Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
6,591
497
83
If a born again Christian who is saved by grace through faith, and loves people for years, then discovers her husband has been having an affair behind her back, then becomes bitter and divorces him and becomes a lesbian who hates men, and dies in that condition...

Is that person still saved or lost?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JPT



Did you sit up all night trying to think of a question, to try to trip me up?
Or are you telling me, as a personal confession?


THE ANSWER IS YES! BUT THERE IS STILL HOPE!

For these reasons:

1 John 2:19-21 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.
21 I have not written to you because you don’t know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth.

2 Corinthians 2:10-11 (ESV)
10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Matthew 6:14-15 (HCSB)
14 “For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.
15 But if you don’t forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.

Ephesians 4:31-32 (NCV)
31 Do not be bitter or angry or mad. Never shout angrily or say things to hurt others. Never do anything evil.
32 Be kind and loving to each other, and forgive each other just as God forgave you in Christ.


A Christian IS TO TAKE HIS/HER MARRIAGE VOWS as a VOW TO GOD HIMSELF. No, I would NEVER RECOMMEND DIVORCE, even for a CHRISTIAN that is married to a non-Christian.


Deuteronomy 23:21 (ESV)
21 “If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.


Now for your question about homosexuality, I BELIEVE THE BIBLE. GOD considers it an ABOMINATION, but every sin is equally BAD, James 2:10. Here is what HE SAYS ABOUT IT:


Leviticus 20:13 (ESV)
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Romans 1:25-32 (NASB)
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. {Is that not AIDES?}
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


It has ALWAYS BEEN SIN! Sin can be REPENTED OF, and their are many, many homosexuals that have repented, and returned to their GOD given roles. IT CAN BE REPENTED OF, the SAME as OTHER SINS!


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Psalm 32:5-6 (ESV)
5 I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found; . . .


 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
Thank you for walking in the spirit at ALL points. I do thank you. You are a good man for doing that. But you are only 1 of billions that believe that now that I am saved, I can fall (sin) and immediately Jesus forgives me and I am immediately reconciled to God again.

IOW a license to sin.

you believe you are saved by not sinning?:unsure:


its alllllll coming out now isnt it


anyways

you are welcome for my loving reproof

wanting the best for you i openly show that you believe in a false gospel

but thank God for my loving reproof to you

He provides the growth


now i know youre being sarcastic

but im not when i say i love you

im not ashamed to say it either


i want whats best for you

to the point of sacrifice

call me a liar

call me bitter or a bigot

call me a devil

i dont care

i will sacrifice my time
and effort

and continue to work for my Father whom i love

because He loved me first
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
Did you sit up all night trying to think of a question, to try to trip me up?
Or are you telling me, as a personal confession?


THE ANSWER IS YES! BUT THERE IS STILL HOPE!

For these reasons:

1 John 2:19-21 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.
21 I have not written to you because you don’t know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth.

2 Corinthians 2:10-11 (ESV)
10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Matthew 6:14-15 (HCSB)
14 “For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.
15 But if you don’t forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.

Ephesians 4:31-32 (NCV)
31 Do not be bitter or angry or mad. Never shout angrily or say things to hurt others. Never do anything evil.
32 Be kind and loving to each other, and forgive each other just as God forgave you in Christ.


A Christian IS TO TAKE HIS/HER MARRIAGE VOWS as a VOW TO GOD HIMSELF. No, I would NEVER RECOMMEND DIVORCE, even for a CHRISTIAN that is married to a non-Christian.


Deuteronomy 23:21 (ESV)
21 “If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.


Now for your question about homosexuality, I BELIEVE THE BIBLE. GOD considers it an ABOMINATION, but every sin is equally BAD, James 2:10. Here is what HE SAYS ABOUT IT:


Leviticus 20:13 (ESV)
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Romans 1:25-32 (NASB)
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. {Is that not AIDES?}
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


It has ALWAYS BEEN SIN! Sin can be REPENTED OF, and their are many, many homosexuals that have repented, and returned to their GOD given roles. IT CAN BE REPENTED OF, the SAME as OTHER SINS!


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Psalm 32:5-6 (ESV)
5 I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found; . . .


God bless you bro
 
Mar 14, 2011
53,052
1,471
113
Wow, it just seems to me that John 3:16 means nothing to you. Explain that to me.
I think it should be obvious to everyone mr Ben here wants to believe one can believe in god. But have zero faith in the work of the cross. And God will give them eternal life. Because according to Ben, John 3 says so. (Even though the rest of us know John 3 says no such thing.)
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,756
590
113
this is an amazing 'witness' for Yeshua and His precious Love when
true conviction and repentance become our new reality as opposed
to the worlds...

everyone should listen to this testimony, it's basic...
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,276
96
48
you believe you are saved by not sinning?:unsure:


its alllllll coming out now isnt it
No, you know that is not right. I believe that if you fall, you must repent and get back on track. Repentance is not a simple, 'Oh, I'm sorry
lol what are you even talking about?

conflating issues again perhaps?


all i hear is nonsense from you

but to answer your question

demons do not believe in Jesus

but they know of Him

just like the willingly ignorant
or the reprobate
or those who arent rooted in Him


eg
myself
dcon
TT
VCO

have explained to you

someone hearing and accepting

Jesus is real
Jesus died for our sin
you are saved by grace through faith in Him


doesnt = genuine belief
genuine faith in Him

how do we know this?

many verses come together to reveal this but here
Hebrews 11:1
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen


do you think turning from this acceptance you think is genuine faith is the substance of things hoped for?

no...

they prove they have no substance
have no faith

when they go on to accept something else as truth instead of Jesus

they become willingly ignorant and forsake their knowledge which to YOU would look like faith

but GOD is not decieved

and if someone does indeed believe
God sees this


this is followed by a new heart

this is followed by a spirit which cries out He is our Father


God working in us doesnt produce unbelief

it produces substance
The scriptures say that the demons do believe in God, they knew Him and lived with him. They know Jesus is the Savior, but they reject his saving atonement. So belief in Jesus is not enough, you must have faith in Jesus, and James tells us our faith is dead, or worthless if it is not accompanied by good works. It all makes sense. But now that we have got past the idea that belief is not enough, what about John 3:16?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
this is an amazing 'witness' for Yeshua and His precious Love when
true conviction and repentance become our new reality as opposed
to the worlds...

everyone should listen to this testimony, it's basic...

true repentance is how we know He has made us new

3340. metanoeó
Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose​
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.


from an unbeliever to a believer

from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh

from the love of fleshly pleasures to the love of our Father in heaven and the hate of fleshly desires​



conviction is usually His chastening

Strong's Concordance
elegchó: to expose, convict, reprove
Original Word: ἐλέγχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: elegchó
Phonetic Spelling: (el-eng'-kho)
Short Definition: I rebuke, expose
Definition: (a) I reprove, rebuke, discipline, (b) I expose, show to be guilty.



what the old man used to find good
He is now shown is evil

and God chastens ALL of His own when they are guilty of acting according to the flesh as opposed to the spirit


Hebrews 12:6-11
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.



(sorry i wasnt sure which testimony you spoke of... but i know many who push a false gospel will pervert the meaning of words to further their attempt at passing lies as truth... figured id get it out of the way now before someone mistakes your words as sinless perfection - saved by your own righteousness and not His righteousness)
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
It is certainly not based on 1 verse and you know it, so what does that make you?
i know your false gospel is based on your own false understanding

i dont know how many verses you take out of context to patch it together

i just know you do not teach what Jesus taught
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
what about John 3:16?
its entirely true so long as someone doesnt pervert the context and try to make it mean something it doesnt


well it in itself is true either way lol

the only untruths when using scripture come from men or the devil

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,276
96
48
you believe you are saved by not sinning?:unsure:


its alllllll coming out now isnt it


anyways

you are welcome for my loving reproof

wanting the best for you i openly show that you believe in a false gospel

but thank God for my loving reproof to you

He provides the growth


now i know youre being sarcastic

but im not when i say i love you

im not ashamed to say it either


i want whats best for you

to the point of sacrifice

call me a liar

call me bitter or a bigot

call me a devil

i dont care

i will sacrifice my time
and effort

and continue to work for my Father whom i love

because He loved me first
You know that I do not believe I am save by not sinning. What does that make you?

I have told you many times that I do sin. but when I sin, I do repent, and I try to get back on the path to salvation. Repentance is not a willy-nilly change of mind for the day. It is an earnest endeavor to stop doing what sin I did, and make amends for the harm I have caused due to that sin, and to do all in my power to not do it again.

As I grow older, my repentant process is far and in between those good days, when I do that which God tells me to do, so there is hope that through my faith in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice and his grace that I will be allowed into EL. To me belief and baptism is just the beginning, not the end of my EL.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,276
96
48
i know your false gospel is based on your own false understanding

i dont know how many verses you take out of context to patch it together

i just know you do not teach what Jesus taught
Everything I teach comes straight out of the bible and what Jesus taught. So saying I do not teach what Jesus taught must mean that the bible is false too. Is that what you think?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
You know that I do not believe I am save by not sinning. What does that make you?

I have told you many times that I do sin. but when I sin, I do repent, and I try to get back on the path to salvation. Repentance is not a willy-nilly change of mind for the day. It is an earnest endeavor to stop doing what sin I did, and make amends for the harm I have caused due to that sin, and to do all in my power to not do it again.

As I grow older, my repentant process is far and in between those good days, when I do that which God tells me to do, so there is hope that through my faith in Jesus and his atoning sacrifice and his grace that I will be allowed into EL. To me belief and baptism is just the beginning, not the end of my EL.
based on how you twist the gospel and your own words

i believe that you believe men are saved by the works of men
and
keep their salvation by their works


i believe to you Jesus is just a prerequisite for salvation


"ok now i believe in Jesus.... in order to keep my salvation so God doesnt cast me out even though He said He wouldnt i must remember to keep believing (as if it is a choice not indwelling characteristic) i must get water baptized and i must either not sin at all or regain salvation every time i do sin"


based on how you spell out your beliefs on what scripture is saying

this is what i think you believe

i dont KNOW your beliefs

i only know what you tell me

and this would be my honest summary of how i believe you see the "gift" of salvation is "earned"
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
Everything I teach comes straight out of the bible and what Jesus taught. So saying I do not teach what Jesus taught must mean that the bible is false too. Is that what you think?
you teach your own false understanding which holds no truth in it


you are very much like a pharisee who is saying "ohhh i teach using the torah if you dont agree with me you dont agree with God"

when in reality you are walking in darkness
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,334
806
113
You do not get away with that. A believer is one that believes in Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross and saved us from our sins. That is what a true believer believes. You are grasping at straws.

Is John 3:16 still valid then?
Sorry Ben but I have to interject here and say that I do not agree with you.

A true believer

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:3-5
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:12-16
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

Acts 2:22-24
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Your quote does not mention or say anything about a physical resurrection which one must believe in and accept.

If we believe he died on the cross for our sins and that's it then there is no salvation.

If you leave it at what you said then there is the possibility that such a statement can lead to 'sin all you want because it's paid for'

Which of course we know is not true and Paul had to address that in Romans 5-6.

Maybe you have assumed that resurrection aspect is a no brainer when talking to belivers, but not all so called belivers believe the Son of God manifest in the flesh, died on the cross and physically rose again.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,276
96
48
its entirely true so long as someone doesnt pervert the context and try to make it mean something it doesnt


well it in itself is true either way lol

the only untruths when using scripture come from men or the devil

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
How would one pervert the context in John 3:16, it is straight forward. It is simple enough for a 5 year old to understand. Exept that VCO (Post 64956) says that you are saved by faith and grace, he does not say believe?
EG (Posts 64946 and 64924) is even more emphatic that we are not saved when we believe.

So how do you think these 2 have preverted the context of John 3:16?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
How would one pervert the context in John 3:16, it is straight forward. It is simple enough for a 5 year old to understand. Exept that VCO (Post 64956) says that you are saved by faith and grace, he does not say believe?
EG (Posts 64946 and 64924) is even more emphatic that we are not saved when we believe.

So how do you think these 2 have preverted the context of John 3:16?

so if someone believes
has been baptized by the Holy spirit

but not baptized in water

and this someone sins

but still believes

if this someone dies

in the middle of performing a sinful deed

anything from a white lie
to murder

doesnt matter

if they die performing this deed while believing IN Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior
born again
baptized of the Holy spirit but not yet in water


is this person saved in your belief
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,756
590
113
we never feel the need to 'defend' Christ or what The Holy Spirit has been teaching us
through-out so many years, we just share when we are asked to and do not take offence
for where others are in their quest for wisdom and understanding...if they express their Love
for Christ, then this is always welcoming to hear, no matter where they are in their desire to learn
about our Saviour...

if the heart is right, Spiritual gifts will always follow-this is such a special 'gift of Truth'
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,912
954
113
we never feel the need to 'defend' Christ or what The Holy Spirit has been teaching us
through-out so many years, we just share when we are asked to and do not take offence
for where others are in their quest for wisdom and understanding...if they express their Love
for Christ, then this is always welcoming to hear, no matter where they are in their desire to learn
about our Saviour...

if the heart is right, Spiritual gifts will always follow-this is such a special 'gift of Truth'

this is beautiful...

amen

we may all have different callings

be at different points in our walk
have been given different gifts at different points of our walk

but so long as this walk is after the truth <- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

it is good to see our fellow brothers and sisters walking after Him in truth


i enjoyed this post

thank you