my last argument for obedience

[B1Davanda]

Jesus said that those who don't do GOD's will won't be saved. So it sounds like salvation is indeed dependent upon what we do.

Gee, your just overflowing with glad tidings, aren't you.

Sorry, I wasn't able to read the post above mine before I posted. I think I was typing at the same time you were. But I do agree with what you are saying. There is no work that we can do that would give us salvation. So yes, I agree with you.

Like I said I really don't know HRFTD's beliefs and couldn't speak on his beliefs. I was just trying to give him a benefit of a doubt.

I'M SORRY, 1of them, I may have been a bit short with you, I should have given you more time on those posts, I forget to do that sometimes, and yet sometimes I get upset when it happens to me, so I should know better.
I really am sorry, 1ofthem.

It's like G7's said before, this has gone on, for some a long time,
and it's gotten almost ridiculous lately.....how many times, in how many ways, can the same thing be said to the same handful of ppl, and they still insist on their own brand of works-righteousness.

But as also been said, if that's what they believe it's what GOD wants them to believe, that's one thing.
When they teach it to others as if it's God's gospel, we have an obligation to speak the truth, contend for the faith, and refute error.
I didn't mean to reflect it on you that you were in error. I'm sorry.

 

[1ofthem]

Don't be fooled as to what working in ourselves means to different people. We have been witnesses of his posts for awhile now. It's been about 6 months for me observing but others it's been over a year.

He believes that if you don't do what he thinks the will of God is - you go to hell...despite what Jesus has done for us in His finished work. He thinks you must "do" good deeds "in order to be saved" and to go to heaven.

That is the real issue. This belief above is "working in ourselves" or self-effort and it is works-based salvation beliefs. I just wanted you to know the difference.

And also..people are allowed to believe whatever they want too. He is allowed to have his beliefs.

People can believe that Daffy and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation but I would want scripture on that...as they are unlikely birds!...

There are so many beliefs out there. All the different denominations is an example of that. I know many good people in each denomination, and I love everyone and hope for their best. So I don't argue or fall out with people over their beliefs because God knows the hearts of everyone. I also don't put my confidence in or follow any one else, but God. When I was saved, God told me not to look at other people but to look straight to him and he would teach me. I believe God has good people every where but I don't follow anyone but Jesus.

He said we are held accountable for what we know so couldn't we all just be at different stages in our relationships with God.

I know the scripture says that of those that fell on the good ground they brought forth fruit some 30 fold, some 60 fold, and some 100 fold. I'm not exactly sure but couldn't that mean that we all could just be at a different level of understanding?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That whole, "component of faith" thing is just code for legalistic works of the flesh. It goes by different names. The CoC call it their, "faith response". And that faith response includes a boatload of works that one must do. It's a way to trick themselves into thinking that they can work their way to God, and still make a legitimate claim that they are saved by grace through faith. The crazy stuff people come up with just so they can try to save themselves.

That certainly describes the legalistic side of the coin of disobedience. The other side is lawless grace in which there are no commandments.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That certainly describes the legalistic side of the coin of disobedience. The other side is lawless grace in which there are no commandments.

Good works are good only because they originate in a Good God. Meaning if God is not the source of our works, then there is nothing good about them.

So......if you truly are concerned about 'others' works, point them to the One who alone is the Source of all good works, and not to themselves.....which is nothing but encouraging dead works of the flesh.

 

[Grace777x70]

There are so many beliefs out there. All the different denominations is an example of that. I know many good people in each denomination, and I love everyone and hope for their best. So I don't argue or fall out with people over their beliefs because God knows the hearts of everyone. I also don't put my confidence in or follow any one else, but God. When I was saved, God told me not to look at other people but to look straight to him and he would teach me. I believe God has good people every where but I don't follow anyone but Jesus.

He said we are held accountable for what we know so couldn't we all just be at different stages in our relationships with God.

I know the scripture says that of those that fell on the good ground they brought forth fruit some 30 fold, some 60 fold, and some 100 fold. I'm not exactly sure but couldn't that mean that we all could just be at a different level of understanding?

I believe you are right on the understanding thing you mentioned above as Matt. 13:23 seems to bear that out.

Matthew 13:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

 

[1ofthem]

Gee, your just overflowing with glad tidings, aren't you.


I'M SORRY, 1of them, I may have been a bit short with you, I should have given you more time on those posts, I forget to do that sometimes, and yet sometimes I get upset when it happens to me, so I should know better.
I really am sorry, 1ofthem.

It's like G7's said before, this has gone on, for some a long time,
and it's gotten almost ridiculous lately.....how many times, in how many ways, can the same thing be said to the same handful of ppl, and they still insist on their own brand of works-righteousness.

But as also been said, if that's what they believe it's what GOD wants them to believe, that's one thing.
When they teach it to others as if it's God's gospel, we have an obligation to speak the truth, contend for the faith, and refute error.
I didn't mean to reflect it on you that you were in error. I'm sorry.

No problem, I don't get offend easily...I know it sometimes takes me a while when I start posting something...and there are sometimes 3 or 4 new posts that I haven't read above mine when I'm finished...lol

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So......if you truly are concerned about 'others' works, point them to the One who alone is the Source of all good works, and not to themselves.....which is nothing but encouraging dead works of the flesh.

You're just perpetuating the false characterization that your blinders allow you to only see. I have never said working from the flesh (what you call self) is doing the will of GOD. That's just something you want to see.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

You're just perpetuating the false characterization that your blinders allow you to only see. I have never said working from the flesh (what you call self) is doing the will of GOD. That's just something you want to see.

Yeah, you have said,

[TABLE="class: post_body, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: post, colspan: 2"]

As Paul said, "Striving according to his working"

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Paul speaks of not receiving the grace of God in vain as the grace is for the obedience of the faith and you can strive according to that which works in you

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure what you mean by working in ourselves. Everything we do involves self. Self that conforms itself to the will of GOD is not evil.

You do understand the word "carnal" means self do you not?

Anything coming from self is sin, Because it has self in focus, and not God.

It is no wonder you think you are a righteous person, headed to heaven if you keep it up, It all makes sense now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

“And why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell [you]? Luke 6:46

‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far, far away from me, and they worship me in vain, teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.’*” Matthew 15:8-9​

I do not see this saying we need to work to maintain salvation.

This says the true children of God will work. Those who just yell Lord Lord, but are not his children do not do works, All they have is self righteousness, which is bloody rags to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That certainly describes the legalistic side of the coin of disobedience. The other side is lawless grace in which there are no commandments.

where do you get this stuff from? do you just make it up? I am seriously asking!!

 

[Grace777x70]

[TABLE="class: post_body, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: post, colspan: 2"]As Paul said, "Striving according to his working"

(snip)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Paul speaks of not receiving the grace of God in vain as the grace is for the obedience of the faith and you can strive according to that which works in you

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This striving according to the grace of God Paul is talking about is "for serving the Lord"...it is not for "maintaining salvation and if you don't strive to serve the Lord according to His grace - you go to hell. That is the issue

- and we can do things in the flesh by our own self-will or by the grace of God working in us. The Bema seat will expose all that.

There is a difference in that as well but that is a different topic other then salvation by grace through faith in Christ's work only.

 

[Grace777x70]

I do not see this saying we need to work to maintain salvation.

This says the true children of God will work. Those who just yell Lord Lord, but are not his children do not do works, All they have is self righteousness, which is bloody rags to God.

And if they do works..it's to maintain their self-righteousness.

Anything we are told we must "do" in order to "maintain" salvation in Christ is anti-the gospel. We believe in all that Christ has done and walk out the love that is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 4:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul speaks of not receiving the grace of God in vain as the grace is for the obedience of the faith and you can strive according to that which works in you

James, John and Paul are all in agreement.

​What [is] the benefit, my brothers, if someone says [that he] has faith but does not have works? That faith [is] not able to save him, [is it]? If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day, and one of you should say to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what [is] the benefit? Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself. James 2:14-17

But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:17-19

by which [gospel] you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:2​

Vain
G1500 εἰκῆ eike (ei-kay`) adv.
1. idly, i.e. without reason (or effect)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James, John and Paul are all in agreement.

​What [is] the benefit, my brothers, if someone says [that he] has faith but does not have works? That faith [is] not able to save him, [is it]? If a brother or a sister is poorly clothed and lacking food for the day, and one of you should say to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but does not give them what is necessary for the body, what [is] the benefit? Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself. James 2:14-17

But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:17-19

by which [gospel] you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:2​

Vain
G1500 εἰκῆ eike (ei-kay`) adv.
1. idly, i.e. without reason (or effect)

2 things.

1. Look at the word vein, Without reason. A person who believes without reason, you want me to believe they were saved, and later lost it? How could they be saved> They had NO REASON TO BELIEVE,, ie, they had no repentance or faith

2. Yes they are in aggreement.

1. Paul we are saved by faith apart from works, Based on Gods grace and mercy alone, Those saved by true faith WILL WORK. it is their new nature, old things are passed away.

2. John - We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, We are condemned already (in a state of condemnation) if we have not had faith.. We are given the right to be called children of God by God himself. not because we did any work. Those who are saved do works, and can nnot live in a state of sin, because they have been born of God.

3. James, We are saved by faith, Those who do not have the works both paul and john said a child of God will have, yet claim to have faith are decieved, Their faith is dead, they have never been saved, period. .

 

[Grace777x70]

I encourage all people to check out the scriptures in context when someone posts a scripture. You can make a scripture say anything you want to make it "appear" to say if you don't take that scripture in it's context.

Look at 1 Cor. 15:2 in context.

Paul is talking about the gospel and what it is and then was defending his apostleship. The word "vain" means "without purpose, without cause " in Greek. It is not used to say your believing is not good enough.

[FONT="Gentium" !important]eikē[/FONT] adv
Without cause, in vain, without purpose

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. ( you believed without a cause or purpose )

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is no argument for disobedience, yet people who should know better continually argue that all willing to be obedient to God are in bondage to teh law, demonstrating a complete system of ignorance about obedience. In so doing these unfortunates are insinuating disobedience, adn we all know what God has to say about that.

Either the laws have been transferred to your hearts or it has not been. If you no longer believ in the laws on stone tablets, good for you, but if you do not understand that the law is now on our hearts, it is not on your heart, thuwhen you claim to have a natural gift for the law it is quite impossible having a blank heart with no knowledge of it.

Look to Jesus Christ to understand all. He invites us all to learn of Him, and I always listen to Him becaue so far no one who claims to know we areunder bondage if we love to obey God has a clue. Look to the Lord......amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no argument for disobedience, yet people who should know better continually argue that all willing to be obedient to God are in bondage to teh law, demonstrating a complete system of ignorance about obedience.

Not one person in this room has said this, Has insinuated this, Or even contemplated trying to tell others these things, and quite frankly, these false allegations are getting old. How they can continue is beyond me.

I get so sick of people making these false accusations. Then telling us we are ignorant, or need to learn. when it is the other way around

If people would sit and actually listen to what others have been saying, We would not have so many of these kinds of arguments, and meaningless posts.

You know. you have been told over and over, as have all of your buddies, That obedience is not the question, But obedience as a means to earning salvation.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Romans 7:4-6


"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 7:4-6


"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

Amen...to go back to living from obedience to the Law ( this is self-effort to "do things" in order to be acceptable to God and to earn or maintain salvation )

- this is spiritual adultery because we have died to the Law so that we could be joined to another - Christ Himself.