Not By Works
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Yes there is the discipline of the Lord. It proves we are actually sons...
..My son will always be my son - no matter what he does or does not do. He was "born" my son.
..My son will always be my son - no matter what he does or does not do. He was "born" my son.
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Y
Most often Ephesians 2:8, 9 is quoted without verse 10 which is needed to make the passage make complete sense.
Ephesians 2:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Why didn't you include the what he wrote immediately after that? It reads:
God does not honor men and women and their deeds or their books or their organizations. The Father in heaven delights to honor His Son. It is only the life of the Lord Jesus - His activity, clothed with you and displayed through you - that ultimately will find the approval of God.
Whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in dependence upon His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him. -Colossians 3:17 AMP -The Indwelling Life of Christ
From what I've read of this guy, he and I are basically in sync when it comes to charity/works/deeds/actions. We both believe that charity done as a result of God's transformation of the man are found pleasing to God. Such charity is not "filthy rags". We can produce good works, as Thomas stated. At the same time, we need to be cautious of dead works, which are fleshly and not pleasing to God.
Are you going to address the questions I asked LaurenTM or are we done? It's time to move on from quoting W. Ian Thomas.
God does not honor men and women and their deeds or their books or their organizations. The Father in heaven delights to honor His Son. It is only the life of the Lord Jesus - His activity, clothed with you and displayed through you - that ultimately will find the approval of God.
Whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in dependence upon His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him. -Colossians 3:17 AMP -The Indwelling Life of Christ
From what I've read of this guy, he and I are basically in sync when it comes to charity/works/deeds/actions. We both believe that charity done as a result of God's transformation of the man are found pleasing to God. Such charity is not "filthy rags". We can produce good works, as Thomas stated. At the same time, we need to be cautious of dead works, which are fleshly and not pleasing to God.
Are you going to address the questions I asked LaurenTM or are we done? It's time to move on from quoting W. Ian Thomas.
Y
This is of course true, I just don't know how many times I have heard Christians encourage each other in doing good works as commanded and someone accuses everyone of trying to be saved by good works and create arguments when no one disagrees with them.
I do think if a person rejects keeping Christ's commands they do have a spiritual problem and need to repent. I believe it is God's will to manifest His love to a fallen world (through us; in Him) to comfort hearts and show mercy to the oppressed and turn sinners to righteousness.
Matthew 5:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Titus 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Isaiah 1:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
I do think if a person rejects keeping Christ's commands they do have a spiritual problem and need to repent. I believe it is God's will to manifest His love to a fallen world (through us; in Him) to comfort hearts and show mercy to the oppressed and turn sinners to righteousness.
Matthew 5:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Titus 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Isaiah 1:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
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What a load of garbage... You clearly need to go seek the truth..
Really?
Could you be more vague?
Perhaps you could bring some, I don't know, Scriptures to support your 'load of garbage' view instead of just slinging an insult?
-JGIG
Read the Bible! Why do I have to QUOTE anything? I don't.. if I were talking to maybe but I wasn't
______________________________________
You do realize this is a Bible Discussion Forum, right?
Where folks discuss the actual Bible and what's in it?
That often requires actually QUOTING the Bible, especially when you make claims about what it says.
It appears that you're not here to discuss anything, but to throw 'garbage' at those you disagree with (though you are not willing to defend your position using the actual Bible).
-JGIG
H
As I said, I wasn't talking to you.. so I don't care what you want me to quote, go read.. nothing about being here says I have to reply with what everyone demands.. I can choose just as you, who I answer and don't..
Originally Posted by HisHolly
Originally Posted by JGIG
Really?
Could you be more vague?
Perhaps you could bring some, I don't know, Scriptures to support your 'load of garbage' view instead of just slinging an insult?
-JGIG
Originally Posted by HisHolly
Read the Bible! Why do I have to QUOTE anything? I don't.. if I were talking to maybe but I wasn't
______________________________________
You do realize this is a Bible Discussion Forum, right?
Where folks discuss the actual Bible and what's in it?
That often requires actually QUOTING the Bible, especially when you make claims about what it says.
It appears that you're not here to discuss anything, but to throw 'garbage' at those you disagree with (though you are not willing to defend your position using the actual Bible).
-JGIG
What a load of garbage... You clearly need to go seek the truth..
Really?
Could you be more vague?
Perhaps you could bring some, I don't know, Scriptures to support your 'load of garbage' view instead of just slinging an insult?
-JGIG
Read the Bible! Why do I have to QUOTE anything? I don't.. if I were talking to maybe but I wasn't
______________________________________
You do realize this is a Bible Discussion Forum, right?
Where folks discuss the actual Bible and what's in it?
That often requires actually QUOTING the Bible, especially when you make claims about what it says.
It appears that you're not here to discuss anything, but to throw 'garbage' at those you disagree with (though you are not willing to defend your position using the actual Bible).
-JGIG
I agree with you about how it doesn't get any plainer. In fact, I'm having difficulty understanding how so many cannot see the difference between "works of the law" and "works of faith".
Both are called works in the bible. One saying we're not justified by it, and the other saying contrariwise. Seemingly contradicting one another. However, when someone starts talking about no works for salvation, they immediately show how little they know about faith.
Don't forget that we are saved by grace through FAITH. And it goes on to say, "not by works, lest any man should boast." I think it would be pretty accurate to interpret Paul as saying, "not by [good] works or works of the law..." After all, that what He was talking about.
So no, we are not saved by any good or righteous work that we do that might indicate that we earned our way into heaven by being good or righteous enough. That is a given on both sides of the isle. Yes, those who believe that salvation is by works, also believe that you can never be good enough through your works to enter into heaven.
But there is another works which both Paul and James speak of, and it is called, works of faith. Works of faith have nothing to do with good deeds done for others or anything that we do that God would see as good or upright. So it must be some other kind of work that Paul and James speak of. Both have made it very clear that nothing will happen without an act or work of faith. You will not be able to receive Christ's flesh and blood to have life in you. You will not be able to receive a new and fresh heart and spirit man. So what have you been taught concerning, how one can receive Christ, that they may have eternal life? For most, it is to repent, believe, and confess Jesus as your personal lord and savior. For the most part, that is correct. What would happen if you believed Jesus is the savior of the world, but didn't care to confess Him as your personal savior verbally and receive Him in your heart? Is that person born again just because they believe Jesus is the savior of the world, the Christ or messiah, or even the Son of God or the second person of the Trinity? No, they are not.
So here you have a person that believes, yet did nothing with what they believed and so join a church and got into bible studies and because they had learned so much, they even started teaching others what the word of God says. They attend church regularly, they tithe, give to the poor, help the helpless, minister the word of God to others, and so on. By all accounts, they appear to be a born again child of God. But they will be ever learning, but never able to come to the truth of the gospel, because they never received Christ by faith. Salvation is not made through easy believism. That's one reason why so many don't get healed. They think they believe, but don't. Yes, salvation is easier to believe for, because in most cases, no one is expecting anything to happen to them in the natural or anything they can feel, such as when one is healed of a sickness or disease. But without corresponding action to what you believe, your faith is dead.
As it is written, 2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Speaking what you believe you have received is a corresponding work of your faith. It has nothing to do with any good deed or work or work of the law. It is simply acting on what you believe in your heart. Thanking and praising Jesus for saving them, is definitely a work of faith that causes one to receive salvation. Our faith must have a corresponding work in order for our believing to come to pass or for it to manifest in the natural.
It is my hope that some will be able to see/perceive and understand this simple truth. We are not saved by works, nor do we keep our salvation by works, but on the other hand, no man or adult ever received salvation or eternal life without works.
Both are called works in the bible. One saying we're not justified by it, and the other saying contrariwise. Seemingly contradicting one another. However, when someone starts talking about no works for salvation, they immediately show how little they know about faith.
Don't forget that we are saved by grace through FAITH. And it goes on to say, "not by works, lest any man should boast." I think it would be pretty accurate to interpret Paul as saying, "not by [good] works or works of the law..." After all, that what He was talking about.
So no, we are not saved by any good or righteous work that we do that might indicate that we earned our way into heaven by being good or righteous enough. That is a given on both sides of the isle. Yes, those who believe that salvation is by works, also believe that you can never be good enough through your works to enter into heaven.
But there is another works which both Paul and James speak of, and it is called, works of faith. Works of faith have nothing to do with good deeds done for others or anything that we do that God would see as good or upright. So it must be some other kind of work that Paul and James speak of. Both have made it very clear that nothing will happen without an act or work of faith. You will not be able to receive Christ's flesh and blood to have life in you. You will not be able to receive a new and fresh heart and spirit man. So what have you been taught concerning, how one can receive Christ, that they may have eternal life? For most, it is to repent, believe, and confess Jesus as your personal lord and savior. For the most part, that is correct. What would happen if you believed Jesus is the savior of the world, but didn't care to confess Him as your personal savior verbally and receive Him in your heart? Is that person born again just because they believe Jesus is the savior of the world, the Christ or messiah, or even the Son of God or the second person of the Trinity? No, they are not.
So here you have a person that believes, yet did nothing with what they believed and so join a church and got into bible studies and because they had learned so much, they even started teaching others what the word of God says. They attend church regularly, they tithe, give to the poor, help the helpless, minister the word of God to others, and so on. By all accounts, they appear to be a born again child of God. But they will be ever learning, but never able to come to the truth of the gospel, because they never received Christ by faith. Salvation is not made through easy believism. That's one reason why so many don't get healed. They think they believe, but don't. Yes, salvation is easier to believe for, because in most cases, no one is expecting anything to happen to them in the natural or anything they can feel, such as when one is healed of a sickness or disease. But without corresponding action to what you believe, your faith is dead.
As it is written, 2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Speaking what you believe you have received is a corresponding work of your faith. It has nothing to do with any good deed or work or work of the law. It is simply acting on what you believe in your heart. Thanking and praising Jesus for saving them, is definitely a work of faith that causes one to receive salvation. Our faith must have a corresponding work in order for our believing to come to pass or for it to manifest in the natural.
It is my hope that some will be able to see/perceive and understand this simple truth. We are not saved by works, nor do we keep our salvation by works, but on the other hand, no man or adult ever received salvation or eternal life without works.
Jesus, Yeshua, is our righteousness once we are repented and have faith in Him. Any works givin us by our Father after our Salvation are Christ's righteousness dwelling in us.
Cetainly anything we do withoutp God is a filthy rag, but with God directing us to do works they are washed in the Blood of Christ quite literally, and nothing could be whiter.
Cetainly anything we do withoutp God is a filthy rag, but with God directing us to do works they are washed in the Blood of Christ quite literally, and nothing could be whiter.
Obedience leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to holiness which results to eternal life.(romans 6:16,19 & 22).Can a man be obedient, righteous & holy by doing bad works? Would the spirit of God in us lead us to do what our sinful nature desires?(romans 8:1-17 ). Is to act justly, to love mercy & to walk humbly with God not good works?(micah 6:8)
Our Lord Jesus came to (obey) do the will of God(heb 10:8-10 & 5:8) & ordered His disciples to obey His commandments(mat 28:19-20), while king Solomon taught the same thing.(eccle 12:13). For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(romans 5:19 & 21) For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.(rom 11:32)
If it is God who works in us both to will & to act acxdg to His good purpose(phil 2:13 & rom 8:28) , according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(eph 1:11). can’t He save us with His works done thru us? I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.(gal 2;20)
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.(john 3:6) The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.(john 6:63). Just as the head controls the body, we are now controlled by the spirit of God(rom 8:1-17) Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.(1cor 11:3)
It is very clear now that good works is God’s work. It was written that good works are like filthy rags during the time when the spirit of God(Holy Spirit) was not yet given to us. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 tim 3;16-17) And indeed,”As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead and you see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”(james 2:24 & 26)
Our Lord Jesus came to (obey) do the will of God(heb 10:8-10 & 5:8) & ordered His disciples to obey His commandments(mat 28:19-20), while king Solomon taught the same thing.(eccle 12:13). For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(romans 5:19 & 21) For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.(rom 11:32)
If it is God who works in us both to will & to act acxdg to His good purpose(phil 2:13 & rom 8:28) , according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,(eph 1:11). can’t He save us with His works done thru us? I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.(gal 2;20)
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.(john 3:6) The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.(john 6:63). Just as the head controls the body, we are now controlled by the spirit of God(rom 8:1-17) Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.(1cor 11:3)
It is very clear now that good works is God’s work. It was written that good works are like filthy rags during the time when the spirit of God(Holy Spirit) was not yet given to us. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 tim 3;16-17) And indeed,”As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead and you see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”(james 2:24 & 26)
All these verses are specifically referring to How a person GETS SAVED. There are hundreds of other verses in Scriptures that plainly teach what a person MUST do once they ARE SAVED.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. :9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
This is NOT a suggestion, this is NOT saying try to put off these things, this Holy Inspired Word of God is teaching us CHRISTIANS what we MUST do now that you ARE SAVED. Woe to this generation who does not understand the simplicity of believing the Scriptures.
Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
NOT a suggestion, but what Scriptures plainly and simply instructs those who ARE SAVED to DO. Woe to this generation who believe this or that particular verse all the while make void hundreds of other verses because they do not line up with their doctrines that they hold on to.
People, wake up. Understand there is a big difference from "Getting Saved" and "Being Saved" Better start understanding this, or you will find that you are left behind.
Most Typical Christian of today believe and rely on all the verses about "Getting Saved" and altogether ignore, make void, or interpret away, all the hundreds of verses which plainly teach what a person MUST Do once they ARE SAVED.
Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
NOT a suggestion, what we are suppose to do. What? if a person does Good Works in this generation they are judged as trying to get to Heaven through their good works? And don't let anyone teach in this generation to make sure to maintain Good Works, because if you do they will hang you at the stake and start fire to it, because you are teaching works for Salvation, you are evil if you teach to this generation that Faith and Works go hand in hand. EXACTLY what Scriptures plainly teach as well. But no this generation don't have any works, therefore to justify their own NOT having any works, persecute those who teach you are suppose to have works ALSO.
Surely if i tell you a Truth, you will say that i am boasting and the such, but so that you may grasp the TRUTH, i will tell it to you. whatsoever i ask in prayer, i do receive. (only one exception though) What am i now evil and wicked because i tell you that God grants to me whatsoever i ask in prayer? Do you also think the Apostles are evil and wicked as well for they testify to the same thing.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
So let me understand, if i say that same thing, which is True, i am wicked and evil, but if the Apostle says it, he is right and Holy? How does the Apostle John get from Jesus whatsoever he asks Him for? Well he plainly tells us that too.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ (FAITH), AND 2) love one another (WORKS), as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
i teach Faith + Works = Salvation, which i also live by. i have Faith and Works and anything i ask in prayer is given to me. Do you ask and receive not? Maybe because you believe in Faith ONLY, and have no works at all. Therefore is the reason your prayers are not answered. i teach what Scriptures teach. Those who believe Scriptures will believe what i teach, because what i teach is what Scriptures teach. Jesus and i are ONE. Light up the torches, there will be a fire tonight.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Again evidence of not listening to what i actually said. i never said i speak for God, not one time have i said that, or even implied that. So then where does this lie come from? If you are going to accuse a Brother or Sister of a thing, please get your facts together before doing so, it is the Godly thing to do. satan just accuses without showing the evidence of the accusations, you do not belong to satan, but to God, therefore if you accuse me of saying "I speak for God" then show where i have done that thing, so that i may repent of it. Howbeit, i know what i said, and i never said that.
i say and teach that what i teach is what God told me. i do not speak for God, i merely repeat what He has told me in past conversations with Him my whole entire life up to 1994. So i do not speak for God. Will you now repent of this accusation, we will see.
lol, not mine ONLY, but every single person God puts into your path trying to help you see the error of your thinking will be a witness against you, when you say, you didn't know.
What is that to me? It is not my calling to CONVINCE anyone of the Truths which i teach, which i testify comes from Him. It is merely my calling to present it to you, which i have done, which pleases Jesus Christ. If you reject the Truth, you do not reject me, but Him who told me those Truths is who you reject.
It's like a Boss telling me to go tell Bob that if he is late one more time, he is going to be Fired. So i go to Bob and tell him what the Boss said. Bob, because he does not like me, nor does he believe the message, refuses to believe the Boss told me to tell him that. Does Bob's belief change the TRUTH that the Boss did tell me to tell Bob that? What is it to me, if Bob does not believe it? That's on Bob. i have done what the Boss asked me to do. It is not my fault if Bob does not believe the message that the Boss told me to tell him. So Bob is late the next day also, and the Boss Fires him. Bob does not understand why he is being fired. And the Boss will say, didn't Dave tell you that if you were late again you would be fired? Bob responds, yeah, but i thought he was lying, i didn't know he was telling the Truth. The Boss says "What is that to me, if you did not believe him? Go your way, you have been warned, and you refused to hear it."
What i tell you comes from the Boss. What is it to me if you do not believe it does. Am i to get all upset because you and as you say EVERYONE on this site, thinks what i teach does not come from God? Nay, i have told you the TRUTH, and you reject it, because the TRUTH is not in you. Have i said anything contrary to Scriptures? NO. i have said nothing but "Stop obeying satan", Start only obeying Jesus Christ, and LOVE ONE ANOTHER. All things which Scriptures plainly teach also, but because those TRUTHS are not in you, they have no place in your heart. This generation loves to sin, and refuses to cease from them, all the while living in sins, thinking they are Heaven bound. i have done nothing but warn you to cease from obeying satan, but because this generation loves to sin, and will refuse to hear anyone who teaches to stop sinning, the Truth is rejected. All been warned.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
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