Not By Works

[ruach]

Paul also withstood Peter face to face, and Paul and Mark where also at odds at one time too.

It was actually Barnabas and Paul who had the disagreement and it was over John Mark

Acts 13:13

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now Paul and his companions put out to sea from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia; but John left them and returned to Jerusalem.

Acts 15:36-39

[SUP]36 [/SUP]After some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus.

 

[Ralph-]

Whatever, I disagree,

Your twisting the words. The world as a whole was always called the world. 12q tribes has ALWAYS been representative of the 12 children of Israel.

But it has also always included the goyim (spelling?).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible can be trusted, but we need to listen to Paul's command to rightly divide the word of truth so we don't get truth crossed over different audiences. God has been dispensing truth to man throughout human history. Some truths are not meant to be obeyed by other audiences than the one intended. All truth to the body of Christ, we should observe. Truth given to the Jew, we need to be careful about how we proceed.

God is the same today yesterday and tomorrow. His word never changed’

Your right though, we have to properly interpret by taking context into account

James wrote to people who were hearers, NOT DOERS, who CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH but had zero zip nada works. (The same people Jude called turned the grace of God to licentiousness)

Paul spoke to people who CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH, but wanted to add works of righteousness to the gospel (legalism)

 

[PennEd]

And now there is 50000 and I have it!

What!!!


I close my eyes...... Only for a moment then the moments gone.... Dust in the wind!!

Oh well. There's still last person to post award.

Pretty cool that the 50000th post is on the 2500th page!

 

[preacher4truth]

The whole point (or at least the major point) of James 2:14 is this: It asks "can that faith save him?"

The answer is a resounding no, because that kind of faith is not true faith.

He then goes on to prove Sola Fide (faith alone) by showing what true faith looks like. His argument supports Paul and solidifies justification by faith.

But the workers cannot see this, they make salvation by works, when all works do is prove true faith and conversion.

 

[VCO]

WORKS:

Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

FAITH:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

FAITH + WORKS:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

FAITH + WORKS:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Oh, I See Where You Went Wrong.

YOU PUT ABRAHAM'S FAITH, AFTER HIS WORKS.

HE WAS SAVED THROUGH OF HIS FAITH BY THE GOD'S GRACE, BEFORE ABRAHAM HAD A CHANGE TO OBEY GOD.


Romans 4:3-5 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


NOT after he had exercised enough works, it was COUNTED the moment he had the BELIEF that GOD would do what He said he said he would do. AFTER WE ARE SAVED, then the HOLY SPIRIT poured the LOVE OF GOD INTO OUR HEARTS.


Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Romans 5:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.


SEE IT? WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD, while we were ENEMIES TO GOD. NOT AFTER WE HAVE DONE WORKS.

What you are missing is the FACT that GOD'S LOVE in our hearts, after we are SAVED, produces a harvest out of that LOVE from GOD, a means to LOVE GOD BACK by works, because HE first LOVED US.


1 John 4:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love because he first loved us.


1 John 5:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

 

[1ofthem]

It was actually Barnabas and Paul who had the disagreement and it was over John Mark

Acts 13:13

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now Paul and his companions put out to sea from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia; but John left them and returned to Jerusalem.

Acts 15:36-39

[SUP]36 [/SUP]After some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.. it was over Mark...Don't know why but I always thought when I read verse 39 that they all were arguing... So I'm sorry about that...I guess I just read too much into that one...so thanks for the correction.

 

[John146]

Rom 4: What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”[c]

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised,

You resolve the contradiction (supposed)

I already have, Until you do, You will never resolve James, but continue to make paul contradict james

Paul is using Abraham as a type of justification that believers in Christ enjoy, but it's not identical. James is using Abraham as a type of Jew who is justified by faith and works in the tribulation when the twelve tribes are scattered abroad.

 

[John146]

The whole point (or at least the major point) of James 2:14 is this: It asks "can that faith save him?"

The answer is a resounding no, because that kind of faith is not true faith.

He then goes on to prove Sola Fide (faith alone) by showing what true faith looks like. His argument supports Paul and solidifies justification by faith.

But the workers cannot see this, they make salvation by works, when all works do is prove true faith and conversion.

Agreed, but his audience is not the body of Christ, but the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The twelve tribes will be scattered during the tribulation in a faith plus works system.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is using Abraham as a type of justification that believers in Christ enjoy, but it's not identical. James is using Abraham as a type of Jew who is justified by faith and works in the tribulation when the twelve tribes are scattered abroad.

Ok, continue to believe that, You are probably the only one who does. But that is fine, we have a lot of them on CC.

Me, i will continue to believe Paul was fighting the legalist. Who tried to add works.

James was speaking to the jew who just heard this new grace thing, and went too far in their new freedom. And thought they could just believe and be saved, they did not have to be do anything (hearers of the word only, not doers, as james said)

And the equations

salvation plus works are a result of faith (paul)

yet faith will always produce salvation plus works, if one is missing (ie works) the other is missing also (salvation) ie, our justification is dead, because our faith was dead. Works had nothing to do with it. .

thus james did NOT contradict paul. he complimented him with a different context.

But again, you believe what you want.

 

[preacher4truth]

Agreed, but his audience is not the body of Christ, but the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The twelve tribes will be scattered during the tribulation in a faith plus works system.

How did I know you could twist the meaning so badly?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed, but his audience is not the body of Christ, but the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The twelve tribes will be scattered during the tribulation in a faith plus works system.

The 12 triples of Isreal had been scattered abroud since babylon, they never fully returned to Isreal. It was prophesied in the OT. The only people who were said to be scattered are physical children of Isreal.

 

[John146]

Ok, continue to believe that, You are probably the only one who does. But that is fine, we have a lot of them on CC.

Me, i will continue to believe Paul was fighting the legalist. Who tried to add works.

James was speaking to the jew who just heard this new grace thing, and went too far in their new freedom. And thought they could just believe and be saved, they did not have to be do anything (hearers of the word only, not doers, as james said)

And the equations

salvation plus works are a result of faith (paul)

yet faith will always produce salvation plus works, if one is missing (ie works) the other is missing also (salvation) ie, our justification is dead, because our faith was dead. Works had nothing to do with it. .

thus james did NOT contradict paul. he complimented him with a different context.

But again, you believe what you want.

When you do this, you are contradicting every other usage of the term twelve tribes in Scripture. Twelve tribes always means the nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out group of Christians from those tribes.

There are obvious those in James' audience who needed their souls saved.

James 121 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

 

[ruach]

How did you jump to the conclusion that having to keep the law is how we get saved? Haven't you ever been taught that faith upholds the law, not tramples it underfoot? You can argue the details, but the fundamental fact remains that faith upholds the law, not destroys it-Romans 3:31. I know, I know, the church is not taught this even though the Bible plainly says it.

Are you saying that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law or the Law of Christ?

Romans 3:27-31

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.





Regarding Romans 3:31:

I believe Paul was telling us by faith we fulfill the law. We can see this because Jesus Christ's own personal Faith to go to the cross, be buried and raised again fulfilled the law.

Gal 3:23-29
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.



Hebrews 5:7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, [SUP]10 [/SUP]being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.



Hebrews 12:1-2
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[John146]

The 12 triples of Isreal had been scattered abroud since babylon, they never fully returned to Isreal. It was prophesied in the OT. The only people who were said to be scattered are physical children of Isreal.

Yep, and again in the tribulation.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Not just vain words but truth. For James' audience, the truth is the Lord's coming is near.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


Again, the Lord is standing ready to return.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

If you're a Jew in the tribulation, look to Job for patience through suffering. Job's 42 chapters pictures the 42 months of tribulation for the Jew. For those who endure to the end(Matthew 24:13), their ending will be far greater than their beginning.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Is this doctrine for the body of Christ today? Really?

 

[stonesoffire]

James was written to the 12 tribes. Also. james was a leader in the churhc at Jerusalem. Many also think, and I agree, james was one of the first epistles written, before Paul.

That last bit of info didn't help EG. Lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, and again in the tribulation.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Not just vain words but truth. For James' audience, the truth is the Lord's coming is near.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


Again, the Lord is standing ready to return.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

If you're a Jew in the tribulation, look to Job for patience through suffering. Job's 42 chapters pictures the 42 months of tribulation for the Jew. For those who endure to the end(Matthew 24:13), their ending will be far greater than their beginning.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Is this doctrine for the body of Christ today? Really?

Yeah, actually it is..It is nearer today than it was in james day, he could return at any time, thats why he said such things,

 

[Magenta]

 

[ruach]

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.. it was over Mark...Don't know why but I always thought when I read verse 39 that they all were arguing... So I'm sorry about that...I guess I just read too much into that one...so thanks for the correction.

It was not a correction, just an adjustment.

 

[mailmandan]

Looks like I have some catching up to do with only 13,049 posts.