Not By Works

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Oct 13, 2017
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it's one thing to disagree and have legitimate reasons.

it's quite another thing to take someone's words out. of one context and put them in an entirely different one, and to be corrected in your erroneous misrepresentation a half dozen times, yet with stiff neck refuse to stop saying what you know without doubt is slander.


but all this time you are supposed to be telling me what Matthew 17:24-27 means.
why are you bearing false witness repeatedly and belligerently in personal attack posts instead?
why deflect like this, not just avoiding talking about scripture, but doing so by twisting the truth in an attempt to debase a person?
What too many ignore is the early elders were looking at the diverse issues going from legitimate differences of opinion to heresy and created the creeds. The creeds had 3 purposes.
1. To define what a person must believe to be a Christian.
2. Anything contrary is heresy.
3. Any Biblical issue outside of it is to agree to disagree.

The many gospel preaching denominations are proof of this. Disagreements abound. We need to be understanding about these legitimate differences of opinion. But hold the line on heresy.
 
Oct 13, 2017
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Paul did not teach a works based or kept salvation...........
Too many look at James and Paul and try to make an issue where there is none. The problem is caused by trying to put Hebrew concepts into Greek. This is at the heart of the controversy. James stated one method and Paul stated another method of saying the same thing.
 
Oct 13, 2017
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So if a gnostic claimed to be part of the church and now is an antichrist, He was never saved.

But if a non gnostic did the same thing, he lost salvation.

How can someone argue with you. If you think this is true. You can just throw half the bible out. If you think this.

I know about gnositicism I also know about phariseeism, And I know we have people today who may not be those two groups. But they have the same issues, the bible would relate to them also.
Do you know Calvinism vs Arminianism? This issue is part of the total list of opposing views these 2 Christian groups have. OSAS vs losing salvation.
 
Oct 13, 2017
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Here is another scripture....

We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds/ works of the LAW!

Simple yes or no will suffice....DO YOU KEEP THE LAW or HAVE YOU KEPT THE LAW YOUR WHOLE LIFE?
Here is the heart of the contraversy about works.
Works doesn't save but no works is evidence of no faith.
Works therefore is evidence of true faith.
This caused James to write faith without works is dead.
 

J70x7

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Jun 13, 2018
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Matthew 10:22
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Hebrews 12:7

Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?
 
Jul 17, 2017
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but all this time you are supposed to be telling me what Matthew 17:24-27 means. why are you bearing false witness repeatedly and belligerently in personal attack posts instead?
Hi posthuman, Studyman is being Stubornman because he knows the answer will reveal his fake man made religion.

Here's a hint however; "Its hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way"

The Temple Tax: Matthew17:24-27
24) After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”25) “Yes, he does,” he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”26) “From others,” Peter answered. “Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27) “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin.
Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Extinguishshed is still not removal is it?

If the HS is not removed. And still inside you. Are you not still saved?
Extinguished is to put out. David prayed that God would not take His spirit away so he knew that was a possibility. Also the one verse i am aware of which seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever has been rewritten inconsistent with the original Greek. John 14:16 is rendered in the KJV as "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." if we look at the underlying Greek in all manuscripts, we see the subjective mood, the mood of possibility, not certainty. Each of us must make our own decision.... God Bless
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Not only the above,,,but I find here a lack of understanding of the word BELIEVE.

If everyone here understood that word, they'd stop posting verses that say we are to "believe" as if it meant to believe ONLY MENTALLY.

Belief in N.T. times meant more...as has been posted here many times.
One of the concepts it envelops is that of FOLLOWING.

If we FOLLOW (BELIEVE) Jesus, then we must DO what He commanded and taught.

Mathew 28:19-20
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So Jesus says to:

1. Make disciples
2. Baptize
3. Teach them
4. To observe all that I (Jesus) COMMANDED YOU.


This means there are commands ....
Some prefer to think all they have to do is "believe"...somehow or other.
Amen
 
Oct 13, 2017
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But the Elephant in the room, the topic you never wish to discuss, that you deflect from, refuse to answer questions of, and completely ignore is the Solid, Biblical Fact that not everyone who says they have/will receive God's Grace, or Mercy has actually received it. Not EVERY ONE is granted His Grace, or His Mercy.

This is Biblical Fact.

Now the Preachers of Christ's time claimed God's Mercy, but Jesus said because they practiced Lawlessness they were rejected.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

They had created their own righteousness, and had rejected the Righteousness of God.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This seems a pretty important deal. Now this same Bible teaches that before Jesus came to earth as a man, He was the Word of God which created all things. As this Christ He said:

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This would seem to confirm His teaching as a man and also explain why these people received His Grace and Mercy and knew the Christ when He came to them:

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But these people did not.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You preach that if we are "Faithful" to God and Obey His Commandments as He instructed over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that we will not receive Grace because we are trying to earn salvation by obeyed the Father and that somehow Jesus is opposed to that.

Yet, the Bible seems clear that the opposite is true. That only those who Trust God enough to let His Word's guide our footsteps are granted Mercy and Grace.

That those who reject His instructions are cursed, not those who "strive to live by them", as Abraham did and the Christ instructed.

2 ways? I don't think God's Grace, and being Faithful to God and His Word are 2 different ways at all. I think the scriptures teach that the Faithful (obedient children as Abraham and Zechariahs) are the ones that receive God's Grace. And that those who simply pay Him lip service while rejecting His Righteousness as defined by the Law and prophets do not.

Roman's 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4, Law and Prophets.)

Could it be that the reason Jesus came to "Preserve" the Law and Prophets, not destroy them, is because this is where God's Righteousness can be found so we can "submit" our self to them?
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Period.
The problem is at judgement time Jesus prophecied that some would point to their works and Jesus says, "Begone I never knew you." Those never were saved because they never accepted the grace through faith in Jesus. Very possibly in a church with secular ministers. They never heard the gospel message.
 

J70x7

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June 17, 2017 by Jonathan Byrd

Final Perseverance – Preparation For Death – Considerations XXXI

” He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”— Matt. xxiv. 13.

http://www.traditionalcatholicpries...erance-preparation-death-considerations-xxxi/

FIRST POINT.

Necessity of Perseverance.—Means of Defense against the Devil.

JEROME says that many begin well but few persevere (Cont. Jovin. 1, 1). Saul, Judas, Tertullian, began well, but ended badly, because they did not persevere in grace. The Lord, says St. Jerome, requires not only the beginning of a good life, but also the end: (Ep. ad Fur.) it is the end that will be rewarded. St. Bonaventure says that the crown is given only to perseverance. (Diaet. Sal. 1, 8, c. 2). Hence St. Laurence Justinian calls perseverance the “gate of heaven.” (De Obed. c. 26).

No one can enter paradise unless he finds the gate of heaven. My brother, at present you have renounced sin, and justly hope that you have been pardoned. You are then the friend of God: but remember that you are not yet saved. And when will you be saved ? When you will have persevered to the end. He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved (Matt. xxiv, 13). Have you begun a good life ? Thank the Lord for it: but St. Bernard warns you that to him who begins, a reward is only promised, and is given only to him who perseveres S 82 (De modo bene viv. s. 6). It is not enough to run for the prize, you must run till you win it. So run, says St. Paul, that you may obtain (1 Cor. ix, 24). You have already put your hand to the plough, and you have begun to live well; but now you must tremble and fear more than ever. With fear and trembling work out your salvation (Phil. ii, 12). And why ? Because if—which God forbid—you look back and return to a life of sin, God will declare you unfit for paradise. No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God (Luke, ix, 62). At present, through the grace of God, you avoid evil occasions, you frequent the sacraments, and make meditation every day.

Happy you if you continue to do so, and if, when he comes to judge you, Jesus Christ will find you doing these things. Blessed is that servant whom, when his lord shall come, he shall find so doing ( Matt. xxiv, 46). But do not imagine that, now that you have begun to serve God, there is as it were an end, or a lack of temptations: listen to the advice of the Holy Ghost. Son, when thou comest to the service of God . . . prepare thy soul for temptation (Ecclus. ii, 1). Remember that now more than ever you must prepare yourself for conflicts, because your enemies, the world, the devil, and the flesh, will arm themselves now more than ever to fight against you in order to deprive you of all that you have acquired. Denis the Carthusian says, that the more a soul gives itself to God, the more strenuously hell labors to destroy it.

And this is sufficiently expressed in the Gospel of St. Luke, where Jesus Christ says: When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest, and not finding it, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out. And when he is come, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and entering in, they dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse 83 than the first (Luke, xi, 24).

When banished from a soul, the devil finds no repose, and does everything in his power to return: he even calls companions to his aid; and if he succeeds in re-entering, the second fall of that soul will be far more ruinous than the first. Consider, then, what arms you must use in order to defend yourselves against these enemies, and to preserve your soul in the grace of God. To escape defeat, and to conquer the devil, there is no other defense than prayer. St. Paul says that we have to contend, not with men of flesh and blood like ourselves, but with the princes of hell. Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers (Eph. vi, 12).

By these words the Apostle wished to admonish us that we have not strength to resist such powerful enemies, and that we stand in need of aid from God. With his aid we shall be able to do all things. I can do all things in Him that strengthened me (Phil. iv, 13). Such is the language of St. Paul; such, too, should be our language. But this divine aid is given only to those who pray for it. Ask and you shall receive. Let us, then not trust in our purposes; if we trust in them, we shall be lost. Whenever the devil tempts us, let us place our entire confidence in the divine assistance, and let us recommend ourselves to Jesus Christ, and to the Most Holy Mary.

We ought to do this particularly as often as we are tempted against chastity; for this is the most terrible of all temptations, and is the one by which the devil gains most victories. We have not strength to preserve chastity; this strength must come from God. And, said Solomon, as I knew that I could not otherwise be continent except God gave it, . . . I went to the Lord, and besought him (Wis. viii, 21). In such temptations, then, we must instantly have recourse to Jesus Christ, and to his holy Mother, frequently invoking the most holy names of Jesus and 84 Mary. He who does this, will conquer; he who neglects it, will be lost.

Affections and Prayers

Oh, my God! ” cast me not away from Thy face.” I know that Thou wilt never abandon me, unless I first abandon Thee. Experience of my own weakness makes me tremble lest I should again forsake Thee. Lord ! it is from Thee I must receive the strength necessary to conquer hell, which labors to make me again its slave. This strength I ask of Thee for the sake of Jesus Christ. O my Saviour! establish between Thee and me a perpetual peace, which will never be broken for all eternity. For this purpose I ask Thy love. ” He who loves not is dead.” O God of my soul, it is by Thee I must be saved from this unhappy death. I was lost; Thou knowest it. It is Thy goodness alone that has brought me into the state in which I am at present, in which I hope I am Thy friend. Ah, my Jesus! through the painful death which Thou didst suffer for my salvation, do not permit me ever more to lose Thee voluntarily.

I love Thee above all things, I hope to see myself always bound with this holy love, and to die in the bonds of love, and to live for eternity in the chains of Thy love. O Mary! thou art called the mother of perseverance; through thee this great gift is dispensed. Through thy intercession I ask and hope to obtain it.
 

J70x7

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SECOND POINT

We must Conquer the World. Let us now see how we must conquer the world.

The devil is a great enemy of our salvation, but the world is worse. If the devil did not make use of the world and of wicked men, by whom we mean the world, he would not obtain the victories which he gains. But says Jesus Christ, beware of men (Matt. x, 17). Men are often A L 85 worse than the devils; for these are put to flight when we pray and invoke the most holy names of Jesus and Mary.

But when a person gives a becoming answer to wicked companions, who tempt him to sin, they redouble their efforts, they treat him with ridicule, upbraiding him with vulgarity and want of education; and when they can say nothing else, they call him a hypocrite, who only pretends to sanctity.

To escape such derision and reproach, certain weak souls miserably associate with these ministers of Lucifer, and return to the vomit. My brother, be persuaded that, if you wish to lead a holy life, you must expect the ridicule and contempt of the wicked. The wicked, says the Holy Ghost, loathe them that are in the right way (Prov. xxix, 27).

He who lives in sin cannot bear the sight of those who live according to the Gospel. And why ? Because their life is a continual reproach to him; and therefore to avoid the pain of remorse caused by the good example of others, he would wish that all should imitate his own wickedness. There is no remedy.

The Apostle tells us that he who serves God must be persecuted by the world. All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Tim. iii, 12). All the saints have been persecuted. Who was more holy than Jesus Christ? The world persecuted him so as to cause him to bleed to death on a cross. There is no help for this; for the maxims of the world are diametrically opposed to the maxims of Jesus Christ.

What the world esteems, Jesus Christ has called folly. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (1 Cor. iii, 19). And the world regards as folly what Jesus Christ has strongly recommended,—such as crosses, pains, and contempts. For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness (1 Cor. iii, 18). But if the wicked revile and reproach us, let us console ourselves with the reflection that God blesses and praises us. They will curse, and Thou wilt bless (Ps. cviii, 28). Is it not enough 86 for us to be praised by God, by Mary, by the angels, the saints, and all good men ?

Let us, then, leave sinners to say what they please, and let us continue to please God, who is grateful and faithful to all who serve him. The greater the opposition and difficulty we meet in doing good, the more we shall please God and treasure up merits for ourselves. Let us imagine that we are alone with God in this world. When the wicked treat us with derision, let us recommend them to the Lord, let us thank him for giving us light, which he does not give to these miserable men, and let us continue our journey.

Let us not be ashamed to appear like Christians; for, if we are ashamed of Jesus Christ, he protests that he will be ashamed of us on the day of judgment. For he that shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him the Son of man shall be ashamed, when He shall come in His majesty (Luke, ix, 26). If we wish to save our souls, we must resolve to suffer, and to do violence to ourselves. How narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life (Matt. vii, 14).

The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away (Matt. xi, 12). He who does not violence to himself, will not be saved. There is no remedy. If we wish to do good, we must act in opposition to our rebellious nature. In the beginning, it is particularly necessary to do violence to ourselves in order to root out bad habits, and to acquire habits of virtue. When good habits are once acquired, the observance of the divine law becomes easy, and even sweet. Our Lord said to St. Bridget, that when in the practice of virtue a person suffers the first punctures of the thorns with patience and courage, these thorns afterwards become roses.

Be attentive, then, dearly beloved Christian, Jesus Christ now says to you, what he said to the paralytic: Behold, thou art made whole; sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee (John, v, 14). Remember, says St. Bernard, that if you have the 87 misfortune of relapsing into sin, your relapse will be more disastrous than all your falls (In Cant. s. 54). Woe, says the Lord, to them who begin to walk in the way of God, and afterward forsake it. Woe to you, apostate children (Isa. xxx, 1). Such sinners are punished as rebels against God’s light. They have been rebellious to the light (Job, xxiv, 13).

The chastisement of these rebels, who have been favored by God with a great light, and have been afterward unfaithful to him, is, to remain in blindness, and thus die in their sins. But if the just man turn himself away from his justice . . . shall he live ? All his justices which he hath done shall not be remembered; in the prevarication by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin which he hath committed, in them he shall die (Ezek. xviii, 24).

Affections and Prayers

Oh, my God! such a chastisement I have often deserved, because I have, through the light which Thou gavest me, renounced sin, and have miserably returned to it. I infinitely thank Thy mercy for not having abandoned me in my blindness by leaving me entirely destitute of light, as I deserved. Great then, O my Jesus ! are my obligations to Thee, and great should be my ingratitude, were I again to turn my back upon Thee.

No, my Redeemer, the mercies of the Lord I will sing forever. I hope that during the remainder of my life, and for all eternity, I will always sing and praise Thy mercies by loving Thee always, and never more seeing myself bereft of Thy graces. The great ingratitude with which I have hitherto treated Thee, and which I now hate and curse above every evil, will serve to make me weep bitterly over the injuries I have done Thee, and to inflame me still more with the love of Thee, who, after I had given Thee so many grievous offences, have bestowed upon me so many great graces. Yes, I love Thee, O my God ! worthy of infinite love. Henceforth Thou shall be my only love, my A 88 only good.

O eternal Father! through the merits of Jesus Christ I ask of Thee final perseverance in Thy grace and in Thy love. I know that Thou wilt grant it to me whenever I ask it. But who assures me that I shall be careful to ask this perseverance from Thee ? Hence, O my God, I ask perseverance, and the grace always to ask it of Thee.

O Mary, my advocate, my refuge, and my hope! obtain for me by thy intercession the gift of constancy in always asking of God the grace of final perseverance. Through the love which thou bearest Jesus Christ, I ask thee to obtain for me this gift.
 

J70x7

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Jun 13, 2018
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THIRD POINT

We must Struggle against the Flesh.—Recapitulation.

Let us come to the third enemy—that is, the flesh, which is the worst of all: and let us see how we must defend ourselves against its attacks. The first means is prayer: but this we have already considered. The second is, to avoid the occasion of sin; and let us now ponder well upon this means of overcoming the flesh. St. Bernardine says that the greatest of all counsels, and the one which is, as it were, the foundation of religion, is to fly from sinful occasions (T. i, s. 21, a. 3).

Being compelled by exorcisms, the devil once confessed that of all sermons, that which displeased him most was the sermon on avoiding the occasions of sin: and justly; for the devil laughs at all the resolutions and promises of penitent sinners who remain in the occasion of sin. The occasion of sins of the flesh, in particular, is like a veil placed before the eyes, which prevents the soul from seeing either its resolutions, or the lights received from God, or the truths of eternity: in a word, it makes it forget everything, and almost blinds it. The neglect of avoiding the occasions of sin was the cause of the fall of our first parents. God had forbidden them even to touch the forbidden fruit. God L 89 commanded us, said Eve, that we should not eat, and that we should not touch it (Gen. iii, 3).

But through want of caution she saw, took, and ate it. She first began to look at the apple, she afterward took it in her hand, and then ate it. He who voluntarily exposes himself to danger, will perish in it (Ecclus. iii, 27). St. Peter tells us that the devil goeth about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter, v. 8). And what, says St. Cyprian, does he do in order to enter again into the soul from which he has been expelled? (De zelo et liv.). He seeks an occasion of sin. If the soul permit him lo bring it again into the occasion of sin, he will enter again, and shall devour it.

The Abbot Guerric says that Lazarus came forth from the grave bound hand and foot, and after rising in this state, he died again. Miserable, this author means to say, is the man who rises from sin bound by the occasion of sin; though he should rise, he surely will die again. He, then, who wishes to be saved must forsake not only all sin, but the occasions of sin— that is, the companions, the house, the connections which lead to sin. But you will say: I have changed my life, and now I have no bad motive, nor even a temptation, in the society of such, a person.

I answer: it is related that in Mauritania there are bears that go in search of the apes. As soon as they see a bear, the apes save themselves by climbing up the trees: but what does the bear do? He stretches himself, as if dead, under the tree; and when the apes descend, he springs up, seizes, and devours them. It is thus the devil acts: he makes the temptations appear dead; and when the soul exposes itself to the occasions of sin, he excites the temptation, which devours it. Oh ! how many miserable souls, that practiced mental prayer, frequented Communion, and might be called saints, have, by putting themselves into dangerous occasions, become the prey of hell ?

It is related in ecclesiastical history, that a holy matron, who devoted herself to the pious work of 90 burying the martyrs, found one of them not dead. She brought him to her house: he recovered. What happened ? By the proximate occasion, these two saints, as they might be called, first lost the grace of God, and afterward lost the faith. The Lord commanded Isaias to proclaim that all flesh is grass (Isa. xl, 6). Is it possible, says St. John Chrysostom, for hay not to burn when it is thrown into the fire ? (In Ps. 1, hom. 1). And St. Cyprian says that it is impossible to stand in the midst of flames, and not be burned. (De Singul. Cler.). According to the prophet Isaias, our strength is like that of tow cast into the fire. And your strength shall be as the ashes of tow (Isa. i, 31). And Solomon says that it would be folly to expect to walk on redhot coals, without being burned. Can a man walk upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned’? (Prov. vi, 27).

Thus it is likewise folly to expose ourselves to the occasion of sin, and to expect not to fall. It is necessary then to fly from sin as from the face of a serpent. Flee from sins as from the face of a serpent (Ecclus. xxi, 2). We ought, says Gualfrido, not only to avoid the bite or contact of a serpent, but should also abstain from approaching it.

But you will say: My interest requires that I should frequent such a house, or that I should keep up a certain friendship. But if you see that such a house is for you a way to hell, there is no remedy; you must forsake it if you wish to save your soul. Her house is the way to hell (Prov. vii, 27). The Lord tells you that if your right eye is a cause of damnation to you, you must pluck it out and cast it from you (Matt. v, 29). Mark the words; you must cast it, not beside you, but to a distance from you—that is, you must take away every occasion of sin.
 

J70x7

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St. Francis of Assisi says, that the devil tempts spiritual souls, who have given themselves to God, in a way different from that in which he tempts the wicked. In the beginning he does not seek to bind them with a chain; he is content to hold them by a 91 single hair: he then binds them with a slender thread; afterward with a cord; then with a chain; and thus drags them to sin. And therefore he who wishes to be free from the danger of perdition must, in the beginning, break all these hairs, he must avoid all occasions of sins, he must give up these salutations, presents, notes, and the like.

And for those who have contracted a habit of committing sins against purity, it will not be enough to avoid proximate occasions: unless they fly even from remote occasions, they will relapse. He who sincerely wishes to be saved, must, by often repeating with the saints, Let all be lost, provided God is not lost, labor continually to strengthen and renew his resolution of never again renouncing the friendship of God.

But it is not enough to resolve never more to lose God; it is moreover necessary to adopt the means by which you may be preserved from the danger of losing him. The first means is, to avoid the occasions of sin; of this we have already spoken. The second is, to frequent the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist. In the house which is often swept there is no uncleanness. By the sacrament of penance the soul is purified; by it it obtains not only the remission of sins, but also help to resist temptations. The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2). The third means is meditation, or mental prayer.

Remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin (Ecclus. vii, 40). He who keeps before his eyes the eternal truths— 92 death, judgment, eternity—will not fall into sin. God enlightens us in meditation. Come ye to Him, and be enlightened (Ps. xxxiii, 6). In meditation God speaks to us, and makes known to us what we are to avoid, and what we are to do. I will lead her into the wilderness, and I will speak to her heart (Osee, ii, 14).

Meditation is the blessed furnace in which divine love is lighted up. In my meditation a fire shall flame out (Ps. xxxviii, 4). To preserve the soul in the grace Of God, it is, as has been already said, absolutely necessary always to pray, and to ask for the graces we stand in need of. They who do not make mental prayer, will scarcely pray for God’s graces; and by neglecting to pray for them, they will certainly be lost. It is necessary then to adopt the means of salvation, and to lead a life of order and regularity.

It is necessary, after rising in the morning, to make the Christian acts of thanksgiving, love, oblation, and a purpose of avoiding sin, along with a prayer to Jesus and Mary that they may preserve you from sin during the day: you should afterward make your meditation, and hear Mass.

During the day you ought to make a spiritual reading, visit the Blessed Sacrament and an image of the divine Mother. In the evening, say the Rosary, and make an examination of conscience. Go to Communion several times in the week, according as your director may advise: you should ordinarily go to confession to the same confessor.

It would also be very profitable to make the spiritual exercises in some religious house. It is likewise necessary to honor the Most Holy Mary by some special devotion—such as by fasting on Saturdays. She is called the Mother of perseverance, and she promises to obtain it for all who serve her. They that work by me shall not sin (Ecclus. xxiv, 30). Above all, it is necessary to ask of God holy perseverance, and especially in the time of temptation, invoking then more frequently the names of Jesus and Mary as long as the temptation continues. If you act in this manner, you will certainly be saved; if not, you will certainly be lost.

Affections and Prayers

My dear Redeemer! I thank Thee for the lights which Thou now givest me, and for the means of salvation which Thou makest known to me. I promise to endeavor to persevere in the practice of them. I see that Thou wishest for my salvation ; and I wish to be saved principally to please Thy heart, which so ardently desires my salvation.

O my God ! I will no longer resist the love which Thou entertainest for me. This love has made Thee bear me with so much patience when I offended Thee. Thou callest me to Thy love, and I desire only to love Thee. I love Thee, O infinite Goodness! I love Thee, O infinite Good ! Ah ! I entreat Thee, through the merits of Jesus Christ, not to permit me to be ever again ungrateful to Thee; either make me cease to be ungrateful to Thee, or make me cease to live.

Lord ! Thou hast already begun the work ; bring it to perfection, Confirm, O God! that which Thou hast wrought in me (Ps. lxvii, 29). Give me light, give me strength, give me love. O Mary! who art the treasurer of graces, assist me, accept me for thy servant, and pray to Jesus for me. Through the merits of Jesus Christ first, and then through thy prayers, I hope for salvation.
 
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I think you fail to realise the ramifications of putting yourself under law.

Moses said we must confirm and obey ever word. Failure to do so will cause us to be cursed.

Paul said whoever is under the law is cured Because as moses said, whoever does not obey every word is cursed

James said if we break even the least of all the commmands, we are found guilty of the whoe law.

Psalms 130: 3 the psalmists says that if the lord kept a record of our sins, Who could stand.

All of these passages (and many more) are saying that perfection is required if we want to earn or maontain our salvation. We have failed. Are failling and will fail to live up to that standard

So You can not meet that standard. Nor have I nor Can I, So saying we can not meet this standard is not excusing sin or saying it is ok to murder. it is not ok to do any sin. All sin has its ramification. but for a child of God, they also get chastened By God for their sins, so they even have it worse.

But if your going to sit there and try to maintian your salvation of keep from losing it by being good. Then the bible says you will fail. And you will not be happy with the outcome.
Has NOTHING to do with putting oneself under the law. This is the common claim of those who reject parts of the NT. They struggle to understand the scriptural difference between the written law and the law of the Spirit. People can only see one side or the other, not the whole truth. It is not a matter of meeting God's standard; we cannot and that is not in dispute. Paul said "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" Paul acknowledges he is not perfect now. But he says he strives or follows. Scripture says very clearly: "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." To be led by the Holy Spirit means you are following. We are not led of the Holy Spirit if we, through our free will, are going a different direction from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us away from sin. The Holy Spirit leads us to love others. The Holy Spirit leads us to love God. The Holy Spirit leads us to do works befitting repentance. It is the difference between living in the Spirit and living in the flesh. it is the difference between being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking with the Holy Spirit. God Bless.....
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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What too many ignore is the early elders were looking at the diverse issues going from legitimate differences of opinion to heresy and created the creeds. The creeds had 3 purposes.
1. To define what a person must believe to be a Christian.
2. Anything contrary is heresy.
3. Any Biblical issue outside of it is to agree to disagree.

The many gospel preaching denominations are proof of this. Disagreements abound. We need to be understanding about these legitimate differences of opinion. But hold the line on heresy.


So what Kept man made false doctrines and errors from CREEPING INTO THOSE CREEDS, when MANY of the men who were instrumental in forming the CREEDS did not believe in BORN AGAIN, or had a False Opinion about IT ? ? ?

Ecumenical and historic Christian creeds
Creed Date Accepted by Original name Notes Link to text

Apostles' Creed 120-250 Western Church Lat.: Symbolum Apostolorum or Symbolum Apostolicum Product of the Roman Christians around A.D. 180, who developed an early form of the Apostles' Creed, possibly to critique Marcion.
"Apostles' Creed".

Creed of Nicaea 325 Ecumenical Church Product of the first ecumenical council in Nicaea which tried to solve the Arian controversy.
"Creed of Nicaea".

Nicene Creed (Nicaea-Constantinopolitan Creed) 381 Ecumenical Church Expansion and revision of the 325 Creed of Nicaea (includes new section on Holy Spirit). It is the most widely accepted Christian creed.
It critiques apollinarism and a later addition, the Filioque clause, resulted in disagreement between Eastern Christianity and Western Christianity.
"Nicene Creed".

Chalcedonian Creed 451 Council of Chalcedon Nearly all Christian denominations (except Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church of the East, and much of Restorationism).

Athanasian Creed 500 Western Christian denominations Lat.: Quicumque vult. The origin of this creed is uncertain, but it is widely used in various Christian denominations.
"Athanasian Creed".

NONE of those were famous for teaching BORN AGAIN, and most of those were CATHOLIC in origin, OR Eastern Orthodoxy, so what prevented their particular SLANT on Scripture from Creeping in ? ? ? Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy are no more than a Hop Skip and a Jump from Catholicism. Reciting Creeds gives the people a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY, that all they have to do is recite that CREED, and they are Saved, when they have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN. No remorseful repent of sin, No LOVING Personal Relationship with JESUS, No Submission to HIM as LORD meaning Master OUT OF PURE LOVE FOR HIM, etc. Reciting the Historical events of Christ does not make you a Christian; even the DEMONS CAN DO THAT. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH CREEDS.

Mark 5:7-9 (NIV)
7 He shouted at the top of his voice,
"What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?
Swear to God that you won't torture me!"

8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"
9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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WHile I agree, It is more than just mere belief.

What it means is we have true saving faith.

What it does not mean, is we have to believe, then obey some commands and we wil be ok. This is putting us right back under law. And you better understand what that means..

Perhaps we should use the Jewish Definition of what it means to BELIEVE, along with true saving faith.

They will not say they BELIEVE in something, unless they have ABSOLUTE TRUST in what they are claiming to BELIEVE.
 
Oct 13, 2017
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I'd agree.
Except for that little word AGAIN...

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Again means that something existed BEFORE, was LOST, and then existed AGAIN.
This is simple English -- I don't know why it has to be discussed.


Also, those who believe as you do have to make up your minds if a son is a son...
If he was a son...
Then he WAS SAVED.


JESUS said the son became LOST.....
And was come to life AGAIN.
Again you ignore the Arminian view that a person can lose their salvation. Your response is the Calvinist view of OSAS.
I am a Calvinist.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Why won't you obey the Lord Jesus when He says that "if you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)
Matthew 19:17-20
17 “Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” the man asked.
And Jesus replied: “ ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely.19 Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 “I’ve obeyed all these commandments,” the young man replied. “What else must I do?”
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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i agree with your second sentence. we don't work for our salvation we work from it. but the last comment i disagree with. are you saying it is okay to murder since we are not under the law?
Where on earth did EG say that or even imply that with regards to murder?
If neither apply why ask such a question?

And as EG rightly said

People who have true faith work. It is not a matter of may work.. Faith works, read Heb 11. it does not sit idle. So ALL who are saved WILL work..
Yet you ask him such a question.

That seems the go to for those opposed to

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 
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Extinguished is to put out. David prayed that God would not take His spirit away so he knew that was a possibility. Also the one verse i am aware of which seems to indicate that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever has been rewritten inconsistent with the original Greek. John 14:16 is rendered in the KJV as "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." if we look at the underlying Greek in all manuscripts, we see the subjective mood, the mood of possibility, not certainty. Each of us must make our own decision.... God Bless
Wow, I mean really. Where do I even start?

1. No one was promised the HS in the OT. And he definately was not promised to remain, as God took it away from Saul the first king, and gave it to david. As king Of Israel. David did not wish the same fate to happen to him because of his sins

2. Jesus promised the CHURCH the HS. He was not talking about giving them as induviduals. And as with the kings of Israel. If the church turns, God will remove the light

3. We are said to be lights in the world. The HS is the power of that light. When he enters in, its like lighting a candle. When it is lit. We are drawing people to the light. When it is extibguished there is no light to draw to people ( we can;t be used by God_ But take a candle and extinguish the fire. The candle is still there We just can not see it light.

You need to study man, You are so willing to try to make yourself righteous so that God will accept you You can not see the FACT. That your righteousness is as filthy rags.

As paul told us in Titus, It is NT by works of righteousness whcih we have done, But By Gods mercy, He has saved us by the washing and rebirth of the HS.

Instread of tryign to wash yourself. Try humbling yourself and allowing God to wash you.