Mystery Babylon

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Sep 14, 2019
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A stadia was one eighth of a Roman mile, a stadium, a race-course for public games

My point is that scripture states that the city will be foursquare, i.e. cubed shaped, with its width, height and depth being equal.

"The city lies foursquare, with its width the same as its length. And he measured the city with the rod, and all its dimensions were equal—12,000 stadia in length and width and height."

Based on the Roman Stadia, the city's height, depth and width, would be approx. 1,400 miles.

I haven't seen anything that would infer the city as being pyramid shaped.



Why not? Can't 3 gates go on each side of a cube?

I suppose we will know better when we see it :)
Here is an interesting video that shows the New Jerusalem to scale

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/newjerusalem.mp4
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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Oh, I thought you had a tough question:

1. Julius Caesar
2. Caesar Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius (my 97th GGF)
6. Nero, the king "who is"
7. Vespasian, "the other has not yet come"
8. Titus, "out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away" YLT

Thus John wrote this during the reign of Nero, just as the Syrian Christians proclaimed.

The next three leaders would come during Rome's civil war AKA, "the Year of the 4 Emperors." It was during this period that the Beast appeared mortally wounded. The beast "died" with Nero as Rome plunged into darkness in a brutal year long civil war. These 3 short-term, non-legitimate emperors were not part of the 7 kings as none of them gained full control of the empire. Roman historian Tacitus says that the civil war triggered by Nero’s death was the darkest time in Roman history. It is this interval that is predicted in Revelation 16:10 where the beast’s kingdom is “cast into darkness.”

Keep in the mind, the beast descends into the Abyss, thus was not. These three kings Galba, Otho and Vitellius, came in rapid succession without a break, but there was a break between King 6 and 7 while Rome was in darkness. The next real emperor was Vespasian, the 7th King. The 8th King was Titus. Keep in mind, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were named Emperor together, at the same time.
So who is the beast after Titus? The beast no longer exists after Titus?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I did a little more research on tall buildings. First, it would have to have an enormous base and could not be a cube. The city described in Rev 21 used known materials so it needs to follow our laws of physics. Here's an excerpt from a story where skyscraper experts were asked about how tall they could make a building.

"We proved that it is physically and even programmatically possible to build a building a mile-and-a-half tall. If somebody would have said 'Do it two miles,' we probably could have done that, too," Johnson says. "A lot of it comes down to money. Who’s going to have that kind of capital?"

As far as the structure is concerned, others think it's possible, too. My colleague John Metcalfe recently pointed out a 1990s-era concept for a two-and-a-half-mile volcano-looking supertower in Tokyo called the X-Seed 4000 that has a similar Eiffel Towerishness to it.

As Metcalfe notes, this 4,000-meter "skypenetrator" was never built for a variety of reasons, but the most obvious is that "[r]eal estate in Tokyo isn't exactly cheap. The base of this abnormally swole tower would eat up blocks and blocks if it was to be stable." In fact the base of this structure, according to conceptual drawings, would have spread for miles and miles, almost like the base of Mount Fuji, itself about 225 meters smaller than the X-Seed 4000.

A building taller than a mountain seems preposterous. But according to Baker, it's entirely possible.

"You could conceivably go higher than the highest mountain, as long as you kept spreading a wider and wider base," Baker says.

Theoretically, then, a building could be built at least as tall as 8,849 meters, one meter taller than Mount Everest. The base of that mountain, according to these theoretical calculations, is about 4,100 square kilometers – a huge footprint for a building, even one with a hollow core. But given structural systems like the buttressed core, the base probably wouldn't need to be nearly as large as that of a mountain.

And this theoretical tallest building could probably go even taller than 8,849 meters, Baker says, because buildings are far lighter than solid mountains. The Burj Khalifa, he estimates, is about 15 percent structure and 85 percent air. Based on some quick math, if a building is only 15 percent as heavy as a solid object, it could be 6.6667 times taller and weigh the same as that solid object. A building could, hypothetically, climb to nearly 59,000 meters without outweighing Mount Everest or crushing the very earth below. Right?

"I'd have to come up with a considered opinion on that," says Baker.

How about an unconsidered opinion?

"I'm afraid I'm going to have to chicken out on you and not give you a number," Baker laughs. "This is the kind of thing I'd want to do with a student."

"If you get some funding for a grad student for a semester, I'll give you a number," Baker says.

So we still don't really know what the tallest building ever would be. In the meantime, Everest-plus-one is essentially the highest.

Nate Berg is a freelance reporter and a former staff writer for CityLab. He lives in Los Angeles.

Thus perhaps a building could be as tall as Everest at 8.849 KM. That is far less than the 2253 KM of new Jerusalem.
The 144, 000 as a metaphor represents all the saints as the bride of Christ. Old testament as well as new

The golden measure is not the measure of man . But the hidden manna or hidden understanding. One spiritual unseen measure like in living stones as new creatures that make up the spiritual house of God the church.

The golden measurement is not likened to the architectural design of this world. But rather numbers as people. Not how tall they are But how beautiful is the wife. What a beautiful City made up of many living stones .
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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God who is not served by human hands in any way shape or form is not a respecter of persons .Making all from the same lump of clay satisfying the need of His soul .He is of one mind needing nothing from the creature he forms Christ in.

It is not about the political nations as kingdoms of the world as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood and the kingdom of God did come by observation .It about God's love for a fallen whole world.

All Israel is not born again Israel. It was never about the flesh of any nation. Clean or redeemed as a inward Jew born again. And unclean as a outward Jew according to what the eyes see. .Jewish flesh the temporal is used to represent the whole of mankind .Just as the animals used in ceremonial laws some for clean or redeemed other unconverted mankind... we walk by faith the eternal not seen

The time of reformation did not end in 70 Ad .It ended when Christ said it is finished . The veil was rent that which stood in the holy place as a abomination of desolation. . removing its ability to deceive the nations that somehow God lived in houses made with human hands...
The time of refreshing (restoration of all things) indeed was completed in 70 AD. It was our connection to God after the Fall that was the primary consequence of the Original Sin. Christ's sacrifice was finished at the Cross, but the restoration wasn't complete until 70 AD when Christ resurrected the Saints. Since then, when we die, those of us saved, immediately go to heaven as so many witnesses of Near Death have experienced.
So who is the beast after Titus? The beast no longer exists after Titus?
So who is the beast after Titus? The beast no longer exists after Titus?
The beast was Rome. The beast was not a stand alone figure. The beast carried (supported) the Harlot (Jerusalem). Titus (the 8th king who was part of the first 7) destroyed Jerusalem, thus the Beast and Harlot as a pair, WERE NO MORE!!! The story ends. The Bible Ends. Israel Ends. The Mosaic Age Ends. The LAW ends.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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We are in a new age!!! Our age was mentioned several times in the Bible (Mt 12:32, Mk 10:30, Lk 18:13, Ep 1:21, 2:7, and Heb 6:5). We are in that "AGE TO COME." Paul makes it clear in his first letter to the Corinthians that they were in the last days of their age.

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor 10:11).

You need to understand, their 2000 year old age, their Law, their country, their storied history as a nation, was about to end. This was AN EXTREMELY BIG DEAL, to them. The Bible spends an enormous amount of time chronicling Israel's history, it's origins, it's time in Egypt, it's time under the judges, then kings, through the Babylonian captivity, to their return to their Land and rebirth, to Jesus, right???? Don't you think something as monumental as their total and utter destruction in 70 AD whereby Israel would cease to be a nation for nearly 2,000 years would warrant a little coverage???? It does and that's what all of this was about, Revelation, the return of Christ's presence, etc. There is no remaining prophesy for us. Nowhere is 21st century America discussed. Sorry if that crushes some of you.

The Law, the Temple, the nation of Israel HAD TO END for salvation to be understood by the world. Israel was no longer to be the example for the world to come to know God. The Church is. The temple was no longer the symbol for the world to see. It had to go. Can't you see that????
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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The beast was Rome. The beast was not a stand alone figure. The beast carried (supported) the Harlot (Jerusalem). Titus (the 8th king who was part of the first 7) destroyed Jerusalem, thus the Beast and Harlot as a pair, WERE NO MORE!!! The story ends. The Bible Ends. Israel Ends. The Mosaic Age Ends. The LAW ends.
OK, so who are the ten kings of Rev 17:12-14, and what is the meaning here?

12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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The 144, 000 as a metaphor represents all the saints as the bride of Christ. Old testament as well as new

The golden measure is not the measure of man . But the hidden manna or hidden understanding. One spiritual unseen measure like in living stones as new creatures that make up the spiritual house of God the church.

The golden measurement is not likened to the architectural design of this world. But rather numbers as people. Not how tall they are But how beautiful is the wife. What a beautiful City made up of many living stones .
Good grief man. Please don't go all symbolic and figurative on us. The 144K were a literal group of Jewish believers, 12,000 men from each tribe, just as the text says. They were killed from 33-70 AD, mostly by the wicked Jews and many by Nero and others. The world hated them. Spiritually they were virgins having never bowed to Rome or acknowledged Caesar as their only King, as the Jewish religious leaders did.

The gospel was preached to all the known world back then as Paul taught. Every Jewish descendant, including those from the lost tribes which had scattered throughout the known world after Babylon (AKA, the Roman Empire) heard the gospel. Many accepted Christ as their Savior. They were tortured and killed by the world, just as Jesus predicted in Mat 24. In Rev 6, they cried out for vengeance but were told to wait a little longer. Then they are shown one chapter later in Heaven. They were no longer "hungry" and "thirsty" spiritually because they were with Jesus. Remember Christ's lesson on that? In Isa 65 you will find them contrasted against the wicked Jews who were about to be slaughtered in the great tribulation of Jerusalem which came in 70 AD.

The whole chapter of Isaiah 65 is about 66-70 AD. Read it from that prospective. You will find the new heavens and earth there.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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OK, so who are the ten kings of Rev 17:12-14, and what is the meaning here?

12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
We don't need to speculate about this as Josephus names them in the "War of the Jews." They were the leaders of the rebellion. They were every bit as responsible for bringing Babylon (Jerusalem) to its destruction as the Roman army was. All of these ten horns or ten generals having been appointed to office at the start of this war had not yet received their authority at the time in which Revelation was composed in fulfillment of Revelation 17:12:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion
2. Ananus the high priest
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea
6. Joseph the son of Simon, general of Jericho
7. Manasseh,
general of Perea
8. John, the Esscue
, the toparchy of Thamna Lydda, Joppa, and Emmaus
9. John, the son of Matthias, governor of the toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias, of both the Galilees and Gamala


Revelation 17:16 reads, “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” Revelation 17:16 say that the ten horns would “hate the prostitute” and “eat her flesh.” Concerning how the ten horns ate the flesh of the prostitute Josephus uses nearly identical language to express how the Zealots plundered and killed one another as if they were a beast eating its own flesh:

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

Josephus writes the literal fulfillment of Revelation. If you haven't read it, read it!!!
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Good grief man. Please don't go all symbolic and figurative on us. The 144K were a literal group of Jewish believers, 12,000 men from each tribe, just as the text says. They were killed from 33-70 AD, mostly by the wicked Jews and many by Nero and others. The world hated them. Spiritually they were virgins having never bowed to Rome or acknowledged Caesar as their only King, as the Jewish religious leaders did.

The gospel was preached to all the known world back then as Paul taught. Every Jewish descendant, including those from the lost tribes which had scattered throughout the known world after Babylon (AKA, the Roman Empire) heard the gospel. Many accepted Christ as their Savior. They were tortured and killed by the world, just as Jesus predicted in Mat 24. In Rev 6, they cried out for vengeance but were told to wait a little longer. Then they are shown one chapter later in Heaven. They were no longer "hungry" and "thirsty" spiritually because they were with Jesus. Remember Christ's lesson on that? In Isa 65 you will find them contrasted against the wicked Jews who were about to be slaughtered in the great tribulation of Jerusalem which came in 70 AD.

The whole chapter of Isaiah 65 is about 66-70 AD. Read it from that prospective. You will find the new heavens and earth there.
I would think you would find the temporal corrupted Jerusalem on earth .The kingdom is one unseen eternal. the heavenly prepared as the bride.

I have looked at it in a more of literal way. But many problems came as it seemed missing information hid in parables called hidden manna in Revevation 2. This is in order to help us understand how to walk by faith. A lesson many time given to the apostles.. .

Hidden like if any man has not the Spirit of Christ that works in them to both will and do the good pleasure of our God does not belong to him. The simply gospel believe or believe not. . the spirit that works in us..?

The kingdom of God does not come by that in which the eyes see. Faith must be mixed so that we can see the work of God working in our hearts, as a law of faith. . or sabbath law. (Hebrews 4).

Jewish flesh is used to represent the whole of mankind .The temporal land represents the unseen new heavens and earth.

God is not served by human hands .Mankind can plant the incorruptible seed the gospel and water it with the doctrines of God .But He alone can cause new life and therefore growth if any.

Yes Chapter 65 is a great parable used to reveal the unseen eternal things of God. Things that speaks of the result of the promised reformation . When God destroyed the power of the abomination of desolation. Using that time period as a parable to return men to walk by faith, as with Judges . The apostate Jews that mocked God demanded a pagan form of religion like all the surrounding nations. the same as today. Putting their hope in the corruptible. . what the eyes see. And not the eternal thing of faith. . The New jeusruaselm or called Zion.

Joel spoke of that time of reformation when the priesthood was changed to all the nations men and woman holding out the new tongue of God, the gospel. The time of great tribulation like never before or ever again to the Christian world that walks by faith

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:(all nations) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

All nations = all flesh mocking the faithless Jew to represent unbelief in mankind as a whole, all nations .

That seems to be what is being said in the opening words.

Isaiah 65 King James Version (KJV) I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

That represents all the denominations as kingdom of this world .represented by as a metaphor the temporal land Jerusalem .the corrupted land. A shadow of the new Jerusalem that God has name His bride Christian. A word that literally means; "residents of the city of Christ, Zion" named after her founder, Christ.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The time of refreshing (restoration of all things) indeed was completed in 70 AD. It was our connection to God after the Fall that was the primary consequence of the Original Sin. Christ's sacrifice was finished at the Cross, but the restoration wasn't complete until 70 AD when Christ resurrected the Saints. Since then, when we die, those of us saved, immediately go to heaven as so many witnesses of Near Death have experienced.




The beast was Rome. The beast was not a stand alone figure. The beast carried (supported) the Harlot (Jerusalem). Titus (the 8th king who was part of the first 7) destroyed Jerusalem, thus the Beast and Harlot as a pair, WERE NO MORE!!! The story ends. The Bible Ends. Israel Ends. The Mosaic Age Ends. The LAW ends.
Hi thanks for that.

I today see that a little differently. I would suggest being careful on how we hear or see. Seeing he gives us ears to make it possible to those previously deaf to the unseen things of God. .

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

The beast is the spirit of the antichrist singular, Satan. As the man of sin he deceives mankind in opposition of the gospel as antichrists, plural . The bible distinguishes between the two forms of antichrist. . singular and plural

Its not one location or group of mankind like Rome although they do it with openly in pride.. . in need of the gospel of light. They are not the only ones that could be reckoned as antichrists, plural. It is used in two ways divided. . coming from one source (antichrist, singular) Satan. .

The Catholics have appointed Peter as the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. Therefore making the gospel as to the suffering of Christ without effect. some call cherry picking . Ignoring the ongoing context that reveals the anti christ singular as the spirt of lies god of this world worked in Peter.. . . . Peter denied Christ . . . . .blaspheming the Son of man, Jesus. Forgivable then .

Today there could be no forgiveness it would be against the Holy Spirit the unseen place of God's glory . But many denominations say abide in them they alone have the infallible truth. (all cults) that utilize a daysman. . a fleshly infallible interpreter set between God not seen (faith) and man seen.

Leading some to forget their first love. The hearing of the gospel. . . the first experience of believing in a God not seen .The first works of God that did work in them giving them a new heart and new spirit.

The man of sin. . . Satan as the voice of sin.

Peter had a different kind of rebuke directed at him .He said unto Peter, Peter savor the things of God I am with you till the end of the age .. unlike the rebuke of the spirit of lies, Peter get behind me, Satan

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23

It one reason I beleive we have been given valuable tools to help unlock the gospel truths . . helping us understand how to walk by faith the unseen eternal. We with our new faith can search out the gospel hid in the parable. And can be forgiven if we deny Christ who abides in us .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Hi thanks for that.

I today see that a little differently. I would suggest being careful on how we hear or see. Seeing he gives us ears to make it possible to those previously deaf to the unseen things of God. .

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

The beast is the spirit of the antichrist singular, Satan. As the man of sin he deceives mankind in opposition of the gospel as antichrists, plural . The bible distinguishes between the two forms of antichrist. . singular and plural

Its not one location or group of mankind like Rome although they do it with openly in pride.. . in need of the gospel of light. They are not the only ones that could be reckoned as antichrists, plural. It is used in two ways divided. . coming from one source (antichrist, singular) Satan. .

The Catholics have appointed Peter as the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. Therefore making the gospel as to the suffering of Christ without effect. some call cherry picking . Ignoring the ongoing context that reveals the anti christ singular as the spirt of lies god of this world worked in Peter.. . . . Peter denied Christ . . . . .blaspheming the Son of man, Jesus. Forgivable then .

Today there could be no forgiveness it would be against the Holy Spirit the unseen place of God's glory . But many denominations say abide in them they alone have the infallible truth. (all cults) that utilize a daysman. . a fleshly infallible interpreter set between God not seen (faith) and man seen.

Leading some to forget their first love. The hearing of the gospel. . . the first experience of believing in a God not seen .The first works of God that did work in them giving them a new heart and new spirit.

The man of sin. . . Satan as the voice of sin.

Peter had a different kind of rebuke directed at him .He said unto Peter, Peter savor the things of God I am with you till the end of the age .. unlike the rebuke of the spirit of lies, Peter get behind me, Satan

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23

It one reason I beleive we have been given valuable tools to help unlock the gospel truths . . helping us understand how to walk by faith the unseen eternal. We with our new faith can search out the gospel hid in the parable. And can be forgiven if we deny Christ who abides in us .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The Bible is full of object lessons teaching us how to walk with God through Jesus. But all the characters and events in the Bible dealt with people in the past. There is no future (to us) person mentioned or hinted at anywhere in the Bible. There was an actual "Man of Sin" His name was Titus. He did everything mentioned in 2 Thes 2. While the same evil spirits are present in our day and actions of some, including various churches, are at odds with scripture, doesn't alter the fact that the real events foretold happened back then. If they do again, it would be history repeating itself.

Here's how:

Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

Vespasian miraculously healed a blind man and a lame man or a man with a withered hand around the time of Titus’ return to Jerusalem to besiege the city and immediately prior to his triumphal entry into Rome as its new emperor literally fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:9: “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders . . .” Three different Roman historians recorded this miracle wherein Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men: “With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion.”3 There were also many miracles recorded around the time Titus returned with the Roman army to besiege Jerusalem as well as afterwards when he returned to Rome to celebrate the triumph with his father.

In the first century, the Caesars were worshipped in Rome’s eastern provinces in the imperial cult as a god. Recall that Titus was given the title “Caesar” in A.D. 69 at Vespasian’s coronation. And when the Romans broke into the Temple, Suetonius says that Titus’ army wanted to make him emperor.4 Since the time of Augustus, the Roman emperor was Pontifex Maximus or high priest of Roman religious life. Furthermore, Titus’ army was drawn from the eastern provinces where emperor worship was a day-to-day occurrence and officially sanctioned in the Imperial Cult in Rome at the time. Thus Caesar Titus was his army’s general, perceived emperor and Pontifex Maximus. And as Pontifex Maximus or high priest in the presence of his army drawn from the east where emperor worship was officially sanctioned, Titus was expected to both direct and receive divine worship while the Romans worshiped the images of himself and Vespasian on the ensigns in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70.

Titus Flavius Vespasianus is called the man of lawlessness because he permanently put an end to the practice of the Law by destroying the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70 thereby making it impossible to fully follow the customs of the Law of Moses.

How could Titus be the Lawless One if he did not die at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70? Of all the other possible first-century candidates for the Lawless One–Nero, Simon, John, Eleazar ben Jair, and Eleazar ben Simon–none of these people are known to have died at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 never says the Lawless One would die at the coming of Christ in A.D. 70. This verse literally reads, “And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will TAKE AWAY with the Breath of His Mouth and DO AWAY WITH by the Splendor of His Coming.” Titus was done away with and taken away in A.D. 70 since he left Jerusalem and returned to Rome immediately after the city fell in A.D. 70.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
205
63
We don't need to speculate about this as Josephus names them in the "War of the Jews." They were the leaders of the rebellion. They were every bit as responsible for bringing Babylon (Jerusalem) to its destruction as the Roman army was. All of these ten horns or ten generals having been appointed to office at the start of this war had not yet received their authority at the time in which Revelation was composed in fulfillment of Revelation 17:12:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion
2. Ananus the high priest
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea
6. Joseph the son of Simon, general of Jericho
7. Manasseh,
general of Perea
8. John, the Esscue
, the toparchy of Thamna Lydda, Joppa, and Emmaus
9. John, the son of Matthias, governor of the toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias, of both the Galilees and Gamala


Revelation 17:16 reads, “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” Revelation 17:16 say that the ten horns would “hate the prostitute” and “eat her flesh.” Concerning how the ten horns ate the flesh of the prostitute Josephus uses nearly identical language to express how the Zealots plundered and killed one another as if they were a beast eating its own flesh:

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

Josephus writes the literal fulfillment of Revelation. If you haven't read it, read it!!!
ok, So who is the beast and false prophet after these things?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
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So who is the beast after Titus? The beast no longer exists after Titus?
We don't need to speculate about this as Josephus names them in the "War of the Jews." They were the leaders of the rebellion. They were every bit as responsible for bringing Babylon (Jerusalem) to its destruction as the Roman army was. All of these ten horns or ten generals having been appointed to office at the start of this war had not yet received their authority at the time in which Revelation was composed in fulfillment of Revelation 17:12:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion
2. Ananus the high priest
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea
6. Joseph the son of Simon, general of Jericho
7. Manasseh,
general of Perea
8. John, the Esscue
, the toparchy of Thamna Lydda, Joppa, and Emmaus
9. John, the son of Matthias, governor of the toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias, of both the Galilees and Gamala


Revelation 17:16 reads, “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” Revelation 17:16 say that the ten horns would “hate the prostitute” and “eat her flesh.” Concerning how the ten horns ate the flesh of the prostitute Josephus uses nearly identical language to express how the Zealots plundered and killed one another as if they were a beast eating its own flesh:

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

Josephus writes the literal fulfillment of Revelation. If you haven't read it, read it!!!
Exodus 39
1) And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the Lord commanded Moses.

2) And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.


From Smithsonian:
Thousands of years ago, one shade of blue was prized above all others for those of the Jewish faith. Tekhelet protected the Ark of the Covenant, the headdresses donned by Jewish high priests and the robes worn by ancient kings and princes—that is until 70 A.D., when Rome’s imperial forces razed Jerusalem’s Second Temple and crushed the subsequent uprising of Jews, bringing an abrupt end to the color's dominance over the Near East. As the Jewish community languished under imperial control, dye workers started to forget the secrets to making tekhelet, from details as rudimentary as the color’s exact hue to the method of its production.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...-blue-biblical-hue-ancient-royalty-180970356/

Is there any mention of this blue color in Rev 17. NO!
Rev 17 is not talking about ancient Israel. SORRY!
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The Bible is full of object lessons teaching us how to walk with God through Jesus. But all the characters and events in the Bible dealt with people in the past. There is no future (to us) person mentioned or hinted at anywhere in the Bible. There was an actual "Man of Sin" His name was Titus. He did everything mentioned in 2 Thes 2. While the same evil spirits are present in our day and actions of some, including various churches, are at odds with scripture, doesn't alter the fact that the real events foretold happened back then. If they do again, it would be history repeating itself.

Here's how:

Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. 1 Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

Vespasian miraculously healed a blind man and a lame man or a man with a withered hand around the time of Titus’ return to Jerusalem to besiege the city and immediately prior to his triumphal entry into Rome as its new emperor literally fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:9: “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders . . .” Three different Roman historians recorded this miracle wherein Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men: “With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion.”3 There were also many miracles recorded around the time Titus returned with the Roman army to besiege Jerusalem as well as afterwards when he returned to Rome to celebrate the triumph with his father.

In the first century, the Caesars were worshipped in Rome’s eastern provinces in the imperial cult as a god. Recall that Titus was given the title “Caesar” in A.D. 69 at Vespasian’s coronation. And when the Romans broke into the Temple, Suetonius says that Titus’ army wanted to make him emperor.4 Since the time of Augustus, the Roman emperor was Pontifex Maximus or high priest of Roman religious life. Furthermore, Titus’ army was drawn from the eastern provinces where emperor worship was a day-to-day occurrence and officially sanctioned in the Imperial Cult in Rome at the time. Thus Caesar Titus was his army’s general, perceived emperor and Pontifex Maximus. And as Pontifex Maximus or high priest in the presence of his army drawn from the east where emperor worship was officially sanctioned, Titus was expected to both direct and receive divine worship while the Romans worshiped the images of himself and Vespasian on the ensigns in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70.

Titus Flavius Vespasianus is called the man of lawlessness because he permanently put an end to the practice of the Law by destroying the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70 thereby making it impossible to fully follow the customs of the Law of Moses.

How could Titus be the Lawless One if he did not die at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70? Of all the other possible first-century candidates for the Lawless One–Nero, Simon, John, Eleazar ben Jair, and Eleazar ben Simon–none of these people are known to have died at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 never says the Lawless One would die at the coming of Christ in A.D. 70. This verse literally reads, “And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will TAKE AWAY with the Breath of His Mouth and DO AWAY WITH by the Splendor of His Coming.” Titus was done away with and taken away in A.D. 70 since he left Jerusalem and returned to Rome immediately after the city fell in A.D. 70.
Again that which is called Holly of holiest. Is the unseen place of the glory of God or place of faith was represented by the temporal things of this world . Temples made with human hands. As to its opening or renting it is represented by a veil. It spoke of the flesh of the Son of man as a one time demonstration of him and the unseen Father working together bringing the peace of God that surpasses our human understanding..

When it was rent .It put away the temporal as that seen. Having nothing to do with something that happened in 70 AD. The renting of the veil revealed the promised old testament saint their graves were opened as the gates of heaven were opened .The temporal temple as a abomination of desolation had finished its work of standing in the holy place .It was not the holy place as the true glory. That place will appear on the last day no temple.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21: 22-23

The man of sin is any man deceived by the god of this world who would try and make the gospel without effect. Peter in Mathew 16 was used as one of the antichrists (plural) who were there.

The antichrist as the father or spirit of lies. He would have mankind believe he is still not identified and remains a mystery. Antichrists many was used as one like Peter who did deny the Son of man Jesus from completing the demonstration . Peter forbid the Son of man causing blasphemy.

The Holy Ghost signifying (using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal ).which was a parable hiding the spiritual understanding. It stood as a shadow imposed on them until the time of reformation. when Jesus said it is finished the graves opened up to show the way was open.

Again until the time of reformation as the witness of God. Not 70AD, as the witness of men. God's witness the greater

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation

Both the antichrist singular Satan. . the spirit of error and antichrists plural as many men must be recognized so we can heed the warning that we do not need any man to teach us. .

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (singular) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; (plural) whereby we know that it is the last time.1 John 2: 18

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John2: 26-27
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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ok, So who is the beast and false prophet after these things?
The beast and the kings of the earth waged war against the Lamb by their persecution of the Christian saints per Mt 25:40. The beast’s war on God and his people may have been quite a bit more deliberate and literal. Titus, the little horn of Dan 7, is the mouth of the beast (Rev 13:5-6, Dan 7:8, 25) as Aaron was the mouth of Moses (Exo 4:16). According to Rev 13:6 the beast opens “his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place.” Titus, the little horn, is also called the false prophet to the beast in Rev 19:20: “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.” Titus, the son of the beast Vespasian, is the mouth of the beast of Rev 13:5-6, the little horn of Dan 7 and the false prophet of Rev 19:20. Titus LITERALLY spoke blasphemies against God and his dwelling place.

The beast will “make war against the rider on the horse and his army.” Essentially the same thing is predicted in Revelation 13:6-7. In these verses, Titus, the mouth of the beast, is said to “make war against the saints and to conquer them” during the Jewish War and slander those who live in heaven. Rev 19:19 and Rev 13:6-7 appear to be fulfilled in Titus’ desire to destroy the Christian and Jewish religions by destroying the Temple. Sulpicius Severus says the following in Chronica 2:30.7:

But others, on the contrary, disagreed–including Titus himself. They argued that the destruction of the Temple was a number one priority in order to destroy completely the religion of the Jews and the Christians: For although these religions are conflicting, they nevertheless developed from the same origins. The Christians arose from the Jews: With the root removed, the branch is easily killed.

Above one can see that Titus made “war against the rider on the horse and his army” by trying to destroy the religion of the Jews and Christians. This, however, is not the only way in which Titus declared war on God. According to Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud, Titus LITERALLY and EXPLICITLY challenged God to war after he thought that he had killed God at the destruction of the Temple:

This was the wicked Titus who blasphemed and insulted Heaven. What did he do? He took a harlot by the hand and entered the Holy of Holies and spread out a scroll of the Law and committed a sin on it. He then took a sword and slashed the curtain. Miraculously blood spurted out, and he thought that he had slain God himself . . .”

Shortly thereafter, Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud also records Titus declare war on “the rider on the horse,” the God of Israel, by saying, “If he [the rider on the horse, the God of Israel] is really mighty, let him come up on the dry land and fight with me.” Rome persecuted the people of Israel during and shortly after the Jewish War. Rome also persecuted Christians, the soon-to-be inhabitants of heaven, just prior to this war during the Neronic persecution. In this declaration of war against God one can see how the mouth of the beast, the False Prophet Titus, explicitly declares the beast’s intention through its war with Israel and persecution of Christians “to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.”

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

The two people mentioned in this verse are the two Roman generals of the Jewish War, Vespasian and Titus. The beast mentioned in this verse is Vespasian. The false prophet is Titus. Titus is called the false prophet because of what he did to fulfill Rev 13:11-18. On the 9th of Av of A.D. 70, the Romans worshiped the ensigns in the temple in Jerusalem. When the Romans worshiped these ensigns; one of which was the Imago, a metallic image of Caesar; Titus presided over the worship of the ensigns as he was granted the title Caesar at his father’s coronation and thus would have also likely had his own image engraved on the ensign called the numina legionum beside that of his father’s. Because Titus was both general and Caesar it was expected that he would preside over the false worship of his father, the emperor, and Rome in the Temple in Jerusalem, Titus is called the false prophet in this verse as stipulated by Deu 13:1-5:

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God.

Titus is called the false prophet because he presided over the worship of foreign gods in the Temple while providing a sign that these gods were real gods while YHWH was a false god. This sign was the fire from heaven mentioned in Rev 13:13. This fire from heaven was fulfilled in the fact that the Roman army launched firebrands into Jerusalem during the siege of the city as they had done earlier in the war. This fire from heaven was also a symbol of one of the legions which aided in the siege of Jerusalem, Legio XII Fulminata, the 12th Lightning Bolt Legion in addition to being a symbol of Rome itself. The symbol of Rome was Aquila, the eagle that carried Zeus’ lightning bolt. Aquila was the main ensign Titus’ army carried into battle.

When after displaying this sign of fire from heaven, Titus showed the Jews that these Roman gods that they worshiped on the ensigns were the true gods, not YHWH who allowed His Temple to be destroyed in addition to allowing foreign gods to be worshiped there. Then after providing this sign, Titus ordered all the Jews left in the city to be killed: “So he [Titus] ordered this proclamation to be made to them, that they [the Jews of Jerusalem] should no more come out to him as deserters, nor hope for any further security; for that he would henceforth spare nobody, but fight them with his whole army.” (Wars 6.6.3) Thus Titus acted as a dark reflection of the prophet Elijah who after calling down fire from heaven also ordered everyone who would not worship his god, YHWH, to be killed (1 Kings 18:38-40). It is also because of this similarity with the prophet Elijah that Titus is called the false prophet in this verse.

Rev 19:20 says that with this sign of Roman victory, the false prophet “had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.” Josephus says that many of the Jews of Jerusalem who were trapped in the city during the siege of A.D. 70 hoped that the Romans would come and deliver them from the Zealots who threatened their lives during the siege. Given the fact that the Romans had seized the Temple, those Jews who had received the mark of the beast and were thus loyal to Rome thought that they were soon going to be saved from their zealot persecutors. The following verse accurately predicts that they were deluded. As explained in the commentary on Rev 13 when Titus seized the Temple, he ordered his troops to indiscriminately kill everyone they encountered in the city. Thus the Romans went on a killing spree killing everyone in Jerusalem without discriminating between those who were Roman rebels and those Jews who were loyal to Rome who had received the mark of the beast and were trapped in the city at the start of the war. Those Jews who had received the mark of the beast and were thus loyal to Rome were also killed alongside the zealot rebels and everyone else in Jerusalem. Look at how the beast was cast alive into the lake of fire.

This lake of fire is mentioned again in Rev 20:10: “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Here we see that the devil, beast and false prophet are thrown into the same lake of fire where they are each tormented for the age of ages. Regardless one’s view of the millennium, this “age of ages” refers to an era—presumably a lengthy one–after A.D. 70. This means that the beast, false prophet and Satan are tormented in the lake of fire after A.D. 70 which means that this lake of fire cannot refer to the burning of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 or at least there is more to this lake of fire than just the burning of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Abyss is a dual metaphor for foreign nations and the realm of the dead concurrently throughout Rev and much of the rest of the Bible. If Rome is the Abyss then when the beast and false prophet are cast into the Abyss in v. 20 this would appear to denote Vespasian’s and Titus’ ultimate return to Rome, the Abyss, in A.D. 70. The beast and false prophet are cast “alive” into the Abyss (Rev 19:20).
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Exodus 39
1) And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the Lord commanded Moses.

2) And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

From Smithsonian:
Thousands of years ago, one shade of blue was prized above all others for those of the Jewish faith. Tekhelet protected the Ark of the Covenant, the headdresses donned by Jewish high priests and the robes worn by ancient kings and princes—that is until 70 A.D., when Rome’s imperial forces razed Jerusalem’s Second Temple and crushed the subsequent uprising of Jews, bringing an abrupt end to the color's dominance over the Near East. As the Jewish community languished under imperial control, dye workers started to forget the secrets to making tekhelet, from details as rudimentary as the color’s exact hue to the method of its production.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...-blue-biblical-hue-ancient-royalty-180970356/

Is there any mention of this blue color in Rev 17. NO!
Rev 17 is not talking about ancient Israel. SORRY!
You are hanging your whole premise because one of several colors was left out. Maybe blue wasn't the dominant color?

 
Oct 9, 2019
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We are in a new age!!! Our age was mentioned several times in the Bible (Mt 12:32, Mk 10:30, Lk 18:13, Ep 1:21, 2:7, and Heb 6:5). We are in that "AGE TO COME." Paul makes it clear in his first letter to the Corinthians that they were in the last days of their age.

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor 10:11).

You need to understand, their 2000 year old age, their Law, their country, their storied history as a nation, was about to end. This was AN EXTREMELY BIG DEAL, to them. The Bible spends an enormous amount of time chronicling Israel's history, it's origins, it's time in Egypt, it's time under the judges, then kings, through the Babylonian captivity, to their return to their Land and rebirth, to Jesus, right???? Don't you think something as monumental as their total and utter destruction in 70 AD whereby Israel would cease to be a nation for nearly 2,000 years would warrant a little coverage???? It does and that's what all of this was about, Revelation, the return of Christ's presence, etc. There is no remaining prophesy for us. Nowhere is 21st century America discussed. Sorry if that crushes some of you.

The Law, the Temple, the nation of Israel HAD TO END for salvation to be understood by the world. Israel was no longer to be the example for the world to come to know God. The Church is. The temple was no longer the symbol for the world to see. It had to go. Can't you see that????
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No, it doesn't crush me in the slightest !! It profits me nothing to rejoice in the deaths of millions / billions in the destruction to come - even if some are unbelievers.

Like i said to @Ahwatukee, maybe some here have a vested interest in convincing themselves with various theories about - ( ROME / THE FALL OF JERUSALEM as BABYLON THE GREAT ), ( The ROMAN CAESARS / PHARISEES / SANHEDRIN as the BEAST ). Some of the scenes and persons described in Revelations are not meant to be taken literally !! Stop making everything an Academic argument, you are Christians NOT Theology Professors !!

It is quite a terrible thing to imagine all that will come on our World because, whether the destruction of Babylon references AMERICA / ROME / JERUSALEM / ATLANTIS / KRYPTON, it really doesn't matter because the rest of the World which includes WE CHRISTIANS will be suffering after the effects of all the destruction to come.

I personally believe that BABYLON is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and all those in her land will fall under God's judgement in a mighty way with each individual person called to either REPENT amid the destruction or PERISH INTO EVERLASTING FIRE.

On a personal note, i imagine it will be much worse for the Rest of the World who are so dependent on AMERICA's economy - the thought of vast destruction coupled with Collapsing economies sounds pretty horrible. I'm glad i have Jesus in my life, not just now but for the days to come because on my own i wouldn't make it.

It is written that in the last days there would come False Teachers and a people who would choose to deny the truth of the signs of the times.

For some on here who have chosen to deny the truth even from LATEST PROPHECIES BY AMERICAN HOLY SPIRIT-FILLED PROPHETS, these events i imagine will come as a great shock to you.

It was interesting though reading that some consider TITUS to be the THE BEAST OF REVELATIONS. :eek::eek::eek:
 
Mar 28, 2016
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The beast and the kings of the earth waged war against the Lamb by their persecution of the Christian saints per Mt 25:40. The beast’s war on God and his people may have been quite a bit more deliberate and literal. Titus, the little horn of Dan 7, is the mouth of the beast (Rev 13:5-6, Dan 7:8, 25) as Aaron was the mouth of Moses (Exo 4:16). According to Rev 13:6 the beast opens “his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place.” Titus, the little horn, is also called the false prophet to the beast in Rev 19:20: “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.” Titus, the son of the beast Vespasian, is the mouth of the beast of Rev 13:5-6, the little horn of Dan 7 and the false prophet of Rev 19:20. Titus LITERALLY spoke blasphemies against God and his dwelling place.

The beast will “make war against the rider on the horse and his army.” Essentially the same thing is predicted in Revelation 13:6-7. In these verses, Titus, the mouth of the beast, is said to “make war against the saints and to conquer them” during the Jewish War and slander those who live in heaven. Rev 19:19 and Rev 13:6-7 appear to be fulfilled in Titus’ desire to destroy the Christian and Jewish religions by destroying the Temple. Sulpicius Severus says the following in Chronica 2:30.7:

But others, on the contrary, disagreed–including Titus himself. They argued that the destruction of the Temple was a number one priority in order to destroy completely the religion of the Jews and the Christians: For although these religions are conflicting, they nevertheless developed from the same origins. The Christians arose from the Jews: With the root removed, the branch is easily killed.

Above one can see that Titus made “war against the rider on the horse and his army” by trying to destroy the religion of the Jews and Christians. This, however, is not the only way in which Titus declared war on God. According to Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud, Titus LITERALLY and EXPLICITLY challenged God to war after he thought that he had killed God at the destruction of the Temple:

This was the wicked Titus who blasphemed and insulted Heaven. What did he do? He took a harlot by the hand and entered the Holy of Holies and spread out a scroll of the Law and committed a sin on it. He then took a sword and slashed the curtain. Miraculously blood spurted out, and he thought that he had slain God himself . . .”

Shortly thereafter, Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud also records Titus declare war on “the rider on the horse,” the God of Israel, by saying, “If he [the rider on the horse, the God of Israel] is really mighty, let him come up on the dry land and fight with me.” Rome persecuted the people of Israel during and shortly after the Jewish War. Rome also persecuted Christians, the soon-to-be inhabitants of heaven, just prior to this war during the Neronic persecution. In this declaration of war against God one can see how the mouth of the beast, the False Prophet Titus, explicitly declares the beast’s intention through its war with Israel and persecution of Christians “to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.”

This lake of fire is mentioned again in Rev 20:10: “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Here we see that the devil, beast and false prophet are thrown into the same lake of fire where they are each tormented for the age of ages. Regardless one’s view of the millennium, this “age of ages” refers to an era—presumably a lengthy one–after A.D. 70. This means that the beast, false prophet and Satan are tormented in the lake of fire after A.D. 70 which means that this lake of fire cannot refer to the burning of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 or at least there is more to this lake of fire than just the burning of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Abyss is a dual metaphor for foreign nations and the realm of the dead concurrently throughout Rev and much of the rest of the Bible. If Rome is the Abyss then when the beast and false prophet are cast into the Abyss in v. 20 this would appear to denote Vespasian’s and Titus’ ultimate return to Rome, the Abyss, in A.D. 70. The beast and false prophet are cast “alive” into the Abyss (Rev 19:20).
Its not about the kingdoms of this world or flesh of any nation as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood. . ( the temporal corrupted things seen .)

The standpoint of Revelation as to the whole book. . . the signified language or tongue of God is used in parables. It is from the perspective of the last day . called the day of the Lord in Revelation 1. The end of time looking back on the past. The last rump has sounded

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

If we would literalize the signified language then we lose the hidden understanding found in parables. Sent and signified .Not simply sent.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

His witness or interpretation. Without parables the signified language Christ spoke not. Not the witness of men that have no faith to see the eternal perspective.

The time of reformation when the veil was rent signaling the beginning of the last days given by a metaphorical word (thousand years) that signifies a unknown .We walk by faith. God who does not live in temples built with human hands and is neither served by them in any way shape or form as the abomination of desolation. He does not give exact days or number of people that make up the bride. Which is neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile .

He informs us. Its a evil generation that looks to a sign as a true wonder. None is given. Walk by faith the unseen eternal
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
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No, it doesn't crush me in the slightest !! It profits me nothing to rejoice in the deaths of millions / billions in the destruction to come - even if some are unbelievers.

Like i said to @Ahwatukee, maybe some here have a vested interest in convincing themselves with various theories about - ( ROME / THE FALL OF JERUSALEM as BABYLON THE GREAT ), ( The ROMAN CAESARS / PHARISEES / SANHEDRIN as the BEAST ). Some of the scenes and persons described in Revelations are not meant to be taken literally !! Stop making everything an Academic argument, you are Christians NOT Theology Professors !!

It is quite a terrible thing to imagine all that will come on our World because, whether the destruction of Babylon references AMERICA / ROME / JERUSALEM / ATLANTIS / KRYPTON, it really doesn't matter because the rest of the World which includes WE CHRISTIANS will be suffering after the effects of all the destruction to come.
I feel very sorry for you. You believe that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, but in the same breath you talk about the Lord putting His church through the same coming wrath that is meant for the wicked. Also, if you truly understood the severity of the coming plagues of wrath, you wouldn't be claiming that those in Christ will be left on the earth to be exposed to it.

Like many, you are not understanding that Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, which means that the church cannot and will not experience any of God's wrath, whether on the earth, nor at the great white throne judgment.

I personally believe that BABYLON is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and all those in her land will fall under God's judgement in a mighty way with each individual person called to either REPENT amid the destruction or PERISH INTO EVERLASTING FIRE.
You believe that Babylon is the Unitied States of America without any scriptural proof. It is all conjecture on your part.

The word of God is clear about who the woman of Revelation 17 is, but you continue to ignore it and teach was false.

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"And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

America is not a city!

America does not rule over the kings of the earth!

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

America does not sit on seven mountains!

"And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet"

America is not dressed in purple and scarlet!
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"And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven mountains which she sits on!

"And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet"

Purple and scarlet are the exact colors that the bishops and cardinals of Roman Catholicism wear!
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All of the nations of the world are guilty and will be will experience God's wrath and not just America!

Why don't you try to use the clues that God has provided instead of making things up as you go!

As it is, you have no idea of what you are taling about. You think you do, but you don't.

On a personal note, i imagine it will be much worse for the Rest of the World who are so dependent on AMERICA's economy - the thought of vast destruction coupled with Collapsing economies sounds pretty horrible. I'm glad i have Jesus in my life, not just now but for the days to come because on my own i wouldn't make it.

It is written that in the last days there would come False Teachers and a people who would choose to deny the truth of the signs of the times.

For some on here who have chosen to deny the truth
You being one of them
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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You need to understand, their 2000 year old age, their Law, their country, their storied history as a nation, was about to end. This was AN EXTREMELY BIG DEAL, to them.
its not because st.paul is writing to corinthians who didnt have any of that jewish history they were gentiles lolz