Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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ForestGreenCook

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To the Op.

Elect mens chosen, or predetermined. Or special

God chose a nation out of all nations to have a special purpose on earth. They are called his elect (national) and this form has no bearingn n anyone, including that nations salvation.

Then there are the elect. Chosen by God in his foreknowledge, to be saved by the will of God. What is th will of God? In John 6, It says the will of God is al who SEE and BELIEVE will be given eternal life. Never die, and be assured of ressurection to life. How do we see. The bible says through the word.

The bible does say he is the savior of all. But it also mentions that it is ESPECIALLY those who are being save. Just because hee came to save all does not mean all will be saved, He will nt force his salvation on anyone. And do not let anyone tell you otherwise.
God's elect are his adopted children. When a couple goes to an adoption agency to adopt children, do the children choose the couple, or do the couple choose the children. This adoption process is patterned after God's adoption of his elect. God chooses from a people that he saw by his foreknowledge would not seek him Psalms 53:2.
 

stillness

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Walk trough the valley
If they believe in him, that is evidence that they were included in those that God gave to his Son to die for and their sins will not keep them out of heaven, because by his death he made them holy and without blame.
You are referring to those who have washed their robes, but they are not babes. Babes still think like men in the flesh, divided. The last church in Revelation 3:15. The Lord is knocking at the door of a wealty church like in our day. I understand that the judgment will be more merciful and severe than we expect.
 

stillness

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You are referring to those who have washed their robes, but they are not babes. Babes still think like men in the flesh, divided. The last church in Revelation 3:15. The Lord is knocking at the door of a wealty church like in our day. I understand that the judgment will be more merciful and severe than we expect.
A wealthy Christian experienced faling in a prison in hell while awake in the middle of the night. He then gave up his (un) real estate job and warns those who have earthly treasures and are not rich towards God. jesus also warned us. There is a misunderstanding of not by works, crept into the church because of hardness of heart. Exactly what not by works is: our hard heart can't be saved. Our life has to be exchanged with Christ.
It does not mean not by acts of compashion helping the poor. Jesus even said "The poor you have always with you so that you can do them good whenever you will.
 

Nehemiah6

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Imagine how hard it is for God in "borning from above", the "spiritual" man, living in these "sacks of sin?
Then imagine how hard it is for God and everyone else to decipher what you said in this post.
 

MattforJesus

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Apr 15, 2017
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What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
Many people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, but Jesus said not all that say Lord, Lord, will be able to dwell with Him.

So the elect it would seem would be the people that abide in the truth compared to the people that confess Christ but do not abide in the truth.

For some do not hold the right perspective of Jesus so they do not abide in the truth by saying He is a created god, or that He is a good teacher but not Savior, or saying they will be like Christ in power and strength in heaven, which they will be like Christ having a glorified body, but not like Him according to His deity, or like the new age movement on earth where they will be like Christ evolved to be greater and spiritual.

Also Jesus said the hypocrites that did not do the will of the Father cannot dwell with Him, for they were workers of iniquity, which they have a form of godliness, but they deny the Spirit leading them for they want to hang unto the flesh, and believe they are right with God.

So the elect would be those that have the Spirit and would be in the truth, for not everyone that claims Christ has received the Spirit.

And many are called but few are chosen, so the elect are those that have been chosen out of all the many people God calls to follow Him but many fell short of that truth.

The elect has the Spirit of God in them, and because of that they can overcome the flesh, act more like Christ, and understand truth better, and things to come.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

This is referring to the New Age Christ, man of sin, in the future who gets his power from Satan, and into witchcraft, which the false prophet will do miracles in the sight of the people to convince them that the New Age Christ harnessed the power of nature by his occult ways, and obtained power, evolved, and shared this power with the false prophet and will share this power with all who follow the beast.

The elect will not be fooled by it knowing that it is not true, and it is not possible for them to be deceived for they have the Spirit where the hypocrites will have doubts about it, and because of their hypocrisy will fall victim to following the beast, for at that time God will give everyone strong delusion that do not love the truth, which includes the hypocrites.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

When the nations come together in the future and try to establish peace on earth Paul said the saints will not be deceived by it for they know it is not of God, and not the solution to have peace on earth, which the elect will not be deceived because they have the Spirit, where the hypocrites might be led astray by it favoring the new age movement interpretation of the Bible based on the occult and evolution, but at this time it is not strong delusion so many hypocrites will get right with God for they know enough truth to get on track.

It is obvious that the 7 Churches in Revelation are the way Church history will go in popular beliefs at that time, and if there is anything the Spirit says that the saints are doing wrong there is still people that always abide by the truth.

When they first started they were doing great but they left their first love, which could be they were not showing enough love towards people like in the beginning, and Jesus told them to correct it.

And then you can see the Roman Catholic Church influence whose foundation is the occult, and paganism, so they interpret the Bible as such.

Then you see the Protestant movement in the 5th Church but Jesus still had something against them.

And the in the 6th Church the popular beliefs were back to the truth and Jesus did not have anything to say against them.

The 7th Church they were lukewarm, hypocritical, and loved money and material things, which they said they were rich, and increased in goods, and had need of nothing, but they were wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, which is what is happening now in popular beliefs, but there is always people in the truth no matter the falsehood at the time.

Which this could not happen unless technology caused money and material things to flow big time, so there was an abundance to be able to take and heap, which the Bible says the last generation shall devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men, which can only happen by technology for it caused money and material things to flow like a raging river, and they can reach out farther, and to more people to get money, which we know today they are doing that, and millions of dollars, and billions of dollars is not enough for them, as they heap and heap, and reap and reap.

Which Jesus said since iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold, which it is selfishness, and arrogance, and technology caused the selfishness, and arrogance of people to increase so people do not like each other as much which we see today.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus did not have anything to say against the 6th Church, and said He would make them of the synagogue of Satan to come and worship at their feet, which would be Christians that hold an occult, and pagan interpretation of the Bible, which would be the Roman Catholic Church, and the new age movement that hold an occult interpretation of the Bible which will occur at the latter times which is now.

The reason Jesus said that they say they are Jews is because salvation is of the Jews, and a person has to be a Jew to be saved, and when a Gentile is saved they are a Jew inward, and part of the commonwealth of Israel, so this Church was making the claim they were true Christians, but were not.

Jesus said He will deliver all them in the truth from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Which there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole world at the same time and that is when the nations come together and say Peace and safety for the world has a decision to make to either stay with God, or get with God, or follow the world.

Which God said multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision for the world will have to make a choice whether to stay with God, get with God, or follow the world.

The saints in the truth will not be tempted by it for they have the Spirit, and the hypocrites will be tempted by it, and the world will be tempted by it.

So people may have their interpretations of what elect means, but I believe it means those that have the Spirit compared to those who claim Christ who do not have the Spirit, and we know we must have the Spirit to be saved.

But there is hope for those who do not have the Spirit for they can receive the Spirit when they finally embrace the truth of Christianity, which when the nations come together I believe many Catholics will not follow the world, and not follow the Pope and Vatican, for they know enough of the Bible to not go along with the world.

But religions like Buddhism, and Hindu, those types of religions will be influenced by the new age movement that interprets all religions the same, and evolution is religion in which they are still evolving to be greater and spiritual, and do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power.

Which in America they took prayer out of school, and taught evolution, and evolution is believed by many in the world, and science supports evolution, and many believe it has the evidence to prove it.

So they are on their way to the beast kingdom.

Continued,
 

MattforJesus

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Continued,

God commands all people to repent and come to the truth.

God wants all people to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus lights every person born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

The Spirit and the bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation.

God is no respecter of persons but anybody that does righteousness is accepted with Him.

God said what makes you to differ from another person.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So to God everybody is the same, and in the same situation as a sinner, and He has provided salvation for all people.

Many are called but few are chosen so God does the calling and choosing on earth.

If God chooses who will be saved and who will not be saved without their choice, then God's kingdom is not true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that did nothing wrong.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

No person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

God chose us we did not choose Him.

Many are called but few are chosen.

When God calls us He will work with us to get us to the truth, but when we get to the door of truth we have to open it for His kingdom is love, but we would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in our life to get us to the truth.

But many do not go through the door of truth.
 

Whispered

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Your statement does not interpret John 6:38.
You would be so correct. And thank you. :love:

My statement interprets the entirety of Calvinist-Reformed Doctrine to the letter. Because its adherents intend its message to the rest of us here that we are not Elect of God.







 

Whispered

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View attachment 204863




Jesus DID NOT die to affirm the teaching now called, Calvinism.
Calvinism is right in one sense however. It is indeed the RE-Formed version of the Gospel Truth Jesus died to deliver to all the world. Especially those who believe.
 

Whispered

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Nice one.:) Very easy to be smug if you think you are favoured above others.
And that my brother is called, pride, that which puts self above God. Which is a sin. To imagine ones self is certainly one of the Elect and to live in a world thinking scant few others are so, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit God's words wherein He sent himself to save all the world because that is His desire, that NONE should perish.
If God had already determined , and by what criteria one may ask, those whom He would save and those whom He would damn before the world itself came to exist, then the entire diary of God's will from the Book of Genesis unto Revelation, becomes unnecessary. God is playing with Himself, according to the doctrine of Predeterminism.
And all humanity, the first of whom He created intending to make them separated from Himself, are pawns in a game they don't realize they have either lost or won before the game board was made.

Jesus did not die to make Calvinism truth.
 

Dibby53

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This, to me, does not interpret John 6:38.

I don't think you answered his question. The apple tree does not represent the whole world of mankind. The tree is Christ and all of the apples are his fruit, the elect.
In the beginning was the word. ALL things were made through Him.
 

Whispered

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In the beginning was the word. ALL things were made through Him.
This that I lonked below is I believe a blessing. A commentary on the whole of the Book of John chapter 6. I hope it speaks to your heart as you seek in the word.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If we recall that Jesus was the Father in flesh, it is easier to understand the context of Jesus' words, all that the Father hath given me.
God's free irrevocable saving grace was the message He delivered to the world as Emmanuel. That preaching of repentance, regeneration, and eternal life, is the teaching of The Way of Salvation that the Father hath given Jesus who was purposed to minister it unto the whole world. And those one's for whom it resonated would be called, led, by the spirit to repent and be saved.
That isn't the same thing as God calling only those He intended to repentance.
Omniscience cannot be ignorant of anything. Omniscience knows all things eternally. That God knows who would hearken unto the message Jesus delivered does not mean God manipulated the intention of that message to call only those He appointed to respond. (That's the undercarriage of "election" as the Reformed doctrinaires teach it.) Rather, it means that God knows the heart of all people.

If the Reformed Doctrine is correct, then why would God put a barrier called sin, which is a state of being lost in transgression against God's laws, the first of which was, thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, knowing He would only allow certain chosen one's to overcome sin and return fully to Him?
That barrier determined by God after Adam and then Eve did eat that forbidden fruit. A separation between Himself and His human creation after the fall in the garden. Because according to the Reformed Doctrine, God would have had to Elect Adam and or Eve to receive His grace because prior to the world coming to be created and of course Adam and Eve, God had determined whom He would save from sin.
It was all pre-planned from the beginning. Also, Election as the Reformed Doctrine teaches it, makes the cross unnecessary.
Jesus didn't have to die so that those who have faith in Him would be saved. Those whom God had faith in were saved before the world was made. (per the Reformed teachings)


Anyway, please consider the article below. I think it explains the Book of John chapter 6 very well. And since God's word refutes man's conjuration that is the Doctrine of the Re-Formed teachings of Christ, it is necessary. :)

The Bread from Heaven
A. Preparation for the miracle.
 

stillness

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Walk trough the valley
A wealthy Christian experienced faling in a prison in hell while awake in the middle of the night. He then gave up his (un) real estate job and warns those who have earthly treasures and are not rich towards God. jesus also warned us. There is a misunderstanding of not by works, crept into the church because of hardness of heart. Exactly what not by works is: our hard heart can't be saved. Our life has to be exchanged with Christ.
It does not mean not by acts of compashion helping the poor. Jesus even said "The poor you have always with you so that you can do them good whenever you will.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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I am really having a hard time understanding how most of God's children misinterpret John 6:38. It seems plain to me that Jesus only died for those that his Father gave him and he said he would raise them all up at the last day. Can you explain this to me in a way that it will harmonize with the other scriptures? It makes common sense to me that if Jesus died for all mankind, that all mankind will be raised up at the last day.
I agree with election and predestination. It’s your time salvation nonesense that I have a problem with. There is only one salvation and it’s eternal.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Yup HE AINT GIVING UP ON THAT.

After me you and PreacherForTruth done dumpstered that belief A LONG TIME AGO. Glad to see you back brother. Wish Angela and Laish would post more often tooo. We need the REFORMED OGs to make a comeback! I know @UnitedWithChrist looks like he is rockin with us!
How have you been Brother? If you can, PM me and we will chat.
 

ForestGreenCook

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You are referring to those who have washed their robes, but they are not babes. Babes still think like men in the flesh, divided. The last church in Revelation 3:15. The Lord is knocking at the door of a wealty church like in our day. I understand that the judgment will be more merciful and severe than we expect.
No matter how mature we become spiritually, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature, as Paul tells us of the battle within us, and we do, at times, still think like men in the flesh, that is why God asks us to repent each time we revert to our fleshly nature.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I agree with election and predestination. It’s your time salvation nonesense that I have a problem with. There is only one salvation and it’s eternal.
Then you must also believe in eternal salvation by your works. Acts 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation. 1 Tim 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine, continue in them, for in doing this thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
 

ForestGreenCook

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This that I lonked below is I believe a blessing. A commentary on the whole of the Book of John chapter 6. I hope it speaks to your heart as you seek in the word.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If we recall that Jesus was the Father in flesh, it is easier to understand the context of Jesus' words, all that the Father hath given me.
God's free irrevocable saving grace was the message He delivered to the world as Emmanuel. That preaching of repentance, regeneration, and eternal life, is the teaching of The Way of Salvation that the Father hath given Jesus who was purposed to minister it unto the whole world. And those one's for whom it resonated would be called, led, by the spirit to repent and be saved.
That isn't the same thing as God calling only those He intended to repentance.
Omniscience cannot be ignorant of anything. Omniscience knows all things eternally. That God knows who would hearken unto the message Jesus delivered does not mean God manipulated the intention of that message to call only those He appointed to respond. (That's the undercarriage of "election" as the Reformed doctrinaires teach it.) Rather, it means that God knows the heart of all people.

If the Reformed Doctrine is correct, then why would God put a barrier called sin, which is a state of being lost in transgression against God's laws, the first of which was, thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, knowing He would only allow certain chosen one's to overcome sin and return fully to Him?
That barrier determined by God after Adam and then Eve did eat that forbidden fruit. A separation between Himself and His human creation after the fall in the garden. Because according to the Reformed Doctrine, God would have had to Elect Adam and or Eve to receive His grace because prior to the world coming to be created and of course Adam and Eve, God had determined whom He would save from sin.
It was all pre-planned from the beginning. Also, Election as the Reformed Doctrine teaches it, makes the cross unnecessary.
Jesus didn't have to die so that those who have faith in Him would be saved. Those whom God had faith in were saved before the world was made. (per the Reformed teachings)


Anyway, please consider the article below. I think it explains the Book of John chapter 6 very well. And since God's word refutes man's conjuration that is the Doctrine of the Re-Formed teachings of Christ, it is necessary. :)

The Bread from Heaven
A. Preparation for the miracle.
In John 6:40, did Jesus die for only those that see the Son and believe in him, or, as you say, that he died for all mankind? What people did he die for? You are still eliminating the fact that God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him (Psalms 53:2) and before they would seek him, he had to exchange their heart in the new birth, being born again (Ezk 11:19 - - 2 Cor 3:3). It is necessary for the cross for God's elect because it is a requirement that sin must be punished. I understand that you are trying to teach Dibby 53 the scriptures, the best way that you know how, but you are teaching him a false doctrine. John 6:65, Therefore, said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except, it were given unto him of my Father. Only those men (women) that were given to them by the Father could come.
 

ForestGreenCook

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You would be so correct. And thank you. :love:

My statement interprets the entirety of Calvinist-Reformed Doctrine to the letter. Because its adherents intend its message to the rest of us here that we are not Elect of God.







Just the opposite, The doctrine of Jesus allows many more into eternal heaven than any other doctrine I have heard. Ye shall know them by their fruits. If a person, like yourself and probably most on this form, is worshiping God, the best way that they know how, they are one of the elect of God.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I agree with election and predestination. It’s your time salvation nonesense that I have a problem with. There is only one salvation and it’s eternal.
It would still interest me in knowing how you interpret John 6:38 to include all mankind in those he died for.
 

Whispered

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Just the opposite, The doctrine of Jesus allows many more into eternal heaven than any other doctrine I have heard. Ye shall know them by their fruits. If a person, like yourself and probably most on this form, is worshiping God, the best way that they know how, they are one of the elect of God.
I quite agree.

Election and Predestination however refute that. If we are Predestined to be Chosen (Elected) to receive grace then it is God's doing. Not ours.
One can say that the Predestination factor actually means God predestined saving the human race from its sins by sending the Gospel Good News through Himself as Jesus the Christ. However, being God is Sovereign, God having Predestined this would necessarily mean God predetermined the fall. Otherwise, Omniscient Sovereignty would have no reason to predestine a means of Salvation from sin prior to the world being created.