Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 14, 2011
55,080
2,940
113
How would one pervert the context in John 3:16, it is straight forward. It is simple enough for a 5 year old to understand. Exept that VCO (Post 64956) says that you are saved by faith and grace, he does not say believe?
EG (Posts 64946 and 64924) is even more emphatic that we are not saved when we believe.

So how do you think these 2 have preverted the context of John 3:16?
Again, this person must think that a person does not have to have faith in God to be saved and given eternal life. Or else he would not keep making such comments.

You do not say you faith someone, You say you believe someone. For the word to say whoever faiths in him will never perish but have eternal life does not fit. So you use a form of the word (belief) but it is not just mere belief.

I know that is hard for you to comprehend, because you are not truing to interpret the word. Your trying to force the word to fit your belief system.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,365
314
83
"If you believe in eternal security you believe you can sin all you want"

Yes that is called a license to sin.


Paul taught just the opposite, that we can walk according to the Spirit, so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


Born again Christians who live according to the flesh, practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21



OSAS = Doctrine of Demons


JPT
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Sorry Ben but I have to interject here and say that I do not agree with you.

A true believer

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:3-5
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:12-16
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

Acts 2:22-24
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Your quote does not mention or say anything about a physical resurrection which one must believe in and accept.

If we believe he died on the cross for our sins and that's it then there is no salvation.

If you leave it at what you said then there is the possibility that such a statement can lead to 'sin all you want because it's paid for'

Which of course we know is not true and Paul had to address that in Romans 5-6.

Maybe you have assumed that resurrection aspect is a no brainer when talking to belivers, but not all so called belivers believe the Son of God manifest in the flesh, died on the cross and physically rose again.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected in a perfect form, as an example of what we will be like in the resurrection.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,732
1,239
113
Yes that is called a license to sin.


Paul taught just the opposite, that we can walk according to the Spirit, so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


Born again Christians who live according to the flesh, practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21



OSAS = Doctrine of Demons


JPT
I can't say that I have met many genuine belivers who believe in OSAS or ES use it as a license to sin.

In 30 years I have only met one.
A good friend of mine with whom I shared a house.

He was engaged to be married and was sleeping with his fiancée (both Christian)
They were not a sin all we want, because in other areas they were honourable.

There attitude concerning this was that they did not want to do it because they knew it was wrong but at times they fell.

That in a sense was not an issue because the truth is we will stumble and do so.

What peterbed me was that my friend felt and said "If we do fall then God will forgive us"

That horrified me.
Firstly it was like "Dont want to do it" yet they did not guard against it.
When they did there seemed to be no regrets (notice seemed to be, I had no idea what their hearts were telling them).

I think what got me was that even as a believer I committed sexual sin, slept with girls.

I truly hated it and guilt was so heavy.

I'm not making excuses but I was one messed up person, looking for love and acceptance.

I needed a lot of healing from past and an understanding of whom I was in Jesus.

I had no concept of my identity in Jesus.
That I was Significant, Accepted and secure in him.

Anyway as I said not all believe in OSAS or ES use it a license to sin.
And I have always said this to people that I have walked with.
Not one I can recall have ever walked in that way either.

To me that is genuine faith.

Truth is grace liberated us from sin, to not want to walk after the flesh, but if we do then grace covers it.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
814
502
93
Yes that is called a license to sin.


Paul taught just the opposite, that we can walk according to the Spirit, so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


Born again Christians who live according to the flesh, practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21



OSAS = Doctrine of Demons


JPT
If you are going to quote some one, (post #65123) have the honesty to quote his total post and not just part of it.
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
113
Yes that is called a license to sin.




OSAS = Doctrine of Demons


JPT
im not sure i ever saw an honest post from you:unsure:


no matter how many times people falsely accuse children of God who have assurance in His promises of "wanting sin" it doesnt make it true

one of the most common ridiculous arguments against Gods promise of eternal security to all who believe is

"If you believe in eternal security you believe you can sin all you want"

:rolleyes:


that completely ignores the new God given heart and quickened spirit... it is a very worldly way to think to suggest such a thing

a saved born again believer is now a new creature

an adopted son/daughter of God

when they act according to the flesh that doesnt register "im doing what i want and getting away with it"

it registers as "failure"

and God chastens His own children

we want to walk according to the spirit and NOT the flesh at ALL points


but when we do sin
it is a failure

not "what we want"


thank you so much Jesus for being my advocate

i know i have no power to save myself
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
lol do you believe your own nonsense?

find one post where i say unbelievers are saved


no root

they were never in Christ

never born again
they accepted some knowledge
then instantly rejected the truth once something pops up


mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

(called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth)

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

(again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith)
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


(no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him)

(like the reprobate)

(never born again)

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

^^
(theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God)

___________
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


(and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him)

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

(we are those who no doubt continue in the faith)
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
(not those who fall away into unbelief)


heres a bump for context i posted the last time you misused that verse
Again, and again, you have to use Luke 8:12-13. If you don't use Luke then there is a slight reason to come to your conclusion, but that is arguable. If you use Luke there is not other conculsion but that ES is a false doctrine.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Lol well thanks for your OPINION, but. Would rather stick to facts,

If one does not come to faith, and have their faith ROOTED in christ, they are not saved, what you see in the parable is only one group who had their faith deeply rooted, the rest have no faith at all, just wishy washy believe, thats why their faith could not stand, because their true faith was in other things, not christ.

But hey, keep thinking god saves people who really never trusted him to begin with because he could not know. Keep humanising God, it just makes your argument weaker. And helps those who are honestly seeking truth to see where your root is grounded (not in christ)
When Luke says that they believed, I take that as what Luke means. They believed in Christ. But because they were rooted rather shallow, or they were not in Christ for very long, they gave it up when the persecution came upon them and denied the HS and Christ and became unbelievers. ES is not a true doctrine, you can fall from grace.
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
113
Again, and again, you have to use Luke 8:12-13. If you don't use Luke then there is a slight reason to come to your conclusion, but that is arguable. If you use Luke there is not other conculsion but that ES is a false doctrine.

what are you implying?

i have posted breakdowns of luke
matthew
revelation
james
john
1st john
romans
galatians
hebrews
1st corinthians and many more

not only in this thread but others as well

this isnt isolated either

this is paired with knowledge from the entire bible

OT and NT
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
814
502
93
When Luke says that they believed, I take that as what Luke means. They believed in Christ. But because they were rooted rather shallow, or they were not in Christ for very long, they gave it up when the persecution came upon them and denied the HS and Christ and became unbelievers. ES is not a true doctrine, you can fall from grace.
Luke never says they denied the Holy Spirit and Christ and became unbelievers.
That is adding to the Word.
Luke said they fell away.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Rev is talking about churches, not induviduals in those churches,

If the church in america does not repent, god will remove its lampstand, that does not mean there are no more saved people in america, or any local churches who do not stand for the living God,

To try to use rev and the 7 churches to support nosas is quite comical
You can laugh all you want, but when Jesus refers to the church at Ephesus, do you think he is talking about a building? No, he is talking about the people in the church of Ephesus, who have fallen. Be serious for once.

Just for the sake of argument, when Jesus refers to the 'church' at Ephesus, what do you think he is referring to if it is not the people in that church.
oh so you believe the candle sticks represent the 7 salvations?


makes no sense what so ever

your false gospel is easy to refute with the truth ben
Are you trying to be dense?

The 7 candlesticks represent the 7 churches that Jesus is referring to in Rev. 2-3. If the church (people) of Ephesus do not repent, Jesus will remove their candlestick from the 7. IOW they will cease to be a church. And this is what did happen. Are there any congregations in Ephesus today? Guess they did not repent, and lost their salvation.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Jps man centered doctrine of revolving door salvation to even those who have no genuine faith based according to their own will and what they do

where Gods promises are ignored
and His power belittled

where you ignore the work God does in His children and what it means to be born again

backed up with no scripture that he doesnt personally twist
There is lots of biblical examples of believers turning into nonbelievers. You just will not have anything to do with it because you are stuck on the reality of OSAS/ES. Unless you get out of that false doctrine, you will always use just those scriptures that have a tendancy to teach OSAS/ES. And those that don't, you twist to conform to those that do.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
what are you implying?

i have posted breakdowns of luke
matthew
revelation
james
john
1st john
romans
galatians
hebrews
1st corinthians and many more

not only in this thread but others as well

this isnt isolated either

this is paired with knowledge from the entire bible

OT and NT
I have never seen you break down Luke 8 and the parable of the sower.
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
113
You can laugh all you want, but when Jesus refers to the church at Ephesus, do you think he is talking about a building? No, he is talking about the people in the church of Ephesus, who have fallen. Be serious for once.

Just for the sake of argument, when Jesus refers to the 'church' at Ephesus, what do you think he is referring to if it is not the people in that church.

Are you trying to be dense?

The 7 candlesticks represent the 7 churches that Jesus is referring to in Rev. 2-3. If the church (people) of Ephesus do not repent, Jesus will remove their candlestick from the 7. IOW they will cease to be a church. And this is what did happen. Are there any congregations in Ephesus today? Guess they did not repent, and lost their salvation.

the error youre making is when you assume just because they lost their church

that they lost their salvation

but those of them that were saved before the church lost its place

were saved after the church lost its place

youre ignoring the context

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God


1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

out of one side of your mouth you say you believe

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


but then you deny this when you speak of your current understanding in regards to how you view scripture


you disagree with yourself
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,732
1,239
113
Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected in a perfect form, as an example of what we will be like in the resurrection.
That is true.

There was reason for my response to your post.

I have had the wonderful privilege of baptising people.
When baptising them, in the pool I always quote the passage from Romans.

When they ask me to be baptise them I ask them if they have done what the verses in Romans say.

Twice I had to say "Sorry I can't baptise you" the reason being is because they did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
That being the case I could not baptise them.

I walked with a guy for about a year (part of my ministry in church, discipleship)
He believed in Jesus as a person who died on the cross, came to teach us the way to live and show us God. mental health issues, tried to kill himself, when he was resucitated 3 times and woke up his words were "Why the f### f### have I woken up God I want to f###### die"

Long story short, he called me and asked if we could meet up.
We did, I let him talk.

He focused on the disconnect he had with God. Could not understand it.

I said to him "The disconnect is Jesus, you do not believe he rose from the dead"
He said "How can I connect with God"
I said "You can't, he connects with you"

I quoted the Romans verses.

He said I don't know how to pray.

I said prayer is not fancy words or bravado it's talking to God warts and all.
Then he fell on his knees, poured his heart out to God.
And he was totally honest (so honest it would make a sailor blush)

He cried, snot pouring from his nose.
I saw a broken honest man on his knees.

Then he said "Jesus I thank you that you died for me, that you love me and that you rose again for me and they I'm reconciled to God"

I'm sat there thinking WOW what's going on here.

Then he got off his knees stood up and I saw I totally different person.
It was like a weight was lifted and I saw it in his face.

He said "Bill I feel released, my body is tingling, I feel warmth I am connected to God, then he said THANK YOU JESUS MY SAVIOUR, THANK YOU GOD FOR THE DOCTORS WHO RESUSCITATED ME BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PURPOSE FOR ME"

I have had the privilege of leading only a few people to Jesus.
But for the rest of that day I was gobsmacked, I'm thinking what on earth has gone here.

A man for a whole year who refused to believe Jesus rose from the dead and within an hour came to believe it.

I had the privilege of baptising him a month later.

And boy is God using him.

I believe he was saved before he was baptised.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Now your playing God saying those people were saved.

How low will you sink before the lightbulb comes on.
You are the one playing God. When the bible says 'hold fast', it is telling believers to 'hold fast'. Your only argument is always that he is not referring to believers. He would surely not be telling non-believers to 'hold fast'? Does that make any sense.

How low will you sink before the lightbulf comes on. Answer the question: why would any of the apostles tell un-believers, or unsaved people to 'hold fast' to what they have and believe. Quite funny if you ask me.

The funny part is that you have twist the scirpture to the apostles talking to unbelievers in order to continue your ES illusion.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,732
1,239
113
There is no Christian doctrine called OSAS, that is a garbage argument fit for the trash, complete nonsense.
Ok I'm going to sound really stupid (not unusual for me)

What is the difference between OSAS and Eternal Security?

I don't see OSAS as an issue when it comes to ES.
I don't see OSAS as I can sin all I want.

What am I not getting