Not By Works

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Oct 13, 2017
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I understand you point....it's just that theologians don't agree with it...except for a very few.
You're arguing with Jesus here...not with me.

Jesus said the son was LOST...
And has been found AGAIN....Again means something existed before and has now been restored.

I agree that God will take a person back JUST BY FAITH ALONE. Just as in the first case.
I still maintain that obedience to God is necessary...we should not be teaching that He'll love and save us anyway even if we don't obey.

This is dangerous.
You seem to be missing the point. The rejoicing is because of the return of a person who was lost!
 
Sep 14, 2018
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you might want to actually go see what the actual context and actual subject of the quote is that studydude is slanderously and willfully mischaracterizing me with before you start repeating his lies.

good job @Studyman now you've directly caused one of these little ones to sin.
when you were too busy making false personal attacks to study Matthew 17:24-27.
can i get you a millstone or is repentance found in you?
Hi Posthuman...
Isn't this what you said in post no. 77945?

You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.

But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word.


I was referring to the comment you made above..."a bunch of laws".
Is this how you feel about the 10 commandments?

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but it sure sounds like I understood correctly.
The scriptures DO support that God did not abolish the Law...
Mathew 5:17
To fulfill means to fulfill prophecies...not to somehow fulfill the law so we are not required to, as many understand today. Language can be a problem...
 
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You seem to be missing the point. The rejoicing is because of the return of a person who was lost!
I'd agree.
Except for that little word AGAIN...

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Again means that something existed BEFORE, was LOST, and then existed AGAIN.
This is simple English -- I don't know why it has to be discussed.

Also, those who believe as you do have to make up your minds if a son is a son...
If he was a son...
Then he WAS SAVED.

JESUS said the son became LOST.....
And was come to life AGAIN.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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they just yell about obedience , command keeping, yet ignore all the warnings about failure to keep all of them perfectly all the time.

there are 2 ways- perfectly keeping the Law or accepting Christ and His Righteousness.
this man-made " 3rd way " they craft will fail. hope one day they see this.
As I see the bible

We have 2 ways

The law (or laws, depending on which laws you are preaching)

Grace

Which one will we chose..
 
Oct 11, 2017
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Not hardly Fran....

Paul taught justification before God by faith ALONE

James makes the comparison between a mere belief in God as opposed to actual faith which can be seen by MEN....

You would do well to figure out and see the difference!
The Law and Prophets taught justification by Faith. Paul just furthered a teaching that was already there. He said so. He called it the Gospel of Christ where it is written therein "The just shall live by Faith". But if a person doesn't trust the Word of God which became Flesh enough to follow His instructions, as did Abraham, Noah and the rest of our examples of the "Faithful" then that is not faith. "Many" who come in Christ's name preach it is, but as James points out, dead faith isn't Faith. And Paul understood this perfectly.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law. (Not the Works of the Law for justification of sins the Christ gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, "Till the Seed should come", Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet. This Law was "ADDED" 430 years later as Paul tells us in Galatians 3)

Abraham did more than just serve the Christ with his lips. We are to have his Faith.

Fran seems to understand this, while you don't. You would do well to pay attention to her understanding, which seems centered in scripture, not modern religious tradition.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Either

1. The bible contradicts itself since James says faith AND works justify.

2. We have here a misunderstanding of the words: Works of the Law and Works.

There's a big difference.
Find out the difference....and you'll understand everything.
Paul said Faith apart from works
James said faith plus works

So we already have an appearant contradiction, if taken at face value

Yet we can look at context of both saying and the conflict disapears.

Paul,, Writing to people who claimed we had to work to maintain salvation, by adding all these works of the law. Said plainly. Even abraham was found by faith alone, if he was found by works, he would have something to boast about (because he saved himself) But what does scripture say, Abraham believed (had faith) and God accounted him as righteous

James, Speaking to licentious people who CLAIMED to have faith. But continued to live like the world. And did NOTHIN to show they were even remotely changed people of God. Said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS he has faith but HAS no works, Can that faith save him? No

A person who has TRUE faith will work (He agreed with paul. We are saved by faith alone, but those who are saved WILL WORK) So if YOU CLAIM you have faith, but do not show the works ALL saved people have, what is the problem?

Well james made it simple. Your faith is dead (non existent) if you have no faith. Your not saved, Either by pauls writting, James writings, Jesus writtings or any one elses. We are saved by a living faith, Not a dead one. And a living faith works. Not to maintain salvation. But because when you trust someone, You follow them. You only do not follow people you do not trust. You may believe in them, But you will not follow them (hence no works)
 
Jul 31, 2013
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I was referring to the comment you made above..."a bunch of laws".
Is this how you feel about the 10 commandments?
only the first blue paragraph you put was originally something i said. this is the subject of the quote, which is from over a year ago in a different thread -

Colossians 2:20-23
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

studydude does not exactly have a reputation for honest or accurate representation of facts. in fact he has a reputation for deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Not only the above,,,but I find here a lack of understanding of the word BELIEVE.

If everyone here understood that word, they'd stop posting verses that say we are to "believe" as if it meant to believe ONLY MENTALLY.

Belief in N.T. times meant more...as has been posted here many times.
One of the concepts it envelops is that of FOLLOWING.

If we FOLLOW (BELIEVE) Jesus, then we must DO what He commanded and taught.

Mathew 28:19-20
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So Jesus says to:

1. Make disciples
2. Baptize
3. Teach them
4. To observe all that I (Jesus) COMMANDED YOU.


This means there are commands ....
Some prefer to think all they have to do is "believe"...somehow or other.
WHile I agree, It is more than just mere belief.

What it means is we have true saving faith.

What it does not mean, is we have to believe, then obey some commands and we wil be ok. This is putting us right back under law. And you better understand what that means..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Some of the above is right.
Then you veer off according to what you've been taught.
One of us has to be wrong...

This is a story about being LOST and then COMING BACK.
And a LOVING FATHER waiting for us to come back WITH OPEN ARMS.

This is why Hebrews 6 is not as you understand it.
Get one thing wrong and you have to change the whole bible to suit the incorrect theology.
So you honestly think you will stand in front of God on your own merit and God will let you in.

He is not the one who is decieved here. You need to look inside, and look at Gods standard. Not your watered down standard.
 
Oct 13, 2017
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Did I not reply to that post above?
Post 77,931.

Off out for another date with my wife.
The kids are at the church youth group doing a 'silent disco'
When I say kids the three at home are 19,17 & 16.

It's interesting, I thought it would get easier as the got older.
But as they have it presents a new dynamic.

I understand we all have feelings.
That's one of my weak points.

This will probably be my last post tonight.
I need to do my hair:cool:
ROFL
At 74 and gone through 2 sets of adopted children I can testify that the older they get the bigger the problems!!
 
Oct 13, 2017
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WHile I agree, It is more than just mere belief.

What it means is we have true saving faith.

What it does not mean, is we have to believe, then obey some commands and we wil be ok. This is putting us right back under law. And you better understand what that means..
John 3:16 AMPC states it well. The AMPC puts the extra meanings of the original language words in parentheses. Trusts in, clings to and relies on add depth to the words believe in. Not just a simple belief.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I understand you point....it's just that theologians don't agree with it...except for a very few.
You're arguing with Jesus here...not with me.

Jesus said the son was LOST...
And has been found AGAIN....Again means something existed before and has now been restored.

I agree that God will take a person back JUST BY FAITH ALONE. Just as in the first case.
I still maintain that obedience to God is necessary...we should not be teaching that He'll love and save us anyway even if we don't obey.

This is dangerous.
did you miss the part where I said " the son would most likely will obey "

you guys should not apply critical theory to the Bible, or what others say.

( critical theory says, in a nutshell, that when person A says certain things, person B can glean meaning out of certain keywords, and tell what person A is saying, by using the keywords, so, as long as person A says the keywords, person B knows what they mean, not based on the entirety of what is said, but on the keywords.)

it is a silly practice that convinces people they can be mind readers .

see this at paly right here- I say the son was restored , and most likely will obey, and fran says that I said obedience is not required.

keyword " restored " . fran gleans that I think obedience is not required , based on the word " restored ".
 
Oct 11, 2017
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As I see the bible

We have 2 ways

The law (or laws, depending on which laws you are preaching)

Grace

Which one will we chose..
But the Elephant in the room, the topic you never wish to discuss, that you deflect from, refuse to answer questions of, and completely ignore is the Solid, Biblical Fact that not everyone who says they have/will receive God's Grace, or Mercy has actually received it. Not EVERY ONE is granted His Grace, or His Mercy.

This is Biblical Fact.

Now the Preachers of Christ's time claimed God's Mercy, but Jesus said because they practiced Lawlessness they were rejected.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

They had created their own righteousness, and had rejected the Righteousness of God.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This seems a pretty important deal. Now this same Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a man, He was the Word of God which created all things. As this Christ He said:

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This would seem to confirm His teaching as a man and also explain why these people received His Grace and Mercy and knew the Christ when He came to them:

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But these people did not.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You preach that if we are "Faithful" to God and Obey His Commandments as He instructed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that we will not receive Grace because we are trying to earn salvation by obeyed the Father and that somehow Jesus is opposed to that.

Yet, the Bible seems clear that the opposite is true. That only those who Trust God enough to let His Word's guide our footsteps are granted Mercy and Grace.

That those who reject His instructions are cursed, not those who "strive to live by them", as Abraham did and the Christ instructed.

2 ways? I don't think God's Grace, and being Faithful to God and His Word are 2 different ways at all. I think the scriptures teach that the Faithful (obedient children as Abraham and Zechariahs) are the ones that receive God's Grace. And that those who simply pay Him lip service while rejecting His Righteousness as defined by the Law and prophets do not.

Roman's 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4, Law and Prophets.)

Could it be that the reason Jesus came to "Preserve" the Law and Prophets, not destroy them, is because this is where God's Righteousness can be found so we can "submit" our self to them?
 
Oct 13, 2017
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You know which one it is.
OUR Jesus is able to finish what He starts....
as long as we wish Him to.

I can't explain it any better...
As long as we walk with Jesus, we're saved.
If we stop walking with Him, we're no longer saved.
(I said walking...I'm not talking about sin)
Add this to the mix. Jesus is talking.

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
 
Oct 11, 2017
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you might want to actually go see what the actual context and actual subject of the quote is that studydude is slanderously and willfully mischaracterizing me with before you start repeating his lies.

good job @Studyman now you've directly caused one of these little ones to sin.
when you were too busy making false personal attacks to study Matthew 17:24-27.
can i get you a millstone or is repentance found in you?
Maybe you are the one who has been convinced of things about God which are not true. I'm not the only person on this forum who has exposed the differences between what the Scriptures teach, and what you teach. Your Word's are there Post. If you didn't mean them, that's OK. You can make it right anytime you want by explaining what you really meant.

That seems like a more righteous "work" than just calling folks, who expect that you believe what you write, liars and slanderers.

But you are free to do as you please.
 
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But the Elephant in the room, the topic you never wish to discuss, that you deflect from, refuse to answer questions of, and completely ignore is the Solid, Biblical Fact that not everyone who says they have/will receive God's Grace, or Mercy has actually received it. Not EVERY ONE is granted His Grace, or His Mercy.

This is Biblical Fact.

Now the Preachers of Christ's time claimed God's Mercy, but Jesus said because they practiced Lawlessness they were rejected.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

They had created their own righteousness, and had rejected the Righteousness of God.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This seems a pretty important deal. Now this same Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a man, He was the Word of God which created all things. As this Christ He said:

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This would seem to confirm His teaching as a man and also explain why these people received His Grace and Mercy and knew the Christ when He came to them:

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But these people did not.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You preach that if we are "Faithful" to God and Obey His Commandments as He instructed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that we will not receive Grace because we are trying to earn salvation by obeyed the Father and that somehow Jesus is opposed to that.

Yet, the Bible seems clear that the opposite is true. That only those who Trust God enough to let His Word's guide our footsteps are granted Mercy and Grace.

That those who reject His instructions are cursed, not those who "strive to live by them", as Abraham did and the Christ instructed.

2 ways? I don't think God's Grace, and being Faithful to God and His Word are 2 different ways at all. I think the scriptures teach that the Faithful (obedient children as Abraham and Zechariahs) are the ones that receive God's Grace. And that those who simply pay Him lip service while rejecting His Righteousness as defined by the Law and prophets do not.

Roman's 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4, Law and Prophets.)

Could it be that the reason Jesus came to "Preserve" the Law and Prophets, not destroy them, is because this is where God's Righteousness can be found so we can "submit" our self to them?
Why do you keep using the now flawed KJV translation. The language and understanding of nature has changed over the 400 years since then. There are words that are no longer used. Do you know what a gold ouches is?

Here is a list of problems with the KJV because of the 400 years.

KJV Issues
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:

Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….

The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:

unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Isa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).

Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:

ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);

And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)

And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)


Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to a man who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!
(looked this up, it means the person is a man, NIV uses the word man)
 
Oct 13, 2017
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Hey! Trinket jewelry is in style now!

I agree with what you say above.
I do want to say that sometimes when one leaves the faith, they do come back.
Sometimes they don't. As I've said many times,,,Jesus will not force us to come back...He does look for us and will always accept us back --- but we have to want to go back. Look how sweet that little lamb is on His shoulders -- he's not struggling but going quietly and peacefully.
Can you not accept that some people just want OUT? And never come back?
What's 2 Peter 2:19-20 all about? It doesn't matter who it's talking about, teachers,,,fine...it matters that they left the faith.



This is an issue that divides Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinists adhere to OSAS while Arminians believe you can lose your salvation.
 
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I knew you'd say that.
How does Paul trump Clement?
Clement KNEW Paul and studied under him.

It was considered that Clement should be included in the N.T. and also some others.
Don't you know this???
Writings of the New Testament Canon were created by looking at many manuscripts of the era and only accepting those that were deemed worthy of being part of the Canon. Many of those rejected were considered good for study but were considered flawed to be the Word of God. Many were rejected for that reason.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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Maybe you are the one who has been convinced of things about God which are not true. I'm not the only person on this forum who has exposed the differences between what the Scriptures teach, and what you teach. Your Word's are there Post. If you didn't mean them, that's OK. You can make it right anytime you want by explaining what you really meant.

That seems like a more righteous "work" than just calling folks, who expect that you believe what you write, liars and slanderers.

But you are free to do as you please.
it's one thing to disagree and have legitimate reasons.

it's quite another thing to take someone's words out. of one context and put them in an entirely different one, and to be corrected in your erroneous misrepresentation a half dozen times, yet with stiff neck refuse to stop saying what you know without doubt is slander.


but all this time you are supposed to be telling me what Matthew 17:24-27 means.
why are you bearing false witness repeatedly and belligerently in personal attack posts instead?
why deflect like this, not just avoiding talking about scripture, but doing so by twisting the truth in an attempt to debase a person?
 
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Me neither....he was a son through the whole process and only perceived as dead though very much alive........
I wish I could know one way or another but the concept is one of the dividing differences of Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are very Biblical. I studied their writings and both have a multitude of verses backing up their opposing beliefs. That being said I'm a Calvinist.