Not By Works

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Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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only the first blue paragraph you put was originally something i said. this is the subject of the quote, which is from over a year ago in a different thread -

Colossians 2:20-23
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

studydude does not exactly have a reputation for honest or accurate representation of facts. in fact he has a reputation for deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But Paul is speaking about two things in Col. 2.

God's Word, and Man's Word.

Col. 2:
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, (Of Abraham, yes) as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man (Not the word of God)spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, (Like God's Commandments are just a "bunch of laws" like any pagan religion) after the tradition of men, (wicked above all things and desperately wicked) after the rudiments of the world, (Religious doctrines and traditions of men) and not after Christ. (Who created all things, including the same instructions you preach are just a "bunch of laws")

The Jews had created their own definition of Holy and Clean, they were NOT obeying God Post. They, like "many" who come in Christ's Name, had created their own religious path, their own righteousness, and had refused to submit to the Righteousness of God. That is Paul's teaching. But because you have said and are convinced that the Pharisee's were trying to please God, or earn His Mercy by obeying God's Laws, you can't see what I am talking about. This "belief" you have is blinding you, while you have been convinced this belief has set you "FREE".

So in Col. 2, there is mention of "vain deceit" tradition of men, and rudiments of the world. But because you have been deceived into believing there is no difference between God's Commandments that He created for man, and man's religious traditions of those who refuse to submit to God's righteousness, you confuse the two.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Since you believe God's "ordinances" are no different than satan's ordinances, as your post clearly reveals, you preach there is no difference, that ALL religious instructions are "vain deceit" and are against us. Refusing to accept the very Word's of the Christ which teaches the opposite.

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

So you must also believe that the Christ made a show of the God who created these "ordinances" and triumphed over the Creator of these "Ordinance" that are "AGAINST" us. When I asked who the them was, you ignored the question because the answer to this simple question exposes your understanding as in error.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Man's religious traditions, satan's religious traditions are a shadow of nothing. But God's Salvation plan as spelled out through HIS Feasts and Sabbaths are a shadow of things to come.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Who was critical of the Gentiles who turned to God? Religious leaders who believed the Word which became Flesh? No, Post, the mainstream Preachers of His time who "taught for doctrines the Commandments of MEN, not God as you preach.

19 And not holding the Head, (The Creator of all things)from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. (The Word which became Flesh)

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

The religions of the land had their own religion. Jesus said so. You couldn't eat without first following some religious hand cleansing ritual. You couldn't walk on the Sabbath and eat a strawberry. You couldn't help a brother on His Holy Sabbath. The list goes on and on. These were religious traditions of men, rudiments of the prince of this world. Not of God as you preach.

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (Not God as you preach)

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

These religions of man look good. But they are not from the Christ. This chapter is a warning to stick to the Word's of Christ which He said is "Life", not the religious traditions of the religions of the land.

If you want to explain to me where this understanding is not supported by the rest of the Bible, please do. I will welcome your input as to how the Bible exposes this understanding wrong. But if you continue to just ignore these questions and points in order to preserve your own religion, then don't waste your time.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Has NOTHING to do with putting oneself under the law. This is the common claim of those who reject parts of the NT. They struggle to understand the scriptural difference between the written law and the law of the Spirit. People can only see one side or the other, not the whole truth. It is not a matter of meeting God's standard; we cannot and that is not in dispute. Paul said "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" Paul acknowledges he is not perfect now. But he says he strives or follows. Scripture says very clearly: "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." To be led by the Holy Spirit means you are following. We are not led of the Holy Spirit if we, through our free will, are going a different direction from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us away from sin. The Holy Spirit leads us to love others. The Holy Spirit leads us to love God. The Holy Spirit leads us to do works befitting repentance. It is the difference between living in the Spirit and living in the flesh. it is the difference between being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking with the Holy Spirit. God Bless.....
You can say this all you want

If you reject grace and try to earn your salvation by your works, Your under law. Thats not my words, That is the Bible

The fact you can not understand this just baffles my mind.

What makes you any different than a pharisee? Nothing, you both puff yoursef up Thank God you are not like the sinner, all the while not understanding God will reject all your good deeds

You want to hand God your body, tainted with sin, and say here God take me as I am, I did all these great works, you will recieve me.

God will tell you depart from him for he never knew you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Where on earth did EG say that or even imply that with regards to murder?
If neither apply why ask such a question?

And as EG rightly said



Yet you ask him such a question.

That seems the go to for those opposed to

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
What did God say he would do to the humble?

If I dare get so puffed up in pride, I start thinking I can obey God in a way I deserve eternal life someone shoot me, Because at that momernt, my faith has come off of God. And been placed in self..
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Period.
The problem is at judgement time Jesus prophecied that some would point to their works and Jesus says, "Begone I never knew you." Those never were saved because they never accepted the grace through faith in Jesus. Very possibly in a church with secular ministers. They never heard the gospel message.
I believe you may have missing the Christ's point here. Jesus just got through saying "by their fruits you shall know them" And that those who did not "DO THE WILL" of God will not go to heaven. And that "Enter the straight gate", another "work we are to partake in.

In verse 23 Jesus is talking about "That day". In this case, the 2nd resurrection, not the first. These guys have been given plenty of time to "Enter the Straight Gate", to "Keep His Sayings", "to submit to the Righteousness of God" but they chose instead to follow a religion which didn't care about these things. When their eyes were opened, and they saw the Lake of Fire, they defended their religion as will all who refuse the "Will of God" and choose the religious traditions of man instead.

It is important to note that Jesus didn't say anything to them about the things they did in His Name.

He only mentioned the things they refused to do. And that is the same thing Eve refused to do in the beginning. "Practiced Lawlessness". I think these are important points regarding His Teaching.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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What did God say he would do to the humble?

If I dare get so puffed up in pride, I start thinking I can obey God in a way I deserve eternal life someone shoot me, Because at that momernt, my faith has come off of God. And been placed in self..
Hang on for a minute, I'm just getting my

3A549DBF-4528-4450-880A-564E5E0C36BF.jpeg 3A549DBF-4528-4450-880A-564E5E0C36BF.jpeg
Go ahead punk make my day.

When will people learn that we do works as a result off.

John 14:15-16

Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

It doesn't stop at our neighbours, it extends to our enemies.
It also goes into our workplace as well.
Anyone on here concentrate on preaching Jesus in the workplace when they should be doing the work they are paid for?

It envelopes our whole life, our love of Jesus is why obey him.
After all it's written on our hearts, that being the case it's out of love, because he first loved us.

1 Corinthians 13:13
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Paul said Faith apart from works
James said faith plus works

So we already have an appearant contradiction, if taken at face value

Yet we can look at context of both saying and the conflict disapears.

Paul,, Writing to people who claimed we had to work to maintain salvation, by adding all these works of the law. Said plainly. Even abraham was found by faith alone, if he was found by works, he would have something to boast about (because he saved himself) But what does scripture say, Abraham believed (had faith) and God accounted him as righteous

James, Speaking to licentious people who CLAIMED to have faith. But continued to live like the world. And did NOTHIN to show they were even remotely changed people of God. Said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS he has faith but HAS no works, Can that faith save him? No

A person who has TRUE faith will work (He agreed with paul. We are saved by faith alone, but those who are saved WILL WORK) So if YOU CLAIM you have faith, but do not show the works ALL saved people have, what is the problem?

Well james made it simple. Your faith is dead (non existent) if you have no faith. Your not saved, Either by pauls writting, James writings, Jesus writtings or any one elses. We are saved by a living faith, Not a dead one. And a living faith works. Not to maintain salvation. But because when you trust someone, You follow them. You only do not follow people you do not trust. You may believe in them, But you will not follow them (hence no works)
AGREED!
:)
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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WHile I agree, It is more than just mere belief.

What it means is we have true saving faith.

What it does not mean, is we have to believe, then obey some commands and we wil be ok. This is putting us right back under law. And you better understand what that means..
Oh my. Back where we started.

We DO have to believe,
and we DO have to obey "some commands".
This does NOT put us back under the law.

The law, the Mosaic Covenant, said that Israel had to obey God and follow the commandments in order to be saved. They said they'd do it, but they COULDN'T. Why? Because they didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit. This is the only big difference between the Mosaic C. and the New C.

The New C. gives us the POWER of the Holy Spirit in ORDER TO obey the commandments.
Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem and they would be empowered by the Spirit.
Acts 1:8

We now have an advocate with the Father, Hebrews, and it doesn't depend only on ourselves.
We can now trust Jesus to make up where we fall off....now it depends on our faith and not on our works, to be saved.

Abraham had faith,,,but when God told him to leave Ur, he did...he always obeyed God.
I refer you also to Genesis 18:19.

The Israelites tried to keep the law without loving God...As soon as Moses left they built the golden calf...THIS is trying to WORK your way to God under the Law.

We LOVE God and work because we WANT to.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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="eternally-gratefull, post: 3792435, member: 82611"]You can say this all you want

If you reject grace and try to earn your salvation by your works, Your under law. Thats not my words, That is the Bible


So in your religion I must disobey God in order to have Grace? Otherwise I am "rejecting Grace". I don't think so EG. I think this is your Word's not the Christ's.

The fact you can not understand this just baffles my mind.
What makes you any different than a pharisee? Nothing, you both puff yoursef up Thank God you are not like the sinner, all the while not understanding God will reject all your good deeds


Jesus said the Mainstream preachers of His Time, the Pharisees, taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, Not God. These are His Words. How is RTG doing that?

You want to hand God your body, tainted with sin, and say here God take me as I am, I did all these great works, you will recieve me.

God will tell you depart from him for he never knew you


No EG. RTG is saying "Here I am Lord, tainted with sin. Teach me Your Ways, lead me in YOUR Righteousness, guide my footsteps according to your wisdom and your Words. Free me and protect me from the deception of religious man that lie in wait to deceive. For I trust in Your Word's. Create a heart in me to follow You.

Ps. 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.


I think your condemnation of RTG is from your own spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
you are now saying that what i meant with my own comment is a matter of opinion?
that your twisted mischaracterizing about what i meant and what i was referring to by what i said is more accurate than my own knowledge of what i myself intended to communicate ?

lol that's rich.

instead of studying Matthew 17:24-27.

are you maybe waiting for saturday before you can concentrate on the word of God?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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James, Speaking to licentious people who CLAIMED to have faith. But continued to live like the world. And did NOTHIN to show they were even remotely changed people of God. Said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS he has faith but HAS no works, Can that faith save him? No
Sorry EG but I need to ask a question here.
But I would like to question "James addressing licentious people"
My understanding of the word licentious does fit what James was addressing.

I think he was addressing the issue of personal favouritism.
Addressing the cultural issue of the rich and the poor.
Culture being if you are rich you are blessed by God, if not then not blessed by God.

So basically he saying to the rich.

James 2:1-7

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

James 2:14-18

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

For me I relate that back to sheep and the goats.

Hope I make some sense.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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did you miss the part where I said " the son would most likely will obey "

you guys should not apply critical theory to the Bible, or what others say.

( critical theory says, in a nutshell, that when person A says certain things, person B can glean meaning out of certain keywords, and tell what person A is saying, by using the keywords, so, as long as person A says the keywords, person B knows what they mean, not based on the entirety of what is said, but on the keywords.)

it is a silly practice that convinces people they can be mind readers .

see this at paly right here- I say the son was restored , and most likely will obey, and fran says that I said obedience is not required.

keyword " restored " . fran gleans that I think obedience is not required , based on the word " restored ".
I try to understand what persons are saying. I could misunderstand at times...nobody's perfect.

I agreed with what you said !

I was referring to your very last sentence in post no. 78,099:
let's not skip this part- when the son returned , the father restored him just with him coming back and mumbling an apology.

he did not have to do works to be restored. but, I would say it is safe to say, after he saw how bad life was away from his father's house, he gladly did what the father said.

but not to be restored, or maintain his status . the father already did. the father has the authority.


I was disagreeing only with the last sentence...
I believe works are necessary to maintain salvation.
If I remember your theology correctly, you don't.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hang on for a minute, I'm just getting my

View attachment 191631 View attachment 191631
Go ahead punk make my day.

When will people learn that we do works as a result off.

John 14:15-16

Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

It doesn't stop at our neighbours, it extends to our enemies.
It also goes into our workplace as well.
Anyone on here concentrate on preaching Jesus in the workplace when they should be doing the work they are paid for?

It envelopes our whole life, our love of Jesus is why obey him.
After all it's written on our hearts, that being the case it's out of love, because he first loved us.

1 Corinthians 13:13
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Its ok, He can not even get the greek right.

One aspect of a subjunctive verb is something done in order that something else may be done or accomplished.

Example - Jesus said, I came in order that you may have life.

Jesus made it clear. I will give you the helper in order than he may abide or be with you. Not that he may come wiht you but remember, he may leave you if you do not do something.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sorry EG but I need to ask a question here.
But I would like to question "James addressing licentious people"
My understanding of the word licentious does fit what James was addressing.

I think he was addressing the issue of personal favouritism.
Addressing the cultural issue of the rich and the poor.
Culture being if you are rich you are blessed by God, if not then not blessed by God.

So basically he saying to the rich.

James 2:1-7

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

James 2:14-18

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

For me I relate that back to sheep and the goats.

Hope I make some sense.
I see what your saying, but lets look at the passage itself

1. They believe - even angels believe
2. The claim to have faith - but it is dead (non existent or absent faith)
3. They have no works. (Their personal faith was powerless)

This is the defenition of licentious. Or what people would call easy believism where all you have to do is believe, and your saved and going to heaven, even though there was no faith.
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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Add this to the mix. Jesus is talking.

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
You know my answer to this, I'm sure.
I agree with the above....
But we could walk out of those hands.
Jesus Himself said so in Luke 8:13

Some accept the word and they BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then tribulation comes and they leave the faith. There are a few reasons for leaving the faith...I'd say tribulation has to be at the top of the list.

I don't know what's so scary about this....
If we hold on to Jesus, we'll always be saved.
Even Paul admonishes us to hold on...
Hebrews 3:6
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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This is an issue that divides Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinists adhere to OSAS while Arminians believe you can lose your salvation.
Yes. But even Calvin said that it's not easy to hold on to salvation.
If I could find the link, I'll post it.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The FREE GIFT of God is His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
(Romans 6:23, revelations 22:17)

...“For God so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” John 3:16-21

...Now THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

Then John said;

...WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know WE ARE IN HIM: Whoever CLAIMS to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did.

WE CAN BE IN JESUS IF WE OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. HE IS THE LIFE THAT WE MUST ENTER IN. (john 14:6)... ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS. (Romans 6:23)

...If you want TO ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” matthew 19:17

...Although he was a son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED hebrews 5:8

...To this you were called, because Christ SUFFERED for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. 1 Peter 2:21

...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29

Those who truly believes in the Son of God loves the light and Jesus is the LIGHT of the world.

Whoever loves Jesus stays in the light and OBEYS His commands. Whoever does not OBEY His commands hates the LIGHT. Whoever hates the LIGHT, hates God. Whoever hates God are enemies of God.

...THEY STUMBLE BECAUSE THEY DISOBEY THE MESSAGE—which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8

...As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are IRREVOCABLE. Romans 11:28-29

Paul was talking here about GOD'S calling and gifts to Israel.

...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5

...This is IRREVOCABLE.

But what did he say to the Gentiles?

...I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, DO NOT BOAST OVER THOSE BRANCHES. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, BUT BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11:13-24
None of what you said equates to a work based or blended salvation that is obtained or maintained by works.....no matter how many time you attempt to conflate the two.....and make no mistake....every time you do...you end up with a false gospel of a different kind with no power to save, one that is double cursed and all who believe it are fools and bewitched
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh my. Back where we started.

We DO have to believe,
and we DO have to obey "some commands".
This does NOT put us back under the law.

The law, the Mosaic Covenant, said that Israel had to obey God and follow the commandments in order to be saved. They said they'd do it, but they COULDN'T. Why? Because they didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit. This is the only big difference between the Mosaic C. and the New C.

The New C. gives us the POWER of the Holy Spirit in ORDER TO obey the commandments.
Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem and they would be empowered by the Spirit.
Acts 1:8

We now have an advocate with the Father, Hebrews, and it doesn't depend only on ourselves.
We can now trust Jesus to make up where we fall off....now it depends on our faith and not on our works, to be saved.

Abraham had faith,,,but when God told him to leave Ur, he did...he always obeyed God.
I refer you also to Genesis 18:19.

The Israelites tried to keep the law without loving God...As soon as Moses left they built the golden calf...THIS is trying to WORK your way to God under the Law.

We LOVE God and work because we WANT to.
You still do not get it.

These are moses words.

Deuteronomy 27:26
Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen

And if you have any questions, Paul made it clear exactly what Moses said and meant.

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

The fact you think anyone was ever saved by obedeince to the law just destroys anything you say, If you can not realise the law can ONLY CONDEMN, because NO OnE CAN OBEY IT. Just goes to prove you can not understand the gospel of Grace.

Instead of trying to teach, You need to go reread and study hard. And Ask God for guidance, remembering, Satan comes as an angel of light, and if you do not lay aside all pride. You may hear from one, thinking it is the other, and never find truth.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
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What do the following mean

a. Have the righteousness of Christ imputed by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

b. Concluding a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law

c. The gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE


NO AND NO to your questions....
None of what you said equates to a work based or blended salvation that is obtained or maintained by works.....no matter how many time you attempt to conflate the two.....and make no mistake....every time you do...you end up with a false gospel of a different kind with no power to save, one that is double cursed and all who believe it are fools and bewitched
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.


These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)


...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?


..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19




Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.


The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.


Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?




So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?