ alone.

We will bear the fruit of that salvation. The fruit being love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control ( yes..self-control is a fruit of the spirit and not a work of the flesh )

To some people the fruit of love or kindness may be in ripe form. In other people some of the fruit needs to grow as we keep our eyes on Jesus - the Holy Spirit transforms us.

What happens to works-based mindsets is that they judge other people's fruit by how ripe it us compared to "their" fruit.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
hello 1ofthem, just wanted to mention something you wrote : if you believe, but do not walk with Jesus. see, here is the point that gets missed by so many on here: if you believe, you WILL walk with Jesus.

the sad truth is, many say that they are Christians, but are not really. but that is for God to sort out, not us stand over each and be " fruit checkers". a real believer will do good works without the " threat " of losing salvation, judgement, hell, etc.

real Christians do not have to be forced to be good.
Amen, that is what separates a true child of God from a religious wanna be child of God.

the jews thought they were ok because they followed Gods law. Not realizing it was not their works of righteousness which made them holy, But Gods grace through his future son, Or the messiah that came and died for them (in case of most NT jews)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Yes, but did you even READ the post right before yours, #1055?
Those good works FOLLOW salvation, having ALREADY been saved.
What hrfd and others like him keep insisting, falsely, is that salvation is DEPENDENT on things WE do, such as water-baptism or efforts of our own self-obedience, etc. That has been the on-going debate, not whether or not we should do good things...that was just shown in the post preceding yours.
When we do good works it's a result of having salvation, not as an attempt to aquire or keep it. Do you see the difference?
Jesus said that those who don't do GOD's will won't be saved. So it sounds like salvation is indeed dependent upon what we do.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been
saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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hello 1ofthem, just wanted to mention something you wrote : if you believe, but do not walk with Jesus. see, here is the point that gets missed by so many on here: if you believe, you WILL walk with Jesus.

the sad truth is, many say that they are Christians, but are not really. but that is for God to sort out, not us stand over each and be " fruit checkers". a real believer will do good works without the " threat " of losing salvation, judgement, hell, etc.

real Christians do not have to be forced to be good.
Hello and that was a good post. I think that's what throws me off on the subject so much... the people who confess with their mouths that they are Christians but deny him with their hearts. I think that is really sad and pray for them that they will be truly saved.

And also, I just want to make this clear, I don't believe in self righteousness in anyway...If we could have done any work to save our own selves then God wouldn't have sent Jesus to die for our sins.

And I totally agree with you about the fruits of the Spirit and that real Christians don't have to be forced to to good because if the Spirit of God dwells in us it is a pleasure and joy to do good and try to be like him.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is when we do not factor in what Christ has done for salvation.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say..not doing the will of God means you are not
saved - when you don't factor in Christ's finished work for salvation.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
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Yes, but did you even READ the post right before yours, #1055?
Those good works FOLLOW salvation, having ALREADY been saved.
What hrfd and others like him keep insisting, falsely, is that salvation is DEPENDENT on things WE do, such as water-baptism or efforts of our own self-obedience, etc. That has been the on-going debate, not whether or not we should do good things...that was just shown in the post preceding yours.
When we do good works it's a result of having salvation, not as an attempt to aquire or keep it. Do you see the difference?
Sorry, I wasn't able to read the post above mine before I posted. I think I was typing at the same time you were. But I do agree with what you are saying. There is no work that we can do that would give us salvation. So yes, I agree with you.

Like I said I really don't know HRFTD's beliefs and couldn't speak on his beliefs. I was just trying to give him a benefit of a doubt.
 
Feb 26, 2015
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But you are teaching Salvation by works HeRoseFromTheDead when you teach "works of faith are a requisite component of saving faith."

Saving Faith is the Faith given to us by God for receiving Salvation.

BELIEVE and RECEIVE is all that is required for receiving Salvation. Not works of Faith, not works of any kind.

From the very beginning, HeRoseFromTheDead, you have maintained works are needed to receive Salvation.

The problem with works needed for Salvation is the doctrine one can lose their Salvation by sinning. Clearly when Jesus shed His Blood on the cross ALL of our sins we forgiven by God. Even those sins we will do tomorrow or next week or even next year!

Therefore how can one lose their Salvation? You cannot. There is no way to lose one's Salvation by mistake or accident!

Until you understand this HeRoseFromTheDead you will continue trying day after day to keep from losing your Salvation which leaves you no time left to follow God in Love.
 
Feb 26, 2015
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Show us HeRoseFromTheDead where God said if we do not do His will we cannot receive Salvation nor keep our Salvation?

You are just making things up to justify your doctrine of works for Salvation and works to keep your Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8,9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Ok, that's good to hear that you aren't talking about working in our own selves or self righteousness.
I'm not sure what you mean by working in ourselves. Everything we do involves self. Self that conforms itself to the will of GOD is not evil.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Show us HeRoseFromTheDead where God said if we do not do His will we cannot receive Salvation nor keep our Salvation?

You are just making things up to justify your doctrine of works for Salvation and works to keep your Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8,9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Haven't been following along, but I keep getting notifications.

SO,

Could you tell me what the will of the Father is?

FranC
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Show us HeRoseFromTheDead where God said if we do not do His will we cannot receive Salvation nor keep our Salvation?

You are just making things up to justify your doctrine of works for Salvation and works to keep your Salvation.
[/SIZE]

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

“And why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell [you]? Luke 6:46

‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far, far away from me, and they worship me in vain, teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.’*” Matthew 15:8-9
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Ok, that's good to hear that you aren't talking about working in our own selves or self righteousness.

Don't be fooled as to what working in ourselves means to different people. We have been witnesses of his posts for awhile now. It's been about 6 months for me observing but others it's been over a year.

He believes that if you don't do what he thinks the will of God is - you go to hell...despite what Jesus has done for us in His finished work. He thinks you must "do" good deeds "in order to be saved" and to go to heaven.


That is the real issue. This belief above is "working in ourselves" or self-effort and it is works-based salvation beliefs.
I just wanted you to know the difference.

And also..people are allowed to believe whatever they want too. He is allowed to have his beliefs.

People can believe that Daffy and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation but I would want scripture on that...as they are unlikely birds!..:).
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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Haven't been following along, but I keep getting notifications.

SO,

Could you tell me what the will of the Father is?

FranC
Hi there..in case who you asked the question to doesn't answer. Post #1064 has an answer for you about the "will of God"....that is a great question.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Don't be fooled as to what working in ourselves means to different people. We have been witnesses of his posts for awhile now. It's been about 6 months for me observing but others it's been over a year.

He believes that if you don't do what he thinks the will of God is - you go to hell...despite what Jesus has done for us in His finished work. He thinks you must "do" good deeds "in order to be saved" and to go to heaven.[/B]
She definitely needs to stay away from you because this is your projection based on you own agenda (hyper grace), not something that I've ever said. I've only insisted that GOD's will needs to be done.
 
Apr 8, 2016
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Yes, Grace7's,
And it's that fruit-inspecting that drives new believers and seekers away.
'The legalistic crowd that tells others, 'You must do this, you must do that, you're not behaving, you better get baptised, you said this meanly, you don't have love, you're not obedient enough' etc, etc, it's maddening.

They put a yoke of burden around the necks of others, denying them joy and freedom in Christ unless they pass a check-list of their own rules of invention.

People are getting beat up by the world, the flesh, and the devil, and come looking for some answers to it all, only to get beat up some more by a bunch of legalists and fruit-inspectors that claim to represent the Saviour.

They might as well join scientology or become a muslum, or any number of other false religious groups that demand submission and obedience to their man-made structures.

Jesus came to say, You are loved with an everlasting love, and underneath are the outstretched arms, and here's proof...and He stretched His arms upon the cross, and there died for our sins.

When He rose from the grave, we were given the assurance that the penalty for our sins was paid in full, that the wrath of God due us was satisfied by Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf, and that by believing, simply by believing in Him, our sins have been removed, we have salvation and eternal life as a gift of His grace and mercy and love, we have peace with God, and that's the good good news!!!


Once we have salvation, how we grow in Christ and what kind of fruit we bear to what degree is part of our personal relationship with God, and it's just that, personal.

We're not called to inspect the relationship another believer has with God, (unless they're coming to us for advice or help in a given situation, then we're to exercise brotherly love as God leads us),
that's when we need to make sure we don't have a log in our own eye, so we can help remove a speck from a brother's.

But this burden of works-righteousness and subsequent fruit-inspection by some uppity ones goes from bad to worse and is not what we're to be on about.

We're to be about sharing the good news and ministering to each other as the Lord leads and gives us gifts and abilities to do so, (there's a myriad of ways, the Word being foremost), and when a person believes in Jesus, letting the Lord do His work in them in His way, in His time.

God bless you G7 and many like you here (I've tried naming before, but was leaving out too many that deserve recognition, so I'll just say thanks to all for now) who've been doing that, despite the opposition that takes place, the good ppl that get torn down or even banned, while false-teaching continues. God bless you. May He keep you encouraged in His love and grace.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Yes, Grace7's,
And it's that fruit-inspecting that drives new believers and seekers away.
'The legalistic crowd that tells others, 'You must do this, you must do that, you're not behaving, you better get baptised, you said this meanly, you don't have love, you're not obedient enough' etc, etc, it's maddening.

They put a yoke of burden around the necks of others, denying them joy and freedom in Christ unless they pass a check-list of their own rules of invention.

People are getting beat up by the world, the flesh, and the devil, and come looking for some answers to it all, only to get beat up some more by a bunch of legalists and fruit-inspectors that claim to represent the Saviour.

They might as well join scientology or become a muslum, or any number of other false religious groups that demand submission and obedience to their man-made structures.

Jesus came to say, You are loved with an everlasting love, and underneath are the outstretched arms, and here's proof...and He stretched His arms upon the cross, and there died for our sins.

When He rose from the grave, we were given the assurance that the penalty for our sins was paid in full, that the wrath of God due us was satisfied by Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf, and that by believing, simply by believing in Him, our sins have been removed, we have salvation and eternal life as a gift of His grace and mercy and love, we have peace with God, and that's the good good news!!!


Once we have salvation, how we grow in Christ and what kind of fruit we bear to what degree is part of our personal relationship with God, and it's just that, personal.

We're not called to inspect the relationship another believer has with God, (unless they're coming to us for advice or help in a given situation, then we're to exercise brotherly love as God leads us),
that's when we need to make sure we don't have a log in our own eye, so we can help remove a speck from a brother's.

But this burden of works-righteousness and subsequent fruit-inspection by some uppity ones goes from bad to worse and is not what we're to be on about.

We're to be about sharing the good news and ministering to each other as the Lord leads and gives us gifts and abilities to do so, (there's a myriad of ways, the Word being foremost), and when a person believes in Jesus, letting the Lord do His work in them in His way, in His time.

God bless you G7 and many like you here (I've tried naming before, but was leaving out too many that deserve recognition, so I'll just say thanks to all for now) who've been doing that, despite the opposition that takes place, the good ppl that get torn down or even banned, while false-teaching continues. God bless you. May He keep you encouraged in His love and grace.

Well said...you described the religious D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset to a "T"..( what ever a "T" means...:) )

We all must remember to also not become a "grace Pharisee" and to let the Holy Spirit deal with all of us in where we are in our understanding on the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation.

I for one have been shown great mercy from the Lord in my ignorance of the grace of Christ and how great His love and salvation really is because of what Jesus has done for us by grace through faith alone.
 
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1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
I'm not sure what you mean by working in ourselves. Everything we do involves self. Self that conforms itself to the will of GOD is not evil.
I believe there is an old (man) self and the new man which is created after Jesus. I believe we have to deny our old self and be converted and take up our cross and follow Jesus.

The scripture says that you can't put new wine into an old bottle. It also says to clean the cup from the inside. I believe that if we are saved and we let Jesus in our hearts we lay down the old man. If we let him on the inside of our heart, he can and will cleanse us thoroughly.

When I was saved there was a change in me the things I used to love (sin) I hated after becoming saved.
That's not saying that I am not still tempted at times, but I have to put my faith in Jesus because he is the only way that I can overcome. If I rely on my flesh to say no to temptations then I want be able to to. I know that I have to abstain from all appearance of evil and the only way to do that is to fill up on the Spirit of God. I do that by faith in Jesus, reading and learning the scripture, praying without ceasing, and letting Jesus help me to carry my burdens.

He says to learn of him because his burdens are light and his yoke is easy. Without him I wouldn't be able to carry my burdens. If I rely on myself I fall.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
But you are teaching Salvation by works HeRoseFromTheDead when you teach "works of faith are a requisite component of saving faith."

Saving Faith is the Faith given to us by God for receiving Salvation.

BELIEVE and RECEIVE is all that is required for receiving Salvation. Not works of Faith, not works of any kind.

From the very beginning, HeRoseFromTheDead, you have maintained works are needed to receive Salvation.

The problem with works needed for Salvation is the doctrine one can lose their Salvation by sinning. Clearly when Jesus shed His Blood on the cross ALL of our sins we forgiven by God. Even those sins we will do tomorrow or next week or even next year!

Therefore how can one lose their Salvation? You cannot. There is no way to lose one's Salvation by mistake or accident!

Until you understand this HeRoseFromTheDead you will continue trying day after day to keep from losing your Salvation which leaves you no time left to follow God in Love.

That whole, "component of faith" thing is just code for legalistic works of the flesh. It goes by different names. The CoC call it their, "faith response". And that faith response includes a boatload of works that one must do. It's a way to trick themselves into thinking that they can work their way to God, and still make a legitimate claim that they are saved by grace through faith. The crazy stuff people come up with just so they can try to save themselves.