Not By Works
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Hi Posthuman...
Isn't this what you said in post no. 77945?
You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.
But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word.
I was referring to the comment you made above..."a bunch of laws".
Is this how you feel about the 10 commandments?
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but it sure sounds like I understood correctly.
The scriptures DO support that God did not abolish the Law...
Mathew 5:17
To fulfill means to fulfill prophecies...not to somehow fulfill the law so we are not required to, as many understand today. Language can be a problem...
Isn't this what you said in post no. 77945?
You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.
But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word.
I was referring to the comment you made above..."a bunch of laws".
Is this how you feel about the 10 commandments?
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but it sure sounds like I understood correctly.
The scriptures DO support that God did not abolish the Law...
Mathew 5:17
To fulfill means to fulfill prophecies...not to somehow fulfill the law so we are not required to, as many understand today. Language can be a problem...
I'd agree.
Except for that little word AGAIN...
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
Again means that something existed BEFORE, was LOST, and then existed AGAIN.
This is simple English -- I don't know why it has to be discussed.
Also, those who believe as you do have to make up your minds if a son is a son...
If he was a son...
Then he WAS SAVED.
JESUS said the son became LOST.....
And was come to life AGAIN.
Except for that little word AGAIN...
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
Again means that something existed BEFORE, was LOST, and then existed AGAIN.
This is simple English -- I don't know why it has to be discussed.
Also, those who believe as you do have to make up your minds if a son is a son...
If he was a son...
Then he WAS SAVED.
JESUS said the son became LOST.....
And was come to life AGAIN.
The Law and Prophets taught justification by Faith. Paul just furthered a teaching that was already there. He said so. He called it the Gospel of Christ where it is written therein "The just shall live by Faith". But if a person doesn't trust the Word of God which became Flesh enough to follow His instructions, as did Abraham, Noah and the rest of our examples of the "Faithful" then that is not faith. "Many" who come in Christ's name preach it is, but as James points out, dead faith isn't Faith. And Paul understood this perfectly.
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law. (Not the Works of the Law for justification of sins the Christ gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, "Till the Seed should come", Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet. This Law was "ADDED" 430 years later as Paul tells us in Galatians 3)
Abraham did more than just serve the Christ with his lips. We are to have his Faith.
Fran seems to understand this, while you don't. You would do well to pay attention to her understanding, which seems centered in scripture, not modern religious tradition.
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law. (Not the Works of the Law for justification of sins the Christ gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, "Till the Seed should come", Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet. This Law was "ADDED" 430 years later as Paul tells us in Galatians 3)
Abraham did more than just serve the Christ with his lips. We are to have his Faith.
Fran seems to understand this, while you don't. You would do well to pay attention to her understanding, which seems centered in scripture, not modern religious tradition.
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E
Paul said Faith apart from works
James said faith plus works
So we already have an appearant contradiction, if taken at face value
Yet we can look at context of both saying and the conflict disapears.
Paul,, Writing to people who claimed we had to work to maintain salvation, by adding all these works of the law. Said plainly. Even abraham was found by faith alone, if he was found by works, he would have something to boast about (because he saved himself) But what does scripture say, Abraham believed (had faith) and God accounted him as righteous
James, Speaking to licentious people who CLAIMED to have faith. But continued to live like the world. And did NOTHIN to show they were even remotely changed people of God. Said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS he has faith but HAS no works, Can that faith save him? No
A person who has TRUE faith will work (He agreed with paul. We are saved by faith alone, but those who are saved WILL WORK) So if YOU CLAIM you have faith, but do not show the works ALL saved people have, what is the problem?
Well james made it simple. Your faith is dead (non existent) if you have no faith. Your not saved, Either by pauls writting, James writings, Jesus writtings or any one elses. We are saved by a living faith, Not a dead one. And a living faith works. Not to maintain salvation. But because when you trust someone, You follow them. You only do not follow people you do not trust. You may believe in them, But you will not follow them (hence no works)
James said faith plus works
So we already have an appearant contradiction, if taken at face value
Yet we can look at context of both saying and the conflict disapears.
Paul,, Writing to people who claimed we had to work to maintain salvation, by adding all these works of the law. Said plainly. Even abraham was found by faith alone, if he was found by works, he would have something to boast about (because he saved himself) But what does scripture say, Abraham believed (had faith) and God accounted him as righteous
James, Speaking to licentious people who CLAIMED to have faith. But continued to live like the world. And did NOTHIN to show they were even remotely changed people of God. Said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS he has faith but HAS no works, Can that faith save him? No
A person who has TRUE faith will work (He agreed with paul. We are saved by faith alone, but those who are saved WILL WORK) So if YOU CLAIM you have faith, but do not show the works ALL saved people have, what is the problem?
Well james made it simple. Your faith is dead (non existent) if you have no faith. Your not saved, Either by pauls writting, James writings, Jesus writtings or any one elses. We are saved by a living faith, Not a dead one. And a living faith works. Not to maintain salvation. But because when you trust someone, You follow them. You only do not follow people you do not trust. You may believe in them, But you will not follow them (hence no works)
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only the first blue paragraph you put was originally something i said. this is the subject of the quote, which is from over a year ago in a different thread -
Colossians 2:20-23
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
studydude does not exactly have a reputation for honest or accurate representation of facts. in fact he has a reputation for deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.
Colossians 2:20-23
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
studydude does not exactly have a reputation for honest or accurate representation of facts. in fact he has a reputation for deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.
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Did I not reply to that post above?
Post 77,931.
Off out for another date with my wife.
The kids are at the church youth group doing a 'silent disco'
When I say kids the three at home are 19,17 & 16.
It's interesting, I thought it would get easier as the got older.
But as they have it presents a new dynamic.
I understand we all have feelings.
That's one of my weak points.
This will probably be my last post tonight.
I need to do my hair
Post 77,931.
Off out for another date with my wife.
The kids are at the church youth group doing a 'silent disco'
When I say kids the three at home are 19,17 & 16.
It's interesting, I thought it would get easier as the got older.
But as they have it presents a new dynamic.
I understand we all have feelings.
That's one of my weak points.
This will probably be my last post tonight.
I need to do my hair
At 74 and gone through 2 sets of adopted children I can testify that the older they get the bigger the problems!!
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John 3:16 AMPC states it well. The AMPC puts the extra meanings of the original language words in parentheses. Trusts in, clings to and relies on add depth to the words believe in. Not just a simple belief.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
did you miss the part where I said " the son would most likely will obey "
you guys should not apply critical theory to the Bible, or what others say.
( critical theory says, in a nutshell, that when person A says certain things, person B can glean meaning out of certain keywords, and tell what person A is saying, by using the keywords, so, as long as person A says the keywords, person B knows what they mean, not based on the entirety of what is said, but on the keywords.)
it is a silly practice that convinces people they can be mind readers .
see this at paly right here- I say the son was restored , and most likely will obey, and fran says that I said obedience is not required.
keyword " restored " . fran gleans that I think obedience is not required , based on the word " restored ".
you guys should not apply critical theory to the Bible, or what others say.
( critical theory says, in a nutshell, that when person A says certain things, person B can glean meaning out of certain keywords, and tell what person A is saying, by using the keywords, so, as long as person A says the keywords, person B knows what they mean, not based on the entirety of what is said, but on the keywords.)
it is a silly practice that convinces people they can be mind readers .
see this at paly right here- I say the son was restored , and most likely will obey, and fran says that I said obedience is not required.
keyword " restored " . fran gleans that I think obedience is not required , based on the word " restored ".
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But the Elephant in the room, the topic you never wish to discuss, that you deflect from, refuse to answer questions of, and completely ignore is the Solid, Biblical Fact that not everyone who says they have/will receive God's Grace, or Mercy has actually received it. Not EVERY ONE is granted His Grace, or His Mercy.
This is Biblical Fact.
Now the Preachers of Christ's time claimed God's Mercy, but Jesus said because they practiced Lawlessness they were rejected.
Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
They had created their own righteousness, and had rejected the Righteousness of God.
Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This seems a pretty important deal. Now this same Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a man, He was the Word of God which created all things. As this Christ He said:
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This would seem to confirm His teaching as a man and also explain why these people received His Grace and Mercy and knew the Christ when He came to them:
Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
But these people did not.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
You preach that if we are "Faithful" to God and Obey His Commandments as He instructed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that we will not receive Grace because we are trying to earn salvation by obeyed the Father and that somehow Jesus is opposed to that.
Yet, the Bible seems clear that the opposite is true. That only those who Trust God enough to let His Word's guide our footsteps are granted Mercy and Grace.
That those who reject His instructions are cursed, not those who "strive to live by them", as Abraham did and the Christ instructed.
2 ways? I don't think God's Grace, and being Faithful to God and His Word are 2 different ways at all. I think the scriptures teach that the Faithful (obedient children as Abraham and Zechariahs) are the ones that receive God's Grace. And that those who simply pay Him lip service while rejecting His Righteousness as defined by the Law and prophets do not.
Roman's 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4, Law and Prophets.)
Could it be that the reason Jesus came to "Preserve" the Law and Prophets, not destroy them, is because this is where God's Righteousness can be found so we can "submit" our self to them?
This is Biblical Fact.
Now the Preachers of Christ's time claimed God's Mercy, but Jesus said because they practiced Lawlessness they were rejected.
Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
They had created their own righteousness, and had rejected the Righteousness of God.
Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This seems a pretty important deal. Now this same Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a man, He was the Word of God which created all things. As this Christ He said:
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This would seem to confirm His teaching as a man and also explain why these people received His Grace and Mercy and knew the Christ when He came to them:
Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
But these people did not.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
You preach that if we are "Faithful" to God and Obey His Commandments as He instructed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that we will not receive Grace because we are trying to earn salvation by obeyed the Father and that somehow Jesus is opposed to that.
Yet, the Bible seems clear that the opposite is true. That only those who Trust God enough to let His Word's guide our footsteps are granted Mercy and Grace.
That those who reject His instructions are cursed, not those who "strive to live by them", as Abraham did and the Christ instructed.
2 ways? I don't think God's Grace, and being Faithful to God and His Word are 2 different ways at all. I think the scriptures teach that the Faithful (obedient children as Abraham and Zechariahs) are the ones that receive God's Grace. And that those who simply pay Him lip service while rejecting His Righteousness as defined by the Law and prophets do not.
Roman's 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4, Law and Prophets.)
Could it be that the reason Jesus came to "Preserve" the Law and Prophets, not destroy them, is because this is where God's Righteousness can be found so we can "submit" our self to them?
Add this to the mix. Jesus is talking.
John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Maybe you are the one who has been convinced of things about God which are not true. I'm not the only person on this forum who has exposed the differences between what the Scriptures teach, and what you teach. Your Word's are there Post. If you didn't mean them, that's OK. You can make it right anytime you want by explaining what you really meant.
That seems like a more righteous "work" than just calling folks, who expect that you believe what you write, liars and slanderers.
But you are free to do as you please.
That seems like a more righteous "work" than just calling folks, who expect that you believe what you write, liars and slanderers.
But you are free to do as you please.
Why do you keep using the now flawed KJV translation. The language and understanding of nature has changed over the 400 years since then. There are words that are no longer used. Do you know what a gold ouches is?
Here is a list of problems with the KJV because of the 400 years.
KJV Issues
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:
Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….
The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:
unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Isa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).
Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:
ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);
And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)
And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)
Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to a man who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!
(looked this up, it means the person is a man, NIV uses the word man)
Here is a list of problems with the KJV because of the 400 years.
KJV Issues
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:
Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….
The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:
unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Isa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).
Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:
ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);
And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)
And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)
Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to a man who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!
(looked this up, it means the person is a man, NIV uses the word man)
Writings of the New Testament Canon were created by looking at many manuscripts of the era and only accepting those that were deemed worthy of being part of the Canon. Many of those rejected were considered good for study but were considered flawed to be the Word of God. Many were rejected for that reason.
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it's one thing to disagree and have legitimate reasons.
it's quite another thing to take someone's words out. of one context and put them in an entirely different one, and to be corrected in your erroneous misrepresentation a half dozen times, yet with stiff neck refuse to stop saying what you know without doubt is slander.
but all this time you are supposed to be telling me what Matthew 17:24-27 means.
why are you bearing false witness repeatedly and belligerently in personal attack posts instead?
why deflect like this, not just avoiding talking about scripture, but doing so by twisting the truth in an attempt to debase a person?
it's quite another thing to take someone's words out. of one context and put them in an entirely different one, and to be corrected in your erroneous misrepresentation a half dozen times, yet with stiff neck refuse to stop saying what you know without doubt is slander.
but all this time you are supposed to be telling me what Matthew 17:24-27 means.
why are you bearing false witness repeatedly and belligerently in personal attack posts instead?
why deflect like this, not just avoiding talking about scripture, but doing so by twisting the truth in an attempt to debase a person?
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