Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Whispered

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stillness

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To refresh your memory concerning the Elect, "Let us go on to perfection, and this we will do if God permits." They are permitted to go on to perfection for they noonger live for themselves: are overcomers, have no fellowship with the works of darkndarkness, no longer remain babes that are quarelsome, but will have part in the first Resurrection. Those who have begun to go on can see the error of those who remain babes: thinking that they know the Lord while leaning on their understanding: thinking they have arrived and have not suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. "For it is given to you, not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer with Him." "Yea all that Live Godly shall suffer persecution." Babes in Christ have not learned to remain in the Love of God and
The doctrine of the Elect of God is also sometimes referred to as , the Doctrine of the Elect of God, or, The Doctrine of Predestination.

It does appear to be contradictory when you put your inquiry into those words. When Jesus died for all why is there that group called the Elect of God?

This topic has been discussed elsewhere on this site so I'll share with you a link to a questions site that focuses on your query.
Question: "Who are the elect of God?"

Two excerpts from that article if you don't feel like reading a single page article.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election (or predestination). One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals.


And

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God. God elects people to salvation, and in time these people will come to faith in Christ because God has elected them.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.
We are "Predesigned to be conformed to the image of His Son. Those who will not, have chosen their identity in the flesh overt identity in Christ. They remain quarelsome and will not enter the "Wisdom of God." These are still governed by the mind of the flesh, under the knowledge of Good and evil and cause divisions in the ChurcChurch; desiring others to be as they are rather than entering the Wisdiom of God.
 

stillness

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Walk trough the valley
Not all that believe will suffer with Him and go on to perfection: to Live in the relationship of Jesus in constant fellpwship with the Father.
 

Dibby53

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What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
I have an apple tree. Not all the fruit will ripen at the same time. When they do ripen I tug gently on the apple and if it is ready it will fall into my hand easily. It is one of the "elect". It is chosen.That doesn,t mean that the other apples will not be chosen in their proper time. They just need more time to ripen.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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In reality, what God saw by his foreknowledge is that none would believe and obey the Gospel. Psalms 53:2 says that he saw that none would seek him and they were all filthy. That is why he choose an elect people. Saved (deliverance) does not always mean eternally, in fact most of the salvation scriptures are referring to a deliverance we receive as we live our lives here in this world. There is a deliverance here in time in coming unto a knowledge of the Gospel,
Still pedaling this time salvation nonsense, eh?
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Still pedaling this time salvation nonsense, eh?
Yup HE AINT GIVING UP ON THAT.

After me you and PreacherForTruth done dumpstered that belief A LONG TIME AGO. Glad to see you back brother. Wish Angela and Laish would post more often tooo. We need the REFORMED OGs to make a comeback! I know @UnitedWithChrist looks like he is rockin with us!
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
Th
To refresh your memory concerning the Elect, "Let us go on to perfection, and this we will do if God permits." They are permitted to go on to perfection for they noonger live for themselves: are overcomers, have no fellowship with the works of darkndarkness, no longer remain babes that are quarelsome, but will have part in the first Resurrection. Those who have begun to go on can see the error of those who remain babes: thinking that they know the Lord while leaning on their understanding: thinking they have arrived and have not suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. "For it is given to you, not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer with Him." "Yea all that Live Godly shall suffer persecution." Babes in Christ have not learned to remain in the Love of God and bear fruit that remaind and "Will suffer lost but will be saved through fire."
Elect: just as in early governments there is election, in election of Grace, those who learn of the Lord to overcome the world will rule with Him. "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him." "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand year reign is finished."
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The doctrine of the Elect of God is also sometimes referred to as , the Doctrine of the Elect of God, or, The Doctrine of Predestination.

It does appear to be contradictory when you put your inquiry into those words. When Jesus died for all why is there that group called the Elect of God?

This topic has been discussed elsewhere on this site so I'll share with you a link to a questions site that focuses on your query.
Question: "Who are the elect of God?"

Two excerpts from that article if you don't feel like reading a single page article.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election (or predestination). One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals.


And

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God. God elects people to salvation, and in time these people will come to faith in Christ because God has elected them.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.
It really amazes me how a person can misinterpret John 6:38 to mean that Jesus died for all mankind, when it plainly states that he only died for those that his Father gave him and he said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day. Can you explain it to me, where I can understand how they interpret it that way? If Jesus is going to raise up all that he died for, in the way most interpret this scripture, wouldn't Jesus have to raise up all mankind?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Still pedaling this time salvation nonsense, eh?
I am really having a hard time understanding how most of God's children misinterpret John 6:38. It seems plain to me that Jesus only died for those that his Father gave him and he said he would raise them all up at the last day. Can you explain this to me in a way that it will harmonize with the other scriptures? It makes common sense to me that if Jesus died for all mankind, that all mankind will be raised up at the last day.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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To refresh your memory concerning the Elect, "Let us go on to perfection, and this we will do if God permits." They are permitted to go on to perfection for they noonger live for themselves: are overcomers, have no fellowship with the works of darkndarkness, no longer remain babes that are quarelsome, but will have part in the first Resurrection. Those who have begun to go on can see the error of those who remain babes: thinking that they know the Lord while leaning on their understanding: thinking they have arrived and have not suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. "For it is given to you, not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer with Him." "Yea all that Live Godly shall suffer persecution." Babes in Christ have not learned to remain in the Love of God and bear fruit that remaind and "Will suffer lost but will be saved through fire."
I am not understanding your position of the babes in Christ. Do you believe that they will go to heaven?
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
It really amazes me how a person can misinterpret John 6:38 to mean that Jesus died for all mankind, when it plainly states that he only died for those that his Father gave him and he said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day. Can you explain it to me, where I can understand how they interpret it that way? If Jesus is going to raise up all that he died for, in the way most interpret this scripture, wouldn't Jesus have to raise up all mankind?
It doesn't amaze me that people that hold God as such a creature are absolutely positive they are among those Jesus died for.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
I am really having a hard time understanding how most of God's children misinterpret John 6:38. It seems plain to me that Jesus only died for those that his Father gave him and he said he would raise them all up at the last day. Can you explain this to me in a way that it will harmonize with the other scriptures? It makes common sense to me that if Jesus died for all mankind, that all mankind will be raised up at the last day.
"To this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." "The Love of Christ compels us, believing that Christ died for all, our old life is nullified so that we no longer live for ourselves but in Him who died and rose again. Therefore from now on we regard no one according to the flesh."
”Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hell gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man by his works."
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,160
164
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Walk trough the valley
I am not understanding your position of the babes in Christ. Do you believe that they will go to heaven?
I just answered further down as it involves someone else's question as well. But we don't decide the judgment of anyone else as there are hidden things off the heart, like trauma that leaves people impaired for years, and we all come short of the Glory of God and rely on His Grace. His Grace is sufficient for us. A word the Lord told me a while ago: What you don't realise is that the battle is already won: it's not as simple as getting the power, you must Love the Truth. Around that time He also told me: Your not ready. Meaning, I am not among those who have overcome the world. It is a journey I have a study on going on to perfection, will be updating the part on my page again as it's a work in progress.
 

Dibby53

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Sep 29, 2019
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It doesn't amaze me that people that hold God as such a creature are absolutely positive they are among those Jesus died for.
Nice one.:) Very easy to be smug if you think you are favoured above others.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Nice one.:) Very easy to be smug if you think you are favoured above others.
The problem with most of the elect is that they think there is a possibility that they may not be one of the elect. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Most of the people, if not all, on this forum are included in the elect family of God, evidenced by their desire to learn more about God. Those who are not of the elect have no desire to know a God that they do not believe exists.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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I just answered further down as it involves someone else's question as well. But we don't decide the judgment of anyone else as there are hidden things off the heart, like trauma that leaves people impaired for years, and we all come short of the Glory of God and rely on His Grace. His Grace is sufficient for us. A word the Lord told me a while ago: What you don't realise is that the battle is already won: it's not as simple as getting the power, you must Love the Truth. Around that time He also told me: Your not ready. Meaning, I am not among those who have overcome the world. It is a journey I have a study on going on to perfection, will be updating the part on my page again as it's a work in progress.
Eph 2, A person is not IN CHRIST, whether a babe, or one who is weaned from the breast, until he has been quickened to a spiritual life and has been put IN CHRIST. Once you are in Christ, as a babe, you began maturing through gaining more knowledge of the truth as the Holy Spirit reveals. We never obtain all knowledge, but we should be continuously growing and learning.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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"To this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." "The Love of Christ compels us, believing that Christ died for all, our old life is nullified so that we no longer live for ourselves but in Him who died and rose again. Therefore from now on we regard no one according to the flesh."
”Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)"
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hell gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man by his works."
This, to me, does not interpret John 6:38.
I have an apple tree. Not all the fruit will ripen at the same time. When they do ripen I tug gently on the apple and if it is ready it will fall into my hand easily. It is one of the "elect". It is chosen.That doesn,t mean that the other apples will not be chosen in their proper time. They just need more time to ripen.
I don't think you answered his question. The apple tree does not represent the whole world of mankind. The tree is Christ and all of the apples are his fruit, the elect.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Not all that believe will suffer with Him and go on to perfection: to Live in the relationship of Jesus in constant fellpwship with the Father.
If they believe in him, that is evidence that they were included in those that God gave to his Son to die for and their sins will not keep them out of heaven, because by his death he made them holy and without blame.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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What if i were the vessel of wrath? What must my attitude be then? How must i live this life after this knowledge?
If you were a vessel of wrath, you would not have a desire to live in heaven, because in your mind you would have no knowledge of there being a God and heaven.