Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Ok, now I knew that Hebrews was to believing Jews and I can make sense of this, but never heard this about James written to the Jews. That's a brighter light....so will reread then with this in mind. Plus, word studies. They have never failed me.

'Justified' has more than one meaning. One means to be made righteous. Another is to be shown to be righteous. Paul is talking about the former, while James is talking about the latter. In a genuine salvation experience you have both 'justifications'. You can't have one without the other or else you show that you are not born again.

 

[Ralph-]

Am lobbing the question back to you Ralph.

Yes, I can be nice to those who have made me out to be their enemy and who hold a grudge against me.

 

[1ofthem]

Where Magenta?

Paul also withstood Peter face to face, and Paul and Mark where also at odds at one time too.

 

[Ralph-]

You said you didn't understand James until you studied it.

You won't discern the answer by studying the passage. You have to know ahead of time that 'justified' has two distinct meanings. We don't know this because it's not a word that we use in everyday communication.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Are you only able to be nice to people you agree with? Even 'sinners' do that.

31“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. Luke 6:31-32

just a quick character witness

me and p4t have had big disagreements
arguments and clashed heads before

even now disagree on a few things

but our pms are very civil and he has shown me respect even when we didnt agree on some things


also a confession

i have gotten pretty defensive when someone questioned if what i believed was actually true (even recently)

good verses though

they should ring true to everyone here

and thank you for the reminder

i know i should be more ready to examine myself if i am walking according to the spirit when im faced with adversity

 

[TruthTalk]

I have to disagree here, If they are coming back in this way, when the owners of this site have banned them,. They are in sin, I would not want to enable their sin, They should have to wait until their ban expires like everyone else has. There are reasons they got banned. Both were pretty severe reasons. Sin has consequences, we should not try to remove the consequences.

The people you are referring to are false teachers and should not be trying to convert Christians to their false teaching in the Church or on an international Christian website. They are deceivers and impostors, Romans16:17, and their lies are sugar coated with sweet words that are taken from the bible but are not rooted and grounded in the truth. When you confront their lies all you get is more sugar coated lies, deceptions. PJ had many anger issues but finally his true colors came through.

False teachers should be confronted because knowingly or not; they lead people who are unaware onto the wrong path. If you say well, they seemed so loving, look out.
(Impostors are not what they seem to be).

True and False Prophets: Matthew7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

Paul and the False Apostles: 2 Corinthians11:12-15
12) And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13) For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15) It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. "Keep away from them" Romans16

 

[mailmandan]

The people you are referring to are false teachers and should not be trying to convert Christians to their false teaching in the Church or on an international Christian website. They are deceivers and impostors, Romans16:17, and their lies are sugar coated with sweet words that are taken from the bible but are not rooted and grounded in the truth. When you confront their lies all you get is more sugar coated lies, deceptions. PJ had many anger issues but finally his true colors came through.

False teachers should be confronted because knowingly or not; they lead people who are unaware onto the wrong path. If you say well, they seemed so loving, look out.

True and False Prophets: Matthew7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

Paul and the False Apostles: 2 Corinthians11:12-15
12) And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13) For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15) It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. "Keep away from them" Romans16

 

[Magenta]

Where Magenta?

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]

Paul’s Teaching​

[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]

James’ Teaching​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are savedwithout works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he is saved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as the means of salvation: it is wrong to say that a person must do good works in order to besaved)

These are meritorious works, that is,works done to try to merit or earnsalvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to be the result of salvation: a person does good works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works thatspring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works must accompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit.3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits the kingdom only by faith (James 2:5) andthat Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham whenhe first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 and compare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abrahamwhen his faith was tested by God, about 40 years later (James 2:21 and compareGenesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (the error of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person is saved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner maybe justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer canshow that his faith is genuine(justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voiced any disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right withGod. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both men wrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he might get right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstrate the reality of his faith. www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm

 

[Ralph-]

Truly feeling sad at this post.

You REALLY think Jesus was saying we need to obey the Law MORE strenuously than the Pharisees did?

Yes. But which isn't a stretch since they didn't keep it (Jesus is showing them this in Matthew 5), and we have the Holy Spirit. They did not.

And that's how we're going to be saved?

If you mean to get saved. No.

How did you jump to the conclusion that having to keep the law is how we get saved? Haven't you ever been taught that faith upholds the law, not tramples it underfoot? You can argue the details, but the fundamental fact remains that faith upholds the law, not destroys it-Romans 3:31. I know, I know, the church is not taught this even though the Bible plainly says it.

Smack dab in the middle of the Chapter Jesus gives us the answer.

HE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW!

Praise His Holy Name!

If you think that means you don't have to uphold the law then you are quite deceived. You probably can't see that because you probably do not know what's in the law. Law to the church usually equates to Sabbaths and Holy Days and nothing else.

 

[mailmandan]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]

Paul’s Teaching​

[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]

James’ Teaching​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]You cannot be saved by works
(Ephesians 2:8-9)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]You cannot show that you are savedwithout works (James 2:14,18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]How can a person be saved?


By faith alone (Rom. 3:28)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]How can a person show that he issaved? How can he “show his faith”?

Only by works (James 2:18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith without works saves
(Romans 3:28)
This is a living faith (saving faith)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]Faith without works does not save
(James 2:14)
This is a dead faith (James 2:17,20,26)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Faith alone saves[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The faith that saves is not alone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]A person is not saved by works
(“works” are rejected by Paul as themeans of salvation: it is wrong to say that aperson must do good works in order to besaved)

These are meritorious works, that is,works done to try to merit or earnsalvation[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]A saved person will perform good works
(“works” are understood by James to bethe result of salvation: a person doesgood works because he is saved)


These are faith works, that is, works thatspring from a faith that is real and living.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul agreed with James

He taught that good works mustaccompany saving faith (Eph. 2:10; Tit.3:8; Gal. 5:6; Phil. 2:11-12).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James agreed with Paul

He taught that a person inherits thekingdom only by faith (James 2:5) andthat Abraham was justified by faith (2:23)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul used the example of Abraham whenhe first believed in God (Rom. 4:3 andcompare Genesis 15:6).[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James used the example of Abrahamwhen his faith was tested by God, about40 years later (James 2:21 and compareGenesis 22)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]The error Paul corrected:
Salvation is by the works of the law (theerror of legalism)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]The error that James corrected:
Works are unnecessary after a person issaved (the error of antinomianism)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul wrote about how a guilty sinner maybe justified before God.[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James wrote about how a believer canshow that his faith is genuine(justification or vindication before men)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 100%, colspan: 2"]At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the key issue was that salvation is by gracethrough faith and not by the works of the law. See the error in Acts 15:1 and Peter’sconclusion in Acts 15:9,11. James, who took a lead role in this discussion never voicedany disagreement with Peter or Paul over this crucial matter.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 50%"]Paul’s perspective: He was viewing theguilty sinner who needed to be right withGod. (The sinner is in view)[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 50%"]James’ perspective: He was viewing thebeliever (or professing believer) whoneeded to demonstrate that his faith wasreal. (The believer is in view)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Paul and James did not contradict each other; but rather they complemented each other. What both menwrote was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) and true. Paul’s focus was on the unsaved man and how he mightget right with God. James’ focus was on the saved person and how he might show his faith and demonstratethe reality of his faith. www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm

Amen Magenta! Paul and James do not contradict each other.

They are just describing true faith from two different perspectives:

Man is saved by grace through faith (apart from the merit of works - Ephesians 2:8,9).

Yet true faith (does not remain apart from the presence of works - James 2:14-24).

 

[PennEd]

Yes. But which isn't a stretch since they didn't keep it (Jesus is showing them this in Matthew 5), and we have the Holy Spirit. They did not.



If you mean to get saved. No.

How did you jump to the conclusion that having to keep the law is how we get saved? Haven't you ever been taught that faith upholds the law, not tramples it underfoot? You can argue the details, but the fundamental fact remains that faith upholds the law, not destroys it-Romans 3:31. I know, I know, the church is not taught this even though the Bible plainly says it.


If you think that means you don't have to uphold the law then you are quite deceived. You probably can't see that because you probably do not know what's in the law. Law to the church usually equates to Sabbaths and Holy Days and nothing else.

Gosh. I hate to break out an Avatar clip, but sometimes these mother earth secular stuff has a bit of truth to it:

Please empty YOUR cup:

[video=youtube;fkv7O_mOn_E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkv7O_mOn_E[/video]

 

[stonesoffire]

'Justified' has more than one meaning. One means to be made righteous. Another is to be shown to be righteous. Paul is talking about the former, while James is talking about the latter. In a genuine salvation experience you have both 'justifications'. You can't have one without the other or else you show that you are not born again.

I see that it does in the OT.

But, only this in the new.

[h=1]G1344[/h]δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.
Total KJV occurrences: 40

But, imputed righteousness is not based on men and neither is justification. All based on Jesus, His blood.

To go outside of our union with Him and His death is to declare we have something to offer Father as a reason why we live in His Presence and speak face to face with Him.

I believe my stance is what it means to abide in Him.

Not saying men will live in sin. Temptation and giving in is not living in sin. There's always remorse.

We've been freed from darkness, placed into light. Light increases as we look at Him and that will affect our actions.

Not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.

We need continual revelation of Jesus.

 

[stonesoffire]

Paul also withstood Peter face to face, and Paul and Mark where also at odds at one time too.

Yes, that's true. Peter was at fault. Mark? Not sure what happened. Would have to reread.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said you didn't understand James until you studied it.

Well, truthfully I see a contradiction. And it's a fact that Paul and James had disagreements.

But, there are two James. James the just, and the brother of Jesus. So which wrote the book? Which did Paul disagree with?

I disagree, If james and paul are in opposition, one of them has to go. Or the Bible is not to be trusted. Because one of. Them are wrong.

As for which james, When I wrote what you said earlier about james and paul fighting, paul fought with peter. Should we be Leary of peter also? Just saying,

 

[stonesoffire]

You won't discern the answer by studying the passage. You have to know ahead of time that 'justified' has two distinct meanings. We don't know this because it's not a word that we use in everyday communication.

And you would know this how?

 

[Magenta]

Amen Magenta! Paul and James do not contradict each other.

They are just describing true faith from two different perspectives:

Man is saved by grace through faith (apart from the merit of works - Ephesians 2:8,9).

Yet true faith (does not remain apart from the presence of works - James 2:14-24).

Thank you Dan, and all else There are wonderful resources online Sometimes they are hard to find as they get intermixed with false teachings on the information super highway, so discernment is needed, just as it is to realize we will not always see the good works of others, nor is it our responsibility to be fruit inspectors of all, as someone used to say... Not seeing the good works of another does not automatically equate to that other not being saved. The way some people talk, you would think it did. Only God knows the heart

 

[stonesoffire]

I disagree, If james and paul are in opposition, one of them has to go. Or the Bible is not to be trusted. Because one of. Them are wrong.

As for which james, When I wrote what you said earlier about james and paul fighting, paul fought with peter. Should we be Leary of peter also? Just saying,

And you missed a post. Go back a bit EG.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, now I knew that Hebrews was to believing Jews and I can make sense of this, but never heard this about James written to the Jews. That's a brighter light....so will reread then with this in mind. Plus, word studies. They have never failed me.

James was written to the 12 tribes. Also. james was a leader in the churhc at Jerusalem. Many also think, and I agree, james was one of the first epistles written, before Paul.

 

[Chester]

And now there is 50000 and I have it!

 

[John146]

Abraham was justified before he did one work. Paul makes this clear in Romans 4. And it is seen in Genesis.

James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham's justification was not fulfilled until he offered up Isaac as a sacrifice.