Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Whispered

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In John 6:40, did Jesus die for only those that see the Son and believe in him, or, as you say, that he died for all mankind? What people did he die for? You are still eliminating the fact that God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him (Psalms 53:2) and before they would seek him, he had to exchange their heart in the new birth, being born again (Ezk 11:19 - - 2 Cor 3:3). It is necessary for the cross for God's elect because it is a requirement that sin must be punished. I understand that you are trying to teach Dibby 53 the scriptures, the best way that you know how, but you are teaching him a false doctrine. John 6:65, Therefore, said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except, it were given unto him of my Father. Only those men (women) that were given to them by the Father could come.
Everything you're saying there comports with Calvinism's TULIP.

And to be clear, I am not trying to teach Dibby the scriptures. I am hoping rather to lead Dibby away from the false doctrine that corrupts the scriptures and is defined as such as Calvinism.
 

Whispered

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For Dibby 53 (In the event you did not happen on this in a different thread)

Apologetics Press
Flaws In Calvinism
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of his thinking have been summarized under the acrostic TULIP.


Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.​
Bible Responses
Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”
Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”
Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”
Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”
Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”
Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”
Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”


Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.​
Bible Responses
Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”
Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”
Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”




 

Whispered

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Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.​
Bible Responses
1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”
Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”
1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”
Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”


Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.​
Bible Responses
Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”
Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”
John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”


Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.​
Bible Responses
Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”
Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”
Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”
Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”

Copyright 2017 original publisher, Apologetics Press https://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=5387#
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Everything you're saying there comports with Calvinism's TULIP.

And to be clear, I am not trying to teach Dibby the scriptures. I am hoping rather to lead Dibby away from the false doctrine that corrupts the scriptures and is defined as such as Calvinism.
Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself :cool:.

How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
 

Whispered

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Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself :cool:.

How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
I like that idea very much.
If you read the scriptures you will find you can make just about any doctrine out there appear to conform to scripture.
That's what John Calvin did.
If you go to a Bible verse search engine and enter the search criteria, Total Depravity, you find results in singular scripture form. Like HERE
If one reads those scriptures in line it appears that Calvin was absolutely right about the state of humanity from the before even the creation of the world and the first people. Which is what Calvinism teaches. That God predestined what Calvinist tenets encapsulate as God's will and word, before God created anything at all.

But those verses are singular excerpts from the books and chapters in both the Old and New Testaments. They are not in context. (Context= the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning. )

Therein someone could read that entire list of scriptures and feel quite upset to think everything is predetermined and as such they may not be one of the Elect of God.

Because if you think about it? When there are over a billion people on the planet who identify as saved by God's grace, Christian, then there are either over 1 billion Calvinists on the planet, or when we think of God's predetermining all things, as a perfect all knowing Father, we cannot invalidate His capacity to intend the full meaning of His promise when He inspired the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.
Whosoever, eradicates the idea of the exclusive predetermined Irresistibly augmented formerly Depraved individual let to be saved by God.
Whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life, tells us that the individual is imbued with the capacity to arrive at a conclusion Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
Whosoever, which is the formal word reflective of whoever, is a relative pronoun and means, the person or people who; any person who. (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/whoever)

The Elect, as is defined in the predestination of the saved in some denominational teachings, refers rather than to any person instead identifies, that one , the person, the singled out. And precludes the broad potential for anyone to receive salvation, in the context of this discussion.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I quite agree.

Election and Predestination however refute that. If we are Predestined to be Chosen (Elected) to receive grace then it is God's doing. Not ours.
One can say that the Predestination factor actually means God predestined saving the human race from its sins by sending the Gospel Good News through Himself as Jesus the Christ. However, being God is Sovereign, God having Predestined this would necessarily mean God predetermined the fall. Otherwise, Omniscient Sovereignty would have no reason to predestine a means of Salvation from sin prior to the world being created.
The inspired word of God was not written to those that are not already his eternally saved children and the scriptures are God's instructions to his children as to how he wants them to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. It also informs his eternally saved children how they were eternally saved by Christ's death upon the cross to pay for their sins. The Gospel is not the cause of our eternal salvation, but the explanation of how we were eternally saved. God did not predestine man's fall. Man brought about his own fall by the free will that God gave him. The only thing that God predestined was that his elect was to be adopted by his Son by paying the price of the adoption on the cross. God choose his children, Jesus payed the price of the adoption and the final phase of the adoption will be when Christ comes back to gather his elect and take them home. We follow the same process when we adopt children here on earth. Parents does the choosing, not the children. Parents pay the legal fees. Parents pick them up and take them home. We, as children of God, have no choice in the matter. God has given mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but the choice of man's eternal destination is by God's grace and not man's choice.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself :cool:.

How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
I believe that we are degrading God by saying that he does not know every decision when the scriptures teach us that God knows our thoughts before we act on them.
 
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I believe that we are degrading God by saying that he does not know every decision when the scriptures teach us that God knows our thoughts before we act on them.
I don't believe God is degraded. In what way? It surely degrades God if we believe he knows every single detail and thing before they happen for the whole of time? He cannot love properly since each and every response to us is predetermined, by behaviour he already knows must come to pass. All praise to him is simply what will happen anyway; no spontaneous outpouring of gratitude. No joy at a surprising response to his love. His life must be one of unutterable boredom. Even "the elect" are simply a response that he already knows. And since all that happens is already known, of what real value is a sacrifice by his son? It bares no cost since the one being paid is expecting it to be paid; its already happened. It is just being played out in one great big puppet show...in which even the audience cannot spontaneously enjoy!

Perhaps God knows our thoughts as we live them, he can see our likely outcomes if we pursue certain paths and can provide help and warnings not to go down certain avenues, or to pursue other ones. He knows our ultimate end is in him.....but the journey is ours to freely choose. He has Faith in his own love to deliver us safely, but the response to that is ours to make. The holy spirit is secretly arranging all things in an unfathomable way to bring the will of God to pass. So there is a big plan behind the little plans, so to speak, in which we may all play our parts. Its mysteriously wonderful! Freely planned and planned freely. Or, in God's ultimate plan we are doomed to make choices.
 

ForestGreenCook

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There are two words primarily applied unto the saved....the words "elect" and "saints" both words are viewed in the following light....

a. The word elect is descriptive of the saved as being "CHOSEN" in Christ

b. The word saint is descriptive of who we are in Christ as "HOLY"

There is a deep divide upon the usage of the word elect and predestination....

My view.....before God cast down the world in creation he predetermined that all who would come to him through faith in Christ would be "elected/chosen" as sons and daughters of God and given eternal life.

That is the basic concept of the word IMV......
Because of what God saw in Psalms 53:2, he had to change his elect's heart in the new birth before they would come to him.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Everything you're saying there comports with Calvinism's TULIP.

And to be clear, I am not trying to teach Dibby the scriptures. I am hoping rather to lead Dibby away from the false doctrine that corrupts the scriptures and is defined as such as Calvinism.
So, is what you are saying is that you don't know how to refute the scriptures that I have presented to you?
 

ForestGreenCook

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I don't believe God is degraded. In what way? It surely degrades God if we believe he knows every single detail and thing before they happen for the whole of time? He cannot love properly since each and every response to us is predetermined, by behaviour he already knows must come to pass. All praise to him is simply what will happen anyway; no spontaneous outpouring of gratitude. No joy at a surprising response to his love. His life must be one of unutterable boredom. Even "the elect" are simply a response that he already knows. And since all that happens is already known, of what real value is a sacrifice by his son? It bares no cost since the one being paid is expecting it to be paid; its already happened. It is just being played out in one great big puppet show...in which even the audience cannot spontaneously enjoy!

Perhaps God knows our thoughts as we live them, he can see our likely outcomes if we pursue certain paths and can provide help and warnings not to go down certain avenues, or to pursue other ones. He knows our ultimate end is in him.....but the journey is ours to freely choose. He has Faith in his own love to deliver us safely, but the response to that is ours to make. The holy spirit is secretly arranging all things in an unfathomable way to bring the will of God to pass. So there is a big plan behind the little plans, so to speak, in which we may all play our parts. Its mysteriously wonderful! Freely planned and planned freely. Or, in God's ultimate plan we are doomed to make choices.
Your whole belief system degrades God by agreeing with him that he wants all mankind to go to heaven but he is not able to accomplish his will, because man won't let him. In your thinking, man has more power than God. In my thinking, that is belittling God.
 
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Your whole belief system degrades God by agreeing with him that he wants all mankind to go to heaven but he is not able to accomplish his will, because man won't let him. In your thinking, man has more power than God. In my thinking, that is belittling God.
I dont think you read what i wrote properly. Love wins in the end. Thats anything but belittling.
 

ForestGreenCook

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God foreknows the entire future and Ha has known the entire history of the universe since the day He created it... From His foreknowledge He already knows whom will accept His will and thus be saved and who will reject His will and this be damned.. From this foreknowledge he has predestined all those people who are accepting Him will to be conformed ( made into the same as) Jesus is now..

Romans 8: KJV
29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

There are people who are called calvinists who believe God made certain people to be saved and He forces them to believe Jesus and be saved and that God created other people who can never have the opportunity to accept the salvation of Jesus.. That God created some people to burn in hell.. I am not a calvinist..
By considering your statement "From his foreknowledge he already knows whom will accept his will and thus be saved" you must have overlooked Psalms 53:2.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I dont think you read what i wrote properly. Love wins in the end. Thats anything but belittling.
So, are you talking about man's love, sense man is the one that makes the choice? Rev 3:19, As many (not all) as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Psalms 73:5, They are not PLAGUED (divinely punished) as other men. God does not love all mankind.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I believe God is LOVE. I don't believe what you are saying.. I won't believe that God has not given us a free will. Thanks for your time. God is GOOD... all the time. Whatever He does... Humans would say.. Like the psalmist.. '' oh taste and see that the Lord is good''..
God has given mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life as he lives here in this world, but man's entrance into heaven is solely by God's choice and not man's.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Ohh. Alright. Any words you would like to say to a non elected person
If you believe that there is a God in heaven and you worship him, that is evidence that you are one of God's elect and heaven will be your eternal home.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Hello Milee777,

Predestined = A PLAN chosen with a PATH

God predestined/elected/choose a "PLAN" of salvation, before creation & time began. Before any sin was ever committed. The "PATH" God choose/elected/predestined unto redemption. Is the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Jesus the Christ. Found in the death (sins wage paid in full) & resurrection (Gods receipt, payment received & accepted). And is applicable only to those that confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pet 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(NOTE: Who = Christ, read vs 19 for context. Before the creation of our world. Before any sin was ever committed. Christ was chosen/elected/foreordained. If it became necessary, to implement & execute God's PLAN for redemption)

Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who ""hath blessed us"" with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ""in Christ""
(NOTE: Eph is written to believers see Ehp 1:1. Vs 3; God, thru Christ has blessed us: US? = believers that are ""in Christ"". In Christ, is a positional statement applicable only to the believer)

4 According as he hath "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
NOTE: Reread 1 Pet 1:20. Vs 4, Before the foundation of the world, God, foreordained/elected/CHOOSE US = believers, that thru faith are positioned "in Christ")

5 Having "predestinated us unto the adoption" of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
(NOTE: Who has God "predestinated us unto the adoption"? Everyone? No, Paul is writting to believers only)

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: Once Christ FINISHED making sin's redemptive payment. Everyone, at some point, will be drawn/offered redemption via the Holy Spirit. And will be faced with making a choice. Believe & trust or reject God's offer)

The Predestined-Chosen-Elect are those who accept God's PLAN by faith & follow it's PATH. The FAITH choice is made by the individual. Faith is a personal choice & is NEVER forced

WHOEVER BELIEVES

Matthew 10:32 Jesus said; Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(NOTE: Jesus says; Whoever WILL CONFESS me before man)

John:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(NOTE: Whoever trust's God & BELIEVES in Jesus sin payment & resurrection)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in the Son)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
God saw by his foreknowledge that none would seek him, no, not one Psalms 53:2. That is why God choose an elect people and had Christ to pay for their sins as the adoption price and according to John 6:38 all of those he died for will live in heaven without the lose of even one. According to 1 Cor 2:14, man cannot discern spiritual things until he has been born of the Spirit. Eph 2.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Not quite true brother. It's not spiritual "things" lost man doesn't believe in because the lost and unregenerate do believe in these things. You're misapplying and misusing the text. In fact you even overuse it. We both know why.

It's the things of the Gospel that the text is referencing particularly that man does not receive. Context. You're pulling the text from it's context to support your teachings.

Man does not receive these specific things, that is the things of the Gospel via the Spirit, he rejects them and it is foolishness to him.

To say lost man doesn't "believe in spiritual things" is a misnomer in addition to a misquoting of the text. It doesn't say he doesn't "believe in spiritual things" so you're completely off track there.
I love to discuss the scriptures with anybody, as long as we can be civil about it. The text in 1 Cor says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. A person understands the things of the Spirit by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him. The natural man, in my understanding of the scriptures, is unteachable about the things of the Spirit because they have to be spiritually discerned.
 
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I love to discuss the scriptures with anybody, as long as we can be civil about it. The text in 1 Cor says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. A person understands the things of the Spirit by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him. The natural man, in my understanding of the scriptures, is unteachable about the things of the Spirit because they have to be spiritually discerned.
How would anyone, where there are disagreements on scriptural interpretation, decide on who is led by the holy spirit?
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Then you must also believe in eternal salvation by your works. Acts 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation. 1 Tim 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine, continue in them, for in doing this thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Nope. Eternal salvation was accomplished by the works of the Christ, not anything they, His elect, did.