Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,141
3,010
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i mean honestly

i remember what helped me when i used to believe a false gospel of works salvation

was God using many brothers and sisters to break it from me paired with much prayers and laying down what i thought i knew at Gods feet and returning to study

not all of you guys were harsh with me

even if i was rude and accusing

some were harsh

and some were gentle
i needed all of it
(thank you guys)

i guess i just... wanna try to start fresh with ben

im not saying i believe i said anything that wasnt true

or wasnt from a good place of wanting to help by exposing the truth

im just saying sorry if anything i said was out of line

i know im capable of stepping outside the box of talking to someone into the box of talking AT them....
You have nothing to reproach yourself about.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,009
2,879
113
What proof can I give you except to let you know that I was baptized of the HS and I was baptized by full immersion in water. And I would add that as a new person in Christ, I am inclined towards good works for the love and glory of Jesus and God.

Tell me what other proof you need?
Neither one are of the first two are Proof. AND those are the one's YOU want to lean on.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,141
3,010
113
Can you rightly say that a clinger on who is fed by Jesus, and healed by Jesus, and saw the wonderful things He did, but do not abide in Him are the same kind of branch that is referred by Jesus in the parable as "branches IN HIM"? I do not, but that is just my interpretation.
Here is the scripture again:
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I agree with what others have said that circumstances may be that one is unable to produce much fruit, and God will be the judge, and he will be merciful.
So in affect they were never true believers to begin with.
Is that what you are saying?

Can I ask you whether you believe forgiving is bearing fruit?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,141
3,010
113
Can you rightly say that a clinger on who is fed by Jesus, and healed by Jesus, and saw the wonderful things He did, but do not abide in Him are the same kind of branch that is referred by Jesus in the parable as "branches IN HIM"? I do not, but that is just my interpretation.
Here is the scripture again:
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I agree with what others have said that circumstances may be that one is unable to produce much fruit, and God will be the judge, and he will be merciful.

Yes, Jesus did say, if you believe in me, you will have eternal life. But he was not kidding around about 'if you believe'. In his parable of the vine, he states an astounding doctrine. He says that "those braches IN ME (which are those who are saved) that produce little fruit (as a result of little or no good works) will be taken away by God, the Father of Jesus.
If SE was a real deal the saved would not have to worry about bringing in the fruit, and would not be worried about being taken away.
So Jesus, in this parable says there is no SE.
Ben I can't figure out whether you contradict yourself above or not.
I have bolded what confuses me.

You agree that it is possible not to produce much fruit, then you say that those who produce little fruit are taken away I.e cut off.

So can you quantify and qualify the amount of fruit/works that are required to be saved?
 
J

joefizz

Guest
I specifically asked TT to answer the analysis of the parable of the vine.

Other people have tried to answer, but not TT. Therefore, I keep asking him. Not you. But if you would like to take a shot, do your best.

TT is the one that called me the deceiver and liar, and so I would like him to put his analysis where his mouth is.
Well the trouble is that you are asking people to do "their best" when "God's wisdom" is "best".
We can only answer "so much" without the Holy spirit revealing to us wisdom in God's word we would be forced to rely on "our best" and "our best" is far from perfect I just as well as you or anyone else can give it our best shot but when it comes to "unquestionable truth" only God's wisdom will suffice.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,361
15,164
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If you are comparing my embellishment to the embellishment of satan in the garden, then you are implying that I am satan also. So for you to deny that, you too are false and deceptive. I will not call you a liar as you call me.

I may embellish what you say and what you think. You do the same to me, so you can come off your high and mighty horse and get a little humility. When you say that I love my wonderful works that will certainly earn me eternal life, you are telling a falsehood. You know it, I know it. I have never said those kinds of words, ever. My good works are always for the love and glory of Jesus and God. No other reason. It is because I am a new person in Jesus and I am now inclined towards doing good works. I know that seems strange to you, but it is biblical, and you should share my inclinations too.
You must be losing your mind pal....I have never said the bolded....and to embellish something I said to make it say something I have never said or implied is exactly like Satan in the garden....so.....if you cannot see that....well never mind....it does no good to address you....a bat lacking echo location can see better.....
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,141
3,010
113
If you are comparing my embellishment to the embellishment of satan in the garden, then you are implying that I am satan also. So for you to deny that, you too are false and deceptive. I will not call you a liar as you call me.

I may embellish what you say and what you think. You do the same to me, so you can come off your high and mighty horse and get a little humility. When you say that I love my wonderful works that will certainly earn me eternal life, you are telling a falsehood. You know it, I know it. I have never said those kinds of words, ever. My good works are always for the love and glory of Jesus and God. No other reason. It is because I am a new person in Jesus and I am now inclined towards doing good works. I know that seems strange to you, but it is biblical, and you should share my inclinations too.
What I find interesting is that you say that your works are always for the love and glory of Jesus and no other reason.

I can't refute that because that is the truth and yes we are then inclined to doing good works as a result of love for Jesus.

But as you have said earlier our salvation is based on focusing on the cross, effectively based on what Jesus had done, but then you added "If we keep his commandments"

So now the focus is off the cross and is now on works.

For what reason?
You say to be saved and or to be continued to be saved.
So now works replace faith, works therefore replace works of love for God with works to be saved or at least you do enough to be saved or to be loved.

Ben just so you know I am not against works, most on here are not as well.
We all agree that works will follow genuine saving faith.
People will grow and bear fruit at different rates.

But we are saved by faith alone.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
What I find interesting is that you say that your works are always for the love and glory of Jesus and no other reason.

I can't refute that because that is the truth and yes we are then inclined to doing good works as a result of love for Jesus.

But as you have said earlier our salvation is based on focusing on the cross, effectively based on what Jesus had done, but then you added "If we keep his commandments"

So now the focus is off the cross and is now on works.

For what reason?
You say to be saved and or to be continued to be saved.
So now works replace faith, works therefore replace works of love for God with works to be saved or at least you do enough to be saved or to be loved.

Ben just so you know I am not against works, most on here are not as well.
We all agree that works will follow genuine saving faith.
People will grow and bear fruit at different rates.

But we are saved by faith alone.
I think this explains a lot...
(you know I can't be serious forever)
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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What I find interesting is that you say that your works are always for the love and glory of Jesus and no other reason.

I can't refute that because that is the truth and yes we are then inclined to doing good works as a result of love for Jesus.

But as you have said earlier our salvation is based on focusing on the cross, effectively based on what Jesus had done, but then you added "If we keep his commandments", ("Double Talk")

So now the focus is off the cross and is now on works.

For what reason?
You say to be saved and or to be continued to be saved.
So now works replace faith, works therefore replace works of love for God with works to be saved or at least you do enough to be saved or to be loved.

Ben just so you know I am not against works, most on here are not as well.
We all agree that works will follow genuine saving faith.
People will grow and bear fruit at different rates.

"But we are saved by faith alone."
Amen and thank you BillG, I call what benhur say's is "double talk" or being "double minded." The reason I call benhurs gospel a counterfeit gospel is because it sounds similar to the truth but it is not. The true gospel shines brighter and is purer than any other counterfeit gospel out there. But the real truth is; a counterfeit gospel equals a counterfeit Christ.

benhurs counterfeit gospel will lead you down a path of despair and hopelessness and without eternal security. And his shame is that some unfortunate person may begin to believe his deception, but I pray to God that nobody does. "We are saved by faith alone", and no "double talk."

God bless!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,361
15,164
113
amen truthtalk , and the same goes for Ralph !!!
Both gospels they peddle like street organ players in Bombay with dancing monkies are full of more holes than a noodle strainer.....and more dangerous to the eternal state of men than cyanide was to Herman Goering in Nuremberg in 1946.......
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Both gospels they peddle like street organ players in Bombay with dancing monkies are full of more holes than a noodle strainer.....and more dangerous to the eternal state of men than cyanide was to Herman Goering in Nuremberg in 1946.......
Hi decon, I put benhur on Ignore because his fake gospel is so perverse and deceitful that I found it better to leave him alone in the land of Ignore.

Is there any way we can bring the CC rules to bear on these teachers of false doctrine or do we just have to tolerate their abuse of scripture. I've highlighted part of the CC rules.

Quote: from CC rules.
There is nothing wrong with discussion that is vibrant or passionate. So please don't be turned off by that.

On the other hand, we will step in if we see any of these.....

1. Blatant personal attacks. (This means actually attacking someone. It doesn't mean when someone fails to believe something you believe.)
2. Blatant false teachings against the essentials of our faith. (We'll allow some users for a time to discuss issues that are against the faith, but if time passes and they keep it up, they will be dealt with.)
3.Perverse talk and swearing.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,361
15,164
113
Hi decon, I put benhur on Ignore because his fake gospel is so perverse and deceitful that I found it better to leave him alone in the land of Ignore.

Is there any way we can bring the CC rules to bear on these teachers of false doctrine or do we just have to tolerate their abuse of scripture. I've highlighted part of the CC rules.

Quote: from CC rules.
There is nothing wrong with discussion that is vibrant or passionate. So please don't be turned off by that.

On the other hand, we will step in if we see any of these.....

1. Blatant personal attacks. (This means actually attacking someone. It doesn't mean when someone fails to believe something you believe.)
2. Blatant false teachings against the essentials of our faith. (We'll allow some users for a time to discuss issues that are against the faith, but if time passes and they keep it up, they will be dealt with.)
3.Perverse talk and swearing.
I never really look at it like that.....I leave the bans and rules oversight to the mods....if he quotes me and adds to it or embellishes it I will light him up or voice my view about what he teaches just like above....just keep swinging and laying to truth bare bro...the rest will take care of itself....
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
53
48
It did not go over my head. I read what you said with interest.

You say that not 1 of the people Jesus spoke to were baptized in the HS. I do not see that that has anything to do with his reference to "branches IN HIM"? These "branches IN HIM" refer to people who are baptized and are one with him in the vine. These are the very saved. So it does not matter who Jesus was talking to, what matters is the people referred to in the parable. Again, Jesus referred to them as "branches IN HIM", (those who are saved)

You also say that "without that vital union with christ, there can be no life and no productivity". I agree with your statement. Those who are self-attached, who Jesus neither elected nor saved nor sustains are not what I would call, "branches IN JESUS".
Those "branches IN JESUS" are those that Jesus elected, saved, and is sustaining. However, for whatever reason, some of those
"branches IN HIM" are not responding to his sustainance, and are not producing fruit. Therefore God, the husbandman is cutting them off and taking them away. Remember these branches that are being taken away are those branches that are IN JESUS, not unbelievers NOT IN JESUS.

If that fact of the parable goes right over your head, then there is not a lot that I can do but point it out to you.

You tried hard to push the idea that those being taken away were those who were self attached, but that is not someone that is IN JESUS, that would be an imposter NOT IN JESUS. So I do not think your interpretation is good.
Here is the scripture again:
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
It did not go over my head. I read what you said with interest.

You say that not 1 of the people Jesus spoke to were baptized in the HS. I do not see that that has anything to do with his reference to "branches IN HIM"? These "branches IN HIM" refer to people who are baptized and are one with him in the vine. These are the very saved. So it does not matter who Jesus was talking to, what matters is the people referred to in the parable. Again, Jesus referred to them as "branches IN HIM", (those who are saved)

You also say that "without that vital union with christ, there can be no life and no productivity". I agree with your statement. Those who are self-attached, who Jesus neither elected nor saved nor sustains are not what I would call, "branches IN JESUS".
Those "branches IN JESUS" are those that Jesus elected, saved, and is sustaining. However, for whatever reason, some of those
"branches IN HIM" are not responding to his sustainance, and are not producing fruit. Therefore God, the husbandman is cutting them off and taking them away. Remember these branches that are being taken away are those branches that are IN JESUS, not unbelievers NOT IN JESUS.

If that fact of the parable goes right over your head, then there is not a lot that I can do but point it out to you.

You tried hard to push the idea that those being taken away were those who were self attached, but that is not someone that is IN JESUS, that would be an imposter NOT IN JESUS. So I do not think your interpretation is good.
Here is the scripture again:
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Luke 3:8-9 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Romans 11:17-24 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
I never really look at it like that.....I leave the bans and rules oversight to the mods....if he quotes me and adds to it or embellishes it I will light him up or voice my view about what he teaches just like above....just keep swinging and laying to truth bare bro...the rest will take care of itself....
I'm good with that, I reckon like you say, the Moderators have oversight of the whole forum, so we can trust their judgments, no problemo!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,361
15,164
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Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
whoa whoa whoa
are you using scripture to imply it is God we have to THANK for salvation

how dare you try to say mans works dont save men and try to give glory to Jesus Himself:rolleyes::sneaky::unsure:.....



seriously bro....

thank you for fighting the good fight

God did a great job preserving His word

and does a wonderful job using simple men to share it with the world

i appreciate you
(as well as my MANY other brothers and sisters here who stand against anything which is untrue or tries to rob God of His glory or make Him out to be someone He is not by changing His character)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
whoa whoa whoa
are you using scripture to imply it is God we have to THANK for salvation

how dare you try to say mans works dont save men and try to give glory to Jesus Himself:rolleyes::sneaky::unsure:.....



seriously bro....

thank you for fighting the good fight

God did a great job preserving His word

and does a wonderful job using simple men to share it with the world

i appreciate you
(as well as my MANY other brothers and sisters here who stand against anything which is untrue or tries to rob God of His glory or make Him out to be someone He is not by changing His character)

for the record my first statement was me being facetious

lol

i know we arent saved by our works of righteousness

but by grace

our faith is accounted as righteousness
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
Here is just one example of the implications of "irrevocable"

John 6:37
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.