Not By Works

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I have made my position clear...

1. Faith void of anything eternally saves, justifies, seals and sanctifies in Christ positionally
2. Any work, fruit is the result of Christ in us and through us as a living sacrifice
3. Any work or fruit is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ eternally
4. Every man's work will be judged by fire and rewarded accordingly
5. Faithful believers produce works of Gold, silver and precious stones
6. Believers who are not faithful will produce works of wood, hay and stubble yet will remain saved
7. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do that will save other than BELIEVE on Jesus
8. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do to prove salvation...1, 2, 3 or 50000 is irrelevant....only God can judge....and JESUS was clear....even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....
9. It is the ROOT that produces...the root is JESUS......
all these things are stated multiple time in the N.T. if only folks would read the whole Gospels and letters, and NOT try to chop them up into pieces and build theology around the pieces........
 
B

Burninglight

Guest
Was Jesus lying when He said, "A new command I give to you."???

If it was a new command, it did not come from the older covenants.
Yes, it is common sense, but among some common sense is not so common.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Do you mean a 'works save' gospel, or a 'works justify' gospel?

From a purely technical point of view our works save us ONLY IN THE WAY THAT GOD WILL USE THEM AS THE EVIDENCE OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WE HAVE IN CHRIST, NOT AS PAYMENT FOR SALVATION (see Matthew 25:31-46).

I'm not screaming at you, lol. I have to emphasize what I said because there are others in this thread who instantly hear all arguments for works having to be attached to a genuine salvation as an argument for one trying to make them selves righteous before God and earning his salvation. It's hard for them to see that works being required in a genuine salvation experience does not have to mean that those works are earning salvation for that person, but rather are what the Bible itself says true believers will do in their salvation.

I feel like I just stirred the pot up big time, lol.
Man your battle stations!
We are saved by the works of Christ. His work of faith not that of our own self .So works do save just not ours. If we would have the faith of Christ in respect to our own self then we have blasphemed the holy name by which we called
 
S

Sully

Guest
But you can say that people you've never met - people in particular who publicly confess Christ crucified and risen and returning - are "not Christian" ??

And you just told me Christ has already returned, so if I wait for Him, not having yet found that day, I've "missed it" ?

Ok, I think I know who is the whacko in this conversation ....
I said Christ already returned? Your off the rez.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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all these things are stated multiple time in the N.T. if only folks would read the whole Gospels and letters, and NOT try to chop them up into pieces and build theology around the pieces........

AMEN..........and I agree.......reposting it for the sake of moving it up a notch.....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
I have made my position clear...

1. Faith void of anything eternally saves, justifies, seals and sanctifies in Christ positionally
2. Any work, fruit is the result of Christ in us and through us as a living sacrifice
3. Any work or fruit is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ eternally
4. Every man's work will be judged by fire and rewarded accordingly
5. Faithful believers produce works of Gold, silver and precious stones
6. Believers who are not faithful will produce works of wood, hay and stubble yet will remain saved
7. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do that will save other than BELIEVE on Jesus
8. There is NO prescribed amount of works that one can do or must do to prove salvation...1, 2, 3 or 50000 is irrelevant....only God can judge....and JESUS was clear....even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....
9. It is the ROOT that produces...the root is JESUS......
 
P

PHart

Guest
We are saved by the works of Christ. His work of faith not that of our own self .So works do save just not ours.
I gotcha.
Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were trying to say.
 
W

willybob

Guest
My friend no one is asking you to do the Law to be saved. Did you know we are saved by faith?
yes, and faith establishes the law, Romans 3-31... our faith is grounded in the moral law of God (the Law of the Spirit), the 10 commandments magnified, which becomes the bedrock of our faith that manifests deeds done in righteousness from a heart of sincerity and love.....be blessed..
 
P

PHart

Guest
Was Jesus lying when He said, "A new command I give to you."???

If it was a new command, it did not come from the older covenants.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Levitucus 19:18) is, both, an old command AND a new command:

I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him...
1 John 2:7-8 NASB

...not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
2 John 1:5-6 NASB

The command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" has always been in the law of Moses. So it's 'old' in that sense. But the revelation that this single command hidden away in a Leviticus passage about how to obey God is actually what the entire law is based on. It's not even in the Big Ten but it's the second greatest command, immediately following and inextricably linked to the command to "Love God".

It's an old command, but new in revelation. Jesus was not lying. John was not lying. It's both new and old.
 
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willybob

Guest
Sorry, out and no Bible, but your last sentence reminded me of Mathew 13. The Sower. The seeds that grew up with thorns and were chocked by worldly concerns. I O W , killed because of weak faith that never grew, never learned, and was easily abandoned.

yes indeed,,,,,,in all four of the examples Jesus was received, but only in the good grounds of an honest heart having no guile did the word take root an produce fruit....Jesus asked in the gospel of Mark; if you do not know the parable of the sower how then will you understand any of the other parables?...How true, how true..The cares of this world choke the word, and as Paul said; be careful that you don't receive the grace of God in vain....be blessed
 
Apr 15, 2017
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The law is for sinners,so that would mean that not under the law would be for people that are not committing sin,for they do not need a law if they hate sin,and do not want sin,led by the Spirit.If the law says thou shalt not steal,they are not stealing,so that law does not apply in their life,and if the law says do not covet thy neighbors possessions,they are not doing that,so that law could not apply in their life.

The law would not apply to people that are not breaking the law,for the law is for sinners,and not under the law is for people not sinning.

If a person that claims Christ is living in sin,the law applies to them,and they are under the law,for they cannot bypass the spiritual laws,when they are supposed to be spiritual,and that is what they must obey.

If the moral laws,and laws of love,are spiritual,how can we ignore them since we are to be spiritual.

The law is for sinners,and not under the law is for those not sinning.
 
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willybob

Guest
a little fact check- the world was not given the law, only Israel. nothing against the Torah, just a historical fact.
The ordnances were eradicated yes, but the moral law? no...Even the Gentiles who were a law unto themselves had the moral law of conscience grafted in them, Romans 2-14,15......I think I saw someone say that the law was expanded to something like 52 commandments of Jesus in the NT...One of the commandments is for all men everywhere to repent..be blessed
 
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willybob

Guest
For God so loved the world that He gave His beloved son (Jesus) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life Jn. 3:16...... It says "God gave" That means gift. If we have to earn it, it is not a gift.
believe,trust,faith/obey are all synonymous...Faith is a work, trust is a work, obedience is a work...bible 101.....The free gift is forgiveness of past sins, AFTER one has come clean with God in repentance>>> (the preparation of the heart belongs to man, Psalms 16-1a)..and ye that endures to the end the same shall be saved (but the answer of the tongue is that of God, Psalms 16b)..........................be blessed
 
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PHart

Guest
Interesting thing about Hebrews. It was written to people who didn't believe Jesus was enough. So they kept sacrificing animals to make up for what Jesus didn't provide. This is why Paul wrote...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,

There is only ONE sacrifice for sins, Him.
That's why if these Hebrew believers departed from the sacrifice of Jesus they would lose their salvation. There's no more Jesus to pay for their sins if they go back to their old life of unbelief. They lose the one time sacrifice of Jesus if they do that. Grace does not follow the person who willfully returns to his old life of unbelief.

Look here, folks:

23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death fromcontinuing, 24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:23-25 NASB

So we see, the ministry of Jesus must continue in heaven for us, and it does continue in heaven because he lives forever, and, therefore, his sacrifice never stops ministering. So the point is clear, Jesus' one time sacrifice must continue to minister in heaven on our behalf for us to be always saved. But if you stop believing, his ministry will no longer continue to minister on your behalf and you will be lost and come under the wrath of God reserved for his enemies:

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB

(I don't know why I can't remove the italics. Sometimes this site doesn't run very well.)

 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Levitucus 19:18) is, both, an old command AND a new command:

I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him...
1 John 2:7-8 NASB

...not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
2 John 1:5-6 NASB

The command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" has always been in the law of Moses. So it's 'old' in that sense. But the revelation that this single command hidden away in a Leviticus passage about how to obey God is actually what the entire law is based on. It's not even in the Big Ten but it's the second greatest command, immediately following and inextricably linked to the command to "Love God".

It's an old command, but new in revelation. Jesus was not lying. John was not lying. It's both new and old.
Joh 13:34 I am giving you a new commandment to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another.

Joh 13:35 This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

this is different than loving your neighbor as yourself.
 
W

willybob

Guest
Those who surrender their self will to God's will...

Sounds good.
Do we all do this??

Does God will that Christians call others unpleasant names, such as
dishonest
liar

Let me take this even a bit further...
IF it were TRUE, it shouldn't be said to persons you do not know personally.

There is much to learn if we're to call ourselves Christian.
Greetings Fran. I don't think they quite understand what surrender means..To surrender, is to give up all their weapons of sin, and stop the rebellion against God's kingdom....This type of surrender is achieved by crucifying the flesh with its evil passions and desires through the baptism of repentance (2 Cor. 710,11) in a godly season of sorrow not to be regretted of, being cleansed of all guile, and a vessel made fit and ready for the Masters use.....be blessed
 
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PHart

Guest
He knows what He's doing, we don't need to add on to the gospel message, but we do need discipleship after salvation. He commands us of this.
And it is in that sense that works are indeed required to accompany salvation. Not to earn that salvation, but because as you say, works are what saved people do by nature (their new nature). And so works HAVE to be attached to salvation. But for some reason when I and others say what you've said it can only be heard and understood as a 'meritorious works' gospel.
 
S

Sully

Guest
And it is in that sense that works are indeed required to accompany salvation. Not to earn that salvation, but because as you say, works are what saved people do by nature (their new nature). And so works HAVE to be attached to salvation. But for some reason when I and others say what you've said it can only be heard and understood as a 'meritorious works' gospel.
It's the word "required" that is the fork in your path. Hypothetically speaking, what do you call a person who is saved but has no works? Like the thief on the cross...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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believe,trust,faith/obey are all synonymous...Faith is a work, trust is a work, obedience is a work...bible 101.....The free gift is forgiveness of past sins,AFTER one has come clean with God in repentance>>> (the preparation of the heart belongs to man, Psalms 16-1a)..and ye that endures to the end the same shall be saved (but the answer of the tongue is that of God, Psalms 16b)..........................be blessed
Not quite....OBEY is not FAITH, trust or believe....that is the lying twist you put on it to push your dogma and the free gift is salvation and eternal life with EVERY SIN EVER COMMITTED being forgiven and nailed to the cross.....and your endurance until the end has zero to do with salvation and is found within Matthew 24 and deals with physical preservation during the tribulation period....

DUDE....your false, satanic twist of the truth to push your dogma will cost you dearly when you are judged as a false teacher...I suggest JUDE....it tells of the destiny of all who push works (CAINOLOGY)<---the blackness of darkness forever.....
 
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willybob

Guest
Hi Grace777,

Here is the reply that you forgot to post with your cuts and pasts from the got questions website for those interested. Can someone please tell me where in that article does it say in the scriptures that Jesus in our Sabbath and we no longer need to keep the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Commandment of God’s Law the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath as a holy day as God commanded His people to do? Our opinions mean nothing it is only God’s Word that matters (Acts 5:29)

Here was the reply for those interested

So nice to see you and appreciate you sharing with us. Your post from that website however has already been discussed here and shown to be not from God's Word. The main thing that undoes this post is that the 7th Day Sabbath has its origin as part of the creation week which is a finished work and it was given before the fall of mankind before sin entered the World (Gen 2:1-3). This being the case it is impossible for it to be a shadow of anything at all. All the shadows from the laws of Moses pointing to Jesus were given after the fall of mankind because they were pointing to Jesus which was an unfinished promise. Jesus tells us that he made the Sabbath for mankind. This was the Sabbaths original purpose so the we can meet with the creator especially on the 7th Day of the creation week. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and commands us to Keep His day Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Ex 20:8-11). We follow Jesus because we love him and this is what he has asked us of us.

Hope that helps some past links are here if you interested to read about it further.

The real Gospel?

Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)

Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)

Col 2 Sabbath and Shadows of things to come (3)

What is the difference between God's Law and the laws of Moses ?

God's Law and the laws of Moses (1)

God's Law and the laws of Moses (2)


We all as Christians need to consider everyday if we are following God or not in our daily lives. Jesus tells us that we are not following him if we put man-made traditions in place of the Word of God (please read Matt 15:3-9). Sunday worship is a man-made tradition that is a teaching of man and many have been deceived into following this as a day of Worship in place of the 7th Day Sabbath that God has commanded us to follow. The main questions each of us needs to ask ourselves is; Should I believe and follow God's Word or should I follow the teachings and traditions of man?

Once again something for you to think about if you have some time; Please show me one scripture from God's Word that answers even one question below? (you don't need to show me just do it for yourself asking Jesus and study God's Word for yourself)

The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?


Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

Hope this is helpful and gives you something to think about.

God bless
[/QUOTE]

the literal Sabbath day was among the feast days in Lev 23 of which were nailed to the cross....Our Sabbath rest is 24/7 in Christ when ever 2 or more are gathered in His name He is in the mist, anytime any place....when one has ceased from his works of sin, the same has entered into His rest, said Paul...Jesus IS OUR SABBATH DAY 24/7 for those that obey Him. Through much suffering (through repentance), does one cease from sin, said Peter.....be blessed