Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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But Jesus was not abiding in them , They were not abiding in Jesus...That is why they are cut off , like Judas was , there are and always will be many Judas...

John MacArthur says this...All those characters play a part in Jesus' metaphor. The vine is Christ; the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true disciples of the church age. The fruitless branches represent Judas and all those who never were true disciples. ...

I hope this helps you...xox...
Thank you for your thoughts. I am still convinced that if you are a "branch IN JESUS", it means you are "saved" and according to this parable if you are fruitless, you will be taken away. Jesus even says that those that are producing fruit will be purged, so that they will produce more fruit. Do you know what the word "purged" means in regard to religious concepts?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Notice to this thread, benhur has gone to the land of Ignore. And why?, so that I can separate myself from all of his lies and deceptions. He is nothing more than a Modern day Pharisee, the blind leading the blind. It is not good to keep hearing day after day a twisted interpretation of the bible.

Romans16:17
"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them."
Notice to this thread, I am not going to respond to TT for a while because I feel I am causing his soul to be full of hate. Therefore if the focus of that hate is taken away, he may be able to settle his soul again.

To think that because I believe in doing good for the glory of the Lord and keeping his commandments is all lies and deceptions, and that makes me a Modern day Pharisee, and I am a blind person leading the blind, and that I twist and distort the interpretations of the bible, and that causes you to hate me, you really need to take an aspirin and not read or respond to me until you get your emotions in check.

So this will be my last post to TT for a while. Sorry TT that we can not discuss things without hate coming to the surface.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Firstly I apologise if I have been aggressive towards you.
That was not my intention, it's more against what we disagree on.

Was Judas a branch in the vine?
Judas was a branch, but he was not a branch IN JESUS.
Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah or the Lord. So he was not IN HIM. The parable refers to "branches that are IN HIM"
It is these branches that if fruitless will be taken away, and even branches IN HIM that do produce, they to will be purged to produce more fruit.

What does it mean to be "purged to produce more fruit"?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Neither one are of the first two are Proof. AND those are the one's YOU want to lean on.
Then tell me what proof you require? This is kind of new to me. Do you want me to confess something to you?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
The calling of God are irrecvocable. This is a true statement. But if a man or woman finally reject Gods calling and rail against Christ, Christ will not force them to live with him for eternity.

Or, do you think because God gave a gift and a calling of eternal life, that he will force the beligerent one to live with him forever?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
The calling of God are irrecvocable. This is a true statement. But if a man or woman finally reject Gods calling and rail against Christ, Christ will not force them to live with him for eternity.

Or, do you think because God gave a gift and a calling of eternal life, that he will force the beligerent one to live with him forever?
are you suggesting Gods children do not want to be with Him and would rather burn in the lake of fire?

thats pretty silly


those who COME to Him He will in NO WISE cast out



obviously if someone doesnt want to come with Him they didnt know Him to begin with

and He didnt know them

He calls
His sheep hear His voice
and our spirit cries out to Him as our Father

obviously He wont force some pretender - unbeliever to be with Him


but His children will all be there with Him

every single one of them

He will lose nothing

just as He said
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,985
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Judas was a branch, but he was not a branch IN JESUS.
Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah or the Lord. So he was not IN HIM. The parable refers to "branches that are IN HIM"
It is these branches that if fruitless will be taken away, and even branches IN HIM that do produce, they to will be purged to produce more fruit.

What does it mean to be "purged to produce more fruit"?
It means to be pruned

Refiners fire
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,314
15,069
113
The calling of God are irrecvocable. This is a true statement. But if a man or woman finally reject Gods calling and rail against Christ, Christ will not force them to live with him for eternity.

Or, do you think because God gave a gift and a calling of eternal life, that he will force the beligerent one to live with him forever?
What I think is that you are too dense to understand the plain concepts found in scripture......like the following......that is what I think...

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,314
15,069
113
are you suggesting Gods children do not want to be with Him and would rather burn in the lake of fire?

thats pretty silly


those who COME to Him He will in NO WISE cast out



obviously if someone doesnt want to come with Him they didnt know Him to begin with

and He didnt know them

He calls
His sheep hear His voice
and our spirit cries out to Him as our Father

obviously He wont force some pretender - unbeliever to be with Him


but His children will all be there with Him

every single one of them

He will lose nothing

just as He said
There have been about 10 or 15 people I have dealt with on here over the last 4.5 years or so that absolutely have no concept of scripture, what it teaches, the definition of the words given etc.......Salvation is a free gift and the gifts of God are irrevocable.....how difficult is it to understand the security found within those two statements..........unbelievable....
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
106
28
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I got through most of this discussion before realizing two things. It's best to stick with what the bible says, which you share simply enough here and correctly. While the second realization is, this discussion does provide one great service I think. It demonstrates live time the biblical teaching known as the parable of the sower.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
I got through most of this discussion before realizing two things. It's best to stick with what the bible says, which you share simply enough here and correctly. While the second realization is, this discussion does provide one great service I think. It demonstrates live time the biblical teaching known as the parable of the sower.
i agree
God has used this thread to help many grow in different ways (including myself)

i did a break down of that parable

but many here reject it


---------
vvvvvv


mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

(called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth)

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

(again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith)
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


(no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him)

(like the reprobate)

(never born again)

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

^^
(theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God)

___________
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him)

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

(we are those who no doubt continue in the faith)
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
(not those who fall away into unbelief)
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
are you suggesting Gods children do not want to be with Him and would rather burn in the lake of fire?

thats pretty silly


those who COME to Him He will in NO WISE cast out



obviously if someone doesnt want to come with Him they didnt know Him to begin with

and He didnt know them

He calls
His sheep hear His voice
and our spirit cries out to Him as our Father

obviously He wont force some pretender - unbeliever to be with Him


but His children will all be there with Him

every single one of them

He will lose nothing

just as He said
All of God's children have free agency. They have the right to reject God and they do. How many of your friends in the church have turned away from Christ and have not come back yet? They stop believing in a lake of fire and brimstone. That is one of the reasons they finally reject Christ in the first place. They start to reason, which is dangerous, that God could not be so monsterous as to put a person into a lake of fire and brimstone and leave them to suffer hideously and endlessly with no relief for ever and ever and ever. So when they reject that doctrine it is an slippery slope to reject Jesus himself.

So I am not suggesting that God's children would choose the comfort a power of God over a lake of fire and brimstone. I am suggesting they reject both. And therefore God will have to let them go or force them to live with him eternally.

Jesus will not cast them out, but they will cast themselves out. Jesus will have to reject them also, or force them to live with him for eternity. He will not do that.

You can always cover yourself by saying, 'they were never saved, and Christ never knew them'. But I can guarantee that while they were in Christ, they knew they were saved and testified of the truth of that with conviction. I have lost many friends to satan, who were once confessors of Jesus and would have died for him at that moment of their life.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,985
113
2 Timothy 1:8-9

Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Jonah 2:9
9 But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed.
Salvation is of the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:10
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
i agree
God has used this thread to help many grow in different ways (including myself)

i did a break down of that parable

but many here reject it


---------
vvvvvv


mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

(called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth)

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

(again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith)
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


(no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him)

(like the reprobate)

(never born again)

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

^^
(theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God)

___________
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him)

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

(we are those who no doubt continue in the faith)
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
(not those who fall away into unbelief)
My interpretation is a little different. I believe that vs 5, 7, and 8 are all people who believed in Christ and were saved. Then things started to happen and some lost their belief in Jesus and lost their salvation. Some did not and grew to be great witness of Christ and brought forth much fruit for the KOG.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,985
113
All of God's children have free agency. They have the right to reject God and they do. How many of your friends in the church have turned away from Christ and have not come back yet? They stop believing in a lake of fire and brimstone. That is one of the reasons they finally reject Christ in the first place. They start to reason, which is dangerous, that God could not be so monsterous as to put a person into a lake of fire and brimstone and leave them to suffer hideously and endlessly with no relief for ever and ever and ever. So when they reject that doctrine it is an slippery slope to reject Jesus himself.

So I am not suggesting that God's children would choose the comfort a power of God over a lake of fire and brimstone. I am suggesting they reject both. And therefore God will have to let them go or force them to live with him eternally.

Jesus will not cast them out, but they will cast themselves out. Jesus will have to reject them also, or force them to live with him for eternity. He will not do that.

You can always cover yourself by saying, 'they were never saved, and Christ never knew them'. But I can guarantee that while they were in Christ, they knew they were saved and testified of the truth of that with conviction. I have lost many friends to satan, who were once confessors of Jesus and would have died for him at that moment of their life.
Was Judas ever saved?
You said above he was a banch but was not in Jesus.
If not in Jesus then not saved to begin with?

Maybe he is typical of those who claim good works on judgement day and Jesus said I never knew you.

After all I'm sure Judas would have done many great works when Jesus sent the disciples out
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,985
113
My interpretation is a little different. I believe that vs 5, 7, and 8 are all people who believed in Christ and were saved. Then things started to happen and some lost their belief in Jesus and lost their salvation. Some did not and grew to be great witness of Christ and brought forth much fruit for the KOG.[/QUOTE]

Sorry can you explain the bold above
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
My interpretation is a little different. I believe that vs 5, 7, and 8 are all people who believed in Christ and were saved. Then things started to happen and some lost their belief in Jesus and lost their salvation. Some did not and grew to be great witness of Christ and brought forth much fruit for the KOG.

impossible

thats like saying belief is a choice

and it ignores not only the new heart and quickened spirit which all who are born again recieve

but it ignores many promises of God

how He will not lose even one of His

how we are kept by the power of God

sealed

it also ignores how those who go out from us were never of us

and it ignores how we are not of them that fall back into unbelief as well as many other biblical truths ben


there cannot be two ways to see this

one is right and aligns with the whole bible

the others will produce confusion <- the need to ignore verses that go against the message of other verses
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,117
2,985
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John 6:35-40
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:47
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:29
29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,314
15,069
113
Was Judas ever saved?
You said above he was a banch but was not in Jesus.
If not in Jesus then not saved to begin with?

Maybe he is typical of those who claim good works on judgement day and Jesus said I never knew you.

After all I'm sure Judas would have done many great works when Jesus sent the disciples out
Judas was never saved and or in Christ....he was a thief holding the bag, a devil from the beginning and the Son of Perdition.....those three truths alone proves that he was never saved.....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,314
15,069
113
impossible

thats like saying belief is a choice

and it ignores not only the new heart and quickened spirit which all who are born again recieve

but it ignores many promises of God

how He will not lose even one of His

how we are kept by the power of God

sealed

it also ignores how those who go out from us were never of us

and it ignores how we are not of them that fall back into unbelief as well as many other biblical truths ben


there cannot be two ways to see this

one is right and aligns with the whole bible

the others will produce confusion <- the need to ignore verses that go against the message of other verses
My view....one who has believed into a false gospel that allows for the loss of salvation did not trust into the Jesus of the bible by faith....the King Jimmy and most translations do not bring across the definite article tied to "THE" JESUS of the bible.....