Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I have done that my friend(mangling the line in a reel, we call that making a bird’s nest). When one relies on their self to get to heaven, they make a mangled mess of their lives.


I had to read your quotes twice about RC Sproul, before I understood that what he was talking is when: You reduce GOD to only Love, Grace, and Mercy, without Sovereignty, without Justice, without Holiness, and without Wrath; you have created a man-made idol for yourself; and NOT the Reality of GOD. SO I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, and therefore the Easy Believism with their LOVE only god, worship a man made idol.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,966
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Hi posthuman,

Remember when this happened on that beautiful day of fishin; it was appropriately named a "Rats Nest" or backlash, which is what it is like to untwist Studyman's tangled mess of junk theology.

ah, yes.

remember how Alexander solved the Gordian knot?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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I have done that my friend(mangling the line in a reel, we call that making a bird’s nest). When one relies on their self to get to heaven, they make a mangled mess of their lives.
Hi Sackcloth-N-Ashes, nice to meet you and I do not believe we have had a conversation as yet but just want to say welcome and thank you for your reply. I believe the same as you when we rely on "self" our lives can become a tangled mess. I believe Jesus when He say's, "without Him we can do nothing."

God bless!

John15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Who are you to judge? Only God knows what is going on in a person's life.

Before Moses was called to lead the people out of Eygpt, he was known as a murderer and spent 40 years in the desert married to a daughter of a false priest to another good. He didn't even have his sons circumcised.

If you judged Moses at that point in his life, you and others who make themselves judges would have condemned him.

Yet God called him from the desert and made a murderer the savior and spokesperson to His people.

You see this happen again in the New testament with Saul later turned Paul.

Judging people by their fruits sounds righteous but it's nit God's way, it's the world's wisdom.
I certainly will not be judging whether a person is doing what the Lord wants them to do, there are billions of individual situations that are complex and for a normal man, impossible to adjudicate. So don't worry, I will not be the judge of anyone.

There is, however, a sign that generally can be seen by men who are putting their faith in Jesus to work, and helping to build his kingdom here on earth. These good works are to be done so that men may see these good works, and by doing this, the scriptures say we glorify our Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16) So let your light so shine, or IOW let your good works shine forth.

God will do the judging, as to who is faithful.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Paul wasn't writing about individual salvation but rather the body of Christ. Titus 3 begins with the following:

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Then you would be WRONG, if you believe that. HE CERTAINLY WAS WRITING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL SALVATION:


Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.


Titus 3:10 (HCSB)
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,


THAT'S ONE.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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ah, yes.
remember how Alexander solved the Gordian knot?
Thank you posthuman, and yes I did learn a lesson from Alexander for sure, even if I did have to look up the answer....:)

Quote
According to the ancient chronicler Arrian, the impetuous Alexander was instantly “seized with an ardent desire” to untie the Gordian knot. After wrestling with it for a time and finding no success, he stepped back from the mass of gnarled ropes and proclaimed, “It makes no difference how they are loosed.” He then drew his sword and sliced the knot in half with a single stroke.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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NO, only Born Again Christians are Saved.

YOUR THEOLOGY IS FLAWED.

In the Parable of the Gates, THERE ARE NOBODY MENTIONED THAT DOES NOT THINK HE IS A CHRISTIAN. But the MANY entered the Wrong Gate, on the WIDE EASY ROAD, which ONLY knows about Jesus, the same kind of Faith that Demons have. They were DECEIVED with False Doctrine and a False Gospel, into going through the WRONG GATE, and that Road Leads to Hades/HELL. WHY?

Because they only knew ABOUT HIM, and THEY DID NOT REALLY KNOW HIM INTIMATELY AND PERSONALLY!


Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day
many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,
‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


That is a Specific Reference to the BORN AGAIN relationship to JESUS CHRIST, when the Holy Spirit Births your dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, and HE WILL NEVER LEAVE US.


JUST LIKE THERE IS A RIGHT GATE AND A WRONG GATE; SO IS THERE A RIGHT SIDE OF THE FENCE AND A WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE.
Sorry, VCO, do you wake up every morning in a contentious mood.

Godsgrace101 says that we're all on the same side of the fence, and the unbelievers are on the other side of the fence.

And you respond by saying, NO, only born-again Christians are saved.
And then in ALL CAPS, you say, YOUR THEOLOGY IS FLAWED. (which means you are screaming at him).

You seriously need to take a deep breath and get off your high rocking horse of theological perfection, and give a poor Christian the good news without spitting in his face. I know you are intimately close to Jesus, so it seems to me there would be some love and mercy and proper instruction, instead of screaming and tantrum like behavior.

Read 1 Corinthians 13 many times, for a man without charity will not be in the KOG.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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The Pharisees rejected the God of the Bible as their father, and chose instead your father. Had they not rejected God, and lived like Zechariahs, they would have known the Messiah as Zechariahs knew Him.
John 8:39-41
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I find this fascinating. Abraham was told to leave everything he knew, his religion, his family, and follow the Word of God into a foreign land. And Abraham did as the Lord commanded, he left everything he knew because he trusted God. Abraham was told by this same God to take his only son and sacrifice him. And Abraham did, certainly in his mind. Abraham did all these things that was commanded of him and many more because he trusted God. That is a very important part of Abraham's story that you completely ignored.

No, instead you scour the scriptures to find a sin, any sin, and when you find one, you make sure everyone you know sees, not his faith, or faithfulness, Not his commitment to God, respect and faithfulness to God. Not the judgment God has already given you about Abraham. God forbid, no, you make sure all your brethren SEE your judgment of him, you make sure they SEE his Nakedness.

The same thing was done to Noah, and todays religions do to David as well, all the time. And why? Always to justify disobedience to God. I might remind you that Abraham wasn't the Friend of God because of his sin, rather because of his Faithfulness.

And God never mentioned this sin you declare, never called it is sin, never addressed it even once in the entire Bible as a sin. But you do. You should think about that.

With all this "Faith" that Abraham exhibited, would God refuse him of some Grace? I would think not. But religions which did not the "work of Abraham" didn't receive God's Grace. They sinned too? Why didn't Grace abound in them? What made Abraham different?

It seems that God didn't give Abraham His Grace because he told a lie about his wife. It seems God gave Abraham His Grace because Abraham trusted in Him enough to do what He said.

So I don't think the Story about Abraham was intended to promote or excuse disobedience to God, I think it is clear that the Story of Abraham was to show what happens when we Love God and Trust Him enough to do as He says. This is what true "Faith" is. This is why he was forgiven and God never laid those sins against him. If God didn't remember, remind us through out the Bible, point out his sins, then surely us mere mortals shouldn't judge Abraham as a liar.

I think God was just keeping His Eternal Promise to Abraham that He told Cain.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.

The story of Abraham wasn't about his sin, but about His obedience.
You are full of baloney.

I highlighted it not to justify sin but to show that grace was needed.

To show the difference between Islam and true Gospel message.

I am not surprised that you missed the point.

Yes David was a sinner, a murderer and an adulterer yet He is called a man after God's own heart.

I believe this wholeheartedly and it's an example of God's grace.

However Muslims and fake Christian Demand perfect obedience to the Law, ignoring God's grace and love even for sinners

FYI the story about Abraham is about God's grace and Abraham's faith in the loving and forgiving and faithfulness of God and His promises....not Abraham's obedience or self righteousness.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Also I don't have to "scour scripture" i happen to read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation at least once yearly since I was sixteen. Doesn't make me wiser than anyone else, but does allow my recall of what is actually in the Bible to be more natural than "scour" implies.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
What is the difference between Isaac and Ishmael? Jacob and Esau? Judah and his eleven brothers?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Galatians 3:16 ►
New International Version

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,162
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it's a lie to keep on falsely accusing me of saying either of these things, especially seeing that for a year you've known and been repeatedly told that I've said neither.

it's called slander.
what does the scripture say about willfully malicious liars, dude?
I would not waste my time.....his reasoning is ignorant to say it mildly.....and he dogma does not even make the almost true category..............a total waste of time.....serious....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Evolution is fine the problem is aethist scientist ignorantly trying to use bad science to refute the Bible and ignorant Christians (some who still think the earth is the center of the universe and the sun goes around it and the earth is flat) claiming that the Bible says things it doesn't.

I may not be the smartest person in the world but I believe in natural selection and true evolutionary theory. This coming from a Bible believing Christian who reads the Bible from Genesis to Revelation at least yearly and a former high school science teacher.
Just came upon this.

If evolution is correct, then how do you get God creating man into that idea?
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
there is a time scale problem nobody talks about. the pace of cellular evolution by random genetic mutation is waaaay slower than the speed at which environmental changes occur -- take for example wooly mammoth, it is presumed that animals 'adapted' to ice-age conditions and became thicker-skinned and furry and their blood changed to prevent clotting in cold environments.. and then again to adapt to warmer environs in inter-glacial periods, losing the fur, thinning the hide, changing the blood and the pores of skin etc. all by natural selection through random accumulation of individual beneficial mutations.

here's the issue: climate changes like ice ages seem to occur over periods of a few thousand years, maybe tens of thousands. random genetic mutations & natural selection takes place over millions & tens and hundreds of millions of years, a thousand times longer, 10,000 times longer than necessary for such adaption to 'keep up' with the pace of the changing environment. by the time a normal pachyderm population could have 'evolved' into a wooly, cold-ready version, 10 ice ages would have passed, 100 ice-ages, 1,000 ice-ages. ((accepting for sake of argument the time scales inferred from geology etc))

no way.
that paradigm requires creatures to already be slowly adapting to change 10 million years before such change begins to even happen.
these changes have to be already built-in in the dna otherwise no creature could ever randomly adapt in time to survive the pressure that selects the changes. the picture that makes sense is that the Creator has designed the creature to be ready for such climactic change and for such changes to be triggered across the whole population relatively simultaneously.


try floating this to the next person who tells you animals randomly evolve to adapt in some monte carlo method :)

or, give them example of birds, thought to be evolved from flightless lizards. random mutation is gradual process -- how do the first proto-birds with only barely little grotesque stubs of wings survive and learn to fly? the one-out-of-a-billion mutated lizard starts jumping off cliffs, still unable even to glide? and is super attractive to females because of its mutated, strange appearance and apparent suicidal behavior? such mutations aren't even beneficial until 10 million generations later. 99.99% of mutation is not beneficial, vast majority of mutations seen in nature affect reproduction making the creature unable to have children and pass on their deformity, and are definitely not more sexually attractive to 'normal' creatures. the whole process sounds clever, but is implausible & mathematically prohibitive without ever even going into the details of cellular changes.
very enlightening :)

I think God is telling us to not fear science. I can thank God for blessing posthuman with a scientific brain, and his ability to make it mathematically intuitive, and that God allowed my mathematical intuition to work when I read about 10, or 100, or 1000 ice ages. May we love God with all our minds as well.


by the way, does this also apply against the likelihood that a single celled organism can evolve into multi-celled organism?

I've heard of illustrations of fertilized egg, multiply, cells become different for different organs of the multi-celled organism

and I've heard of "algae" (or fungus) where single-celled can somehow become multi-celled.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
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At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. Luke 10:21


And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18:3-9


According to the verses above, little children can believe and they also can sin. They may grow and bear fruit, grow without fruit or they may not grow at all. Like soils where the seeds fell,as these little children grow, the seeds planted in them may be snatched out from them and some may fall away when troubles, persecutions, worries of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth chokes them.(matthew 13:1-23)

The enemy sowed bad seeds in the same FIELD with four kinds of soil and the Master allowed them to grow together.(matthew 13:24-30)

These little children are innocent until they HUMBLY accepted the WORD planted In them.

Two Kinds of Wisdom Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.James 3:13-16

“...clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” peter 5:5

One of the seeds sown by the enemy is DECEIT,. The bible warns us of His deception, even as far as the time of Adam & Eve, his deception was made manifest.

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

...but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.

“...You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman.
Genesis 3:3-4

Eve disobeyed God's command because she believed the seed of deception that the evil one has sown in her heart. Remember that God created man according to their image of righteousness and holiness, but still, they were deceived.

...As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 2:1-2

This is the reason why there are FALSE PROPHETS, PREACHERS AND TEACHERS.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

The bible said about these FALSE IMPOSTORS; "do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

True prophets, preachers and teachers are obedient to their calling to preach unto all nations the Gospel and to teach obedience to God.

You will know them by their fruit…

The bible says:

You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:22-24

What do we expect the deceiver would say about this?

While the bible speaks of obedience to God and the coming judgment and wrath of God, the deceiver will say…

YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE"

"ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED"

"YOU ALREADY "POSSESS" ETERNAL LIFE THE VERY MOMENT THAT YOU BELIEVE"

The book of Jude clearly speaks about them.

..Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. ephesians 5:6
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,162
17,517
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What do we expect the deceiver would say about this?

While the bible speaks of obedience to God and the coming judgment and wrath of God, the deceiver will say…

YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE"

"ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED"

"YOU ALREADY "POSSESS" ETERNAL LIFE THE VERY MOMENT THAT YOU BELIEVE"

The book of Jude clearly speaks about them.
5:6

All the drivel you post means nothing and I find it hilarious that the last book you quote to PROVE your working for, I keep myself saved blather is the book of JUDE which lists 3 false teachers that ALL false teachers are compared to.....

CAIN being first on the list....and he peddled works

Man you have a lot to UNLEARN and then a LOT to learn before you get anywhere near correct in your theology...