Not By Works

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,282
15,023
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I got through most of this discussion before realizing two things. It's best to stick with what the bible says, which you share simply enough here and correctly. While the second realization is, this discussion does provide one great service I think. It demonstrates live time the biblical teaching known as the parable of the sower.
AMEN bro....the simplicity found in Christ is exactly that...SO SIMPLE most miss it or have to embellish it beyond what they bible gives as truth....
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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What I think is that you are too dense to understand the plain concepts found in scripture......like the following......that is what I think...

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.

ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: not to be repented of
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

  1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
    "an irrevocable step"
    synonyms:irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
    peremptory
    "an irrevocable commitment"



The implication is clear.......!!
Apparently you have never been associated with someone that went from being a good Christian man to being a satanic worshiper. Am I right?

Of course you will immediately respond that this man was never saved and Jesus did not know him. I know how you think. But Jesus did know him, he was a "branch in Jesus", but had to be taken away by God for rebellion.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Apparently you have never been associated with someone that went from being a good Christian man to being a satanic worshiper. Am I right?

Of course you will immediately respond that this man was never saved and Jesus did not know him. I know how you think. But Jesus did know him, he was a "branch in Jesus", but had to be taken away by God for rebellion.
you can call God a liar and this man honest if you want

but God will not lose even one of His regardless of your many false assumptions
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,282
15,023
113
Apparently you have never been associated with someone that went from being a good Christian man to being a satanic worshiper. Am I right?

Of course you will immediately respond that this man was never saved and Jesus did not know him. I know how you think. But Jesus did know him, he was a "branch in Jesus", but had to be taken away by God for rebellion.
Again you prove that you have no idea of what you speak....you continue to prove that you do not understand words and or are not HONEST with words....oh wait....we already know your not honest.....

Does this describe a branch in Christ-->A DEVIL from the beginning
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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To BillG:

I was saying that some do not lose their faith and then lose their salvation, but go on to be great witnesses of Jesus Christ, and bring much fruit into the KOG.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,115
2,981
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Judas was never saved and or in Christ....he was a thief holding the bag, a devil from the beginning and the Son of Perdition.....those three truths alone proves that he was never saved.....
As posed by benhur

Judas was a branch, but he was not a branch IN JESUS.
Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah or the Lord. So he was not IN HIM. The parable refers to "branches that are IN HIM"
It is these branches that if fruitless will be taken away, and even branches IN HIM that do produce, they to will be purged to produce more fruit.

What does it mean to be "purged to produce more fruit"?
So he agrees that Judas was never saved as he was not in him, did not believe Jesus was the Messaiah.

Therefore by inference never saved to begin with.

However a genuine beliver can be cut off just like Judas.
But he will not agree that they were never genuine belivers to begin with.

Why?

To be honest he confuses me.

This is not me by holding a beef, but he believes and told me that if I died the first day after being sexually abused without forgiving the abuser I'm going to hell.
After all Jesus died on the cross for my abuser (which I do not deny, which I was on his death bed praying for him).

Then in one post he acknowledges that if we do not forgive before we die we can forgive it's ok.

Then we have if we do not do enough good works because of circumstances then it's ok, God understands that.

Then if we do not have works or only have little or few works then we are condemned.

Asked for quantification and qualifications but no response that I can see.

That's because there is no answer to that.

Then we have we are saved by focusing on the cross and are saved, to which he adds "If we do good works and bear fruit"

Then we have we are saved by grace but only if we have good works.

It's like a squirrel on speed a monkey on caffeine.

All over the shop.

It's like walking on eggshells.
Waiting for the sky to fall on our heads.

The only assurance is works and not faith.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,282
15,023
113
As posed by benhur



So he agrees that Judas was never saved as he was not in him, did not believe Jesus was the Messaiah.

Therefore by inference never saved to begin with.

However a genuine beliver can be cut off just like Judas.
But he will not agree that they were never genuine belivers to begin with.

Why?

To be honest he confuses me.

This is not me by holding a beef, but he believes and told me that if I died the first day after being sexually abused without forgiving the abuser I'm going to hell.
After all Jesus died on the cross for my abuser (which I do not deny, which I was on his death bed praying for him).

Then in one post he acknowledges that if we do not forgive before we die we can forgive it's ok.

Then we have if we do not do enough good works because of circumstances then it's ok, God understands that.

Then if we do not have works or only have little or few works then we are condemned.

Asked for quantification and qualifications but no response that I can see.

That's because there is no answer to that.

Then we have we are saved by focusing on the cross and are saved, to which he adds "If we do good works and bear fruit"

Then we have we are saved by grace but only if we have good works.

It's like a squirrel on speed a monkey on caffeine.

All over the shop.

It's like walking on eggshells.
Waiting for the sky to fall on our heads.

The only assurance is works and not faith.
I do not believe a word that comes out of his mouth....and a believer will never be FORSAKEN<<<I WILL never leave thee nor forsake thee is clear enough
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Again you prove that you have no idea of what you speak....you continue to prove that you do not understand words and or are not HONEST with words....oh wait....we already know your not honest.....

Does this describe a branch in Christ-->A DEVIL from the beginning
I truly wish that just one time we could have an honest discussion without telling me how horrible I am. See if you can do that when I respond nicely to you. Let's start a new tradition of discussing like adults. Thanks.

A devil from the beginning does not describe a "branch in Christ".
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
300
433
63
Its so sad that people dont understand the Gospel , and what Jesus has done for us !
just 1 sin will keep people out of heaven , so without the imputed righteousness of Christ given to us instantly when we put out FAITH in him for salvation , we would all be doomed
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
you can call God a liar and this man honest if you want

but God will not lose even one of His regardless of your many false assumptions
So what we are left with is God will force a man to live with him for eternity? Is that how it works?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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I do not believe a word that comes out of his mouth....and a believer will never be FORSAKEN<<<I WILL never leave thee nor forsake thee is clear enough
A believer will never be forsaken. But a believer turned unbeliever will be forsaken. So says the parable of the vine, and the sower, and the merciful king. All 3 are perfect examples of a believer that turned to unbeliever and lost their salvation.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
So what we are left with is God will force a man to live with him for eternity? Is that how it works?
are you suggesting Gods children do not want to be with Him and would rather burn in the lake of fire?

thats pretty silly


those who COME to Him He will in NO WISE cast out



obviously if someone doesnt want to come with Him they didnt know Him to begin with

and He didnt know them

He calls
His sheep hear His voice
and our spirit cries out to Him as our Father

obviously He wont force some pretender - unbeliever to be with Him


but His children will all be there with Him

every single one of them

He will lose nothing

just as He said



TLDR -> the new hearts God places in His children desire to be with Him
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
As posed by benhur



So he agrees that Judas was never saved as he was not in him, did not believe Jesus was the Messaiah.

Therefore by inference never saved to begin with.

However a genuine beliver can be cut off just like Judas.
But he will not agree that they were never genuine belivers to begin with.

Why?

To be honest he confuses me.

This is not me by holding a beef, but he believes and told me that if I died the first day after being sexually abused without forgiving the abuser I'm going to hell.
After all Jesus died on the cross for my abuser (which I do not deny, which I was on his death bed praying for him).

Then in one post he acknowledges that if we do not forgive before we die we can forgive it's ok.

Then we have if we do not do enough good works because of circumstances then it's ok, God understands that.

Then if we do not have works or only have little or few works then we are condemned.

Asked for quantification and qualifications but no response that I can see.

That's because there is no answer to that.

Then we have we are saved by focusing on the cross and are saved, to which he adds "If we do good works and bear fruit"

Then we have we are saved by grace but only if we have good works.

It's like a squirrel on speed a monkey on caffeine.

All over the shop.

It's like walking on eggshells.
Waiting for the sky to fall on our heads.

The only assurance is works and not faith.
I really cannot start to answer you BillG. Sorry to be so confusing.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
are you suggesting Gods children do not want to be with Him and would rather burn in the lake of fire?

thats pretty silly


those who COME to Him He will in NO WISE cast out



obviously if someone doesnt want to come with Him they didnt know Him to begin with

and He didnt know them

He calls
His sheep hear His voice
and our spirit cries out to Him as our Father

obviously He wont force some pretender - unbeliever to be with Him


but His children will all be there with Him

every single one of them

He will lose nothing

just as He said


TLDR -> the new hearts God places in His children desire to be with Him
OK, I hope you never turn, because I know you know you are saved. Right?
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,127
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OK, I hope you never turn, because I know you know you are saved. Right?
Is god going to fail him in some way he stops trusting god for salvation? I mean really, it would take God utterly failing to cause NNM to repent from his faith in god and return to trust self.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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impossible

thats like saying belief is a choice

and it ignores not only the new heart and quickened spirit which all who are born again recieve

but it ignores many promises of God

how He will not lose even one of His

how we are kept by the power of God

sealed

it also ignores how those who go out from us were never of us

and it ignores how we are not of them that fall back into unbelief as well as many other biblical truths ben


there cannot be two ways to see this

one is right and aligns with the whole bible

the others will produce confusion <- the need to ignore verses that go against the message of other verses
2 pieces of information that make me wonder how you think:
1) you say, "thats like saying belief is a choice". Were you serious or just being funny? Do you seriously believe that my belief is imputed into me and that I have no choice whether to believe in Jesus or not? If you were serious, then you believe that your belief was imputed into you, and that your faith was imputed into you, and your righteousness was not yours, but Jesus's righteousness was imputed into you, and all this imputed stuff allows God to let you live with Him for the eternities. Is this how you think of how a person gets eternal life?

2) you say, "the need to ignore verses that go against the message of other verses. Were you serious or just being funny? Is it OK for you to ignore a large swath of the bible? I guess so? But you have to know that is dangerous? Ignoring scriptures that do not fit your theology is not very wise either. Just saying.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
OK, I hope you never turn, because I know you know you are saved. Right?
someone earlier was asking some of us believers here

"why" we believe

this is my honest answer

Welp I had many doubts about God for many reasons growing up.... long story short I was agnostic ...

Then one of the many nights I was seeking truth (not Jesus but just truth in general... usually in history or science) I was hit with a spiritual brick (at least I called it this at the time)

I at that moment knew there is good
and there is evil
satan has had his hands in the way this world is headed and what people value

I knew at that moment I too was wicked and so where my desires

having never even read 1 page of the bible I had no idea God calls us
later I found out thats what this was


anyways
after this calling i HATED the fact i could have been wrong all this time

and I tried to disprove God to myself but I couldnt lie to myself

no matter how much I chose to do the things I then knew were evil..... it convicted me in a way it didn't before


and in my attempts to disprove God through science
and trying to find error in the bible
and make fun of pastors who would have even 1 fact incorrect

I became more and more soft to the truth
and hardened towards the lies my flesh wanted to be true


then I considered myself not a Christian
but a man who knew God to be true
and Jesus to be who He said He was


then I moved to a different state

and someone I knew happened to have an extra bible

instead of looking it up on the internet
I wanted one to hold for myself

so I asked him to give me one of his bibles

he agreed

and it already had my name on it..... it was the bible i recieved as a child over 15 years earlier that passed hands until it was returned to me....

I got goosebumps and this strange feeling all over me

from that point on
the more I walk with God

the stronger my faith grows

but even as just a droplet

the initial call was more than enough to keep me from believing anything else other than Him

I know He is who He says (the truth)
because His call
His work in me
His word

my faith is a product of being exposed to these

not how I know Hes true

oh
and now I am definitely a Christian man
and I also know I'm saved from the just punishment I deserve for the things I have done



__________
my faith comes from Him ultimately

as well as my assurance