Not By Works

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Oct 31, 2015
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Simple truth......believe, acknowledge = saved........eternally I might add.................Jesus said it best....If you do not believe in me you WILL die in your sins........he also said....He that BELIEVES in the SON is NOT condemned......the simplicity found in Christ.....

Yes, believe means obey.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46


Here’s what the Bible says about being saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we obey the Gospel.


If Jesus is your Lord, aren’t you obligated to obey Him?



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9






JPT
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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I absolutely do acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, as do all believers. I acknowledge Jesus as Lord who came in the flesh and taught regarding eternal life. John 3:14 - As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day ... 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 11:25 - Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Trusting and believing in Jesus does not include trusting in works for salvation. (John 6:28-29; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) That's trusting in self. I've heard numerous works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's along with other misguided teachers of the law) cite Matthew 19:16-30 in their efforts to pervert the gospel and teach salvation by works.

Jesus was testing this rich young man who confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus. The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The rich young man went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

*If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we "obtain" eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Why didn't Jesus mention "keeping the commandments" IN ADDITION to believing in Him in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Why didn't Peter say, "whoever keeps the commandments" shall receive remission of sins in Acts 10:43? Instead, Peter said - .."whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Why didn't Paul mention to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30) by replying in Acts 16:31, "keep the commandments, and you will be saved?" Instead, Paul said - "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is obtaining eternal life through believing in Him/faith in Christ. *BTW nobody has "perfectly obeyed" all the commandments (except for Jesus) and the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to guard, observe, watch over and not perfectly obey. In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already have come to know Him - John 17:3) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. This is the demonstrative evidence that we have already come to know Him/are already saved.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that he did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards contracted himself by making this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

*Notice how this Roman Catholic re-defined faith to "include" works and the end result is salvation through faith + works. *Works-salvationists in general make this same error.

*In context, who was Jesus addressing here? - The Pharisees and scribes. NOT believers.

Descriptive of works-salvationists (Matthew 7:21-23)

Yes, go makes disciples, baptize converts and teach them to obey everything Jesus has commanded, which does not include teaching and seeking salvation by works.

I find it interesting that LGW (prior to getting banned from CC) quoted this scripture a lot and accused believers of failing to hears the words of Jesus and keep them, yet LGW perverted the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

I acknowledge and humbly receive the true teachings of the Lord and I also trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. I just don't trust and believe in your misinterpretation of scripture that results in works salvation.
Winner, winner Chicken dinner.........the truth is the truth.......
 
Oct 31, 2015
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AMEN to that one................it is amazing how words can be skewed......two different words, two different applications......end of story

So it’s your position we don’t need to obey the Gospel, or obey the Lord?



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



People that believe your unbiblical doctrine will be in for a rude awakening when Jesus returns.



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Winner, winner Chicken dinner.........the truth is the truth.......

Yes the truth is the truth.


Those who do not obey the truth will suffer His wrath.


Only those who obey the truth are saved.



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23




God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,





JPT
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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So it’s your position we don’t need to obey the Gospel, or obey the Lord?



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



People that believe your unbiblical doctrine will be in for a rude awakening when Jesus returns.



JPT
what is the Gospel?

believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

you yourself spelled out the definition of believe.

it does NOT mean to obey.

a Christ follower obeys BECAUSE they are a Christ follower.

not to be one.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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what is the Gospel?

believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

you yourself spelled out the definition of believe.

it does NOT mean to obey.

a Christ follower obeys BECAUSE they are a Christ follower.

not to be one.

Yes, obey the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.


Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.




JPT
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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So it’s your position we don’t need to obey the Gospel, or obey the Lord?



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



People that believe your unbiblical doctrine will be in for a rude awakening when Jesus returns.



JPT
People that come to the conclusions you come to must be about as dense as lead....especially your embellished lie in your first statement......how does lying and implying deceit about my position help your working for, false gospel of works for salvation....? You do realize that lying is not obeying right?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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People that come to the conclusions you come to must be about as dense as lead....especially your embellished lie in your first statement......how does lying and implying deceit about my position help your working for, false gospel of works for salvation....? You do realize that lying is not obeying right?

Oh so now you start with the ungodly demonic insults because the truth can’t be refuted.


Makes sense.


the truth is the truth.


Those who do not obey the truth will suffer His wrath.


Only those who obey the truth are saved.



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23




God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,





JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4



Loving God is obeying Him.





JPT
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,031
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Yes, believe means obey.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46


Here’s what the Bible says about being saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we obey the Gospel.


If Jesus is your Lord, aren’t you obligated to obey Him?



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9






JPT
Maybe you should go back to school and learn definitions all over again....conflating truth = lie <--------you are very good at this

be·lieve
/bəˈlēv/
verb
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
synonyms:be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful More

hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
synonyms:think, be of the opinion that, think it likely that, have an idea that, imagine, feel, have a feeling, hold, maintain, suspect, suppose, assume, presume, conjecture, surmise, postulate that, theorize that, conclude, come to the conclusion that, deduce; More

o·bey
/əˈbā,ōˈbā/
verb
comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of.
"I always obey my father"
synonyms:do what someone says, take/accept orders from, carry out/follow the orders of, be dutiful to, heed; Morecarry out (a command or instruction).
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey orders"
synonyms:carry out, perform, act on, execute, discharge, put into effect, implement, fulfill, meet
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey an order"
behave in accordance with (a general principle, natural law, etc.).
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,031
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what is the Gospel?

believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

you yourself spelled out the definition of believe.

it does NOT mean to obey.

a Christ follower obeys BECAUSE they are a Christ follower.

not to be one.
I wonder how that word is spelled....

Belbey or Obieve

Definition
The conflation of believe and obey into one big quagmire of fallacy that will not bear out for those who think they earn or keep their salvation through some legalistic command keeping drivel.........
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Are all of you still working this topic out? lol :cool:
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Maybe you should go back to school and learn definitions all over again....conflating truth = lie <--------you are very good at this

be·lieve
/bəˈlēv/
verb
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
synonyms:be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful More

hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
synonyms:think, be of the opinion that, think it likely that, have an idea that, imagine, feel, have a feeling, hold, maintain, suspect, suppose, assume, presume, conjecture, surmise, postulate that, theorize that, conclude, come to the conclusion that, deduce; More

o·bey
/əˈbā,ōˈbā/
verb
comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of.
"I always obey my father"
synonyms:do what someone says, take/accept orders from, carry out/follow the orders of, be dutiful to, heed; Morecarry out (a command or instruction).
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey orders"
synonyms:carry out, perform, act on, execute, discharge, put into effect, implement, fulfill, meet
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey an order"
behave in accordance with (a general principle, natural law, etc.).


Maybe you should read the scriptures rather than commentary to understand what the words mean.



The Bible is its own best interpreter, in that the scriptures themselves define for us in some cases what a word or phrase means, either by context or by direct definition.


  • He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


  • He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB





Contextually we must allow the scriptures to define for us the Authors intent and use of a word to convey His meaning to us.


Here is an example of a biblical definition -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Here is the definition of faith according to the Strongs -

Faith pistis. Strongs 4102 - Noun


I. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
A. relating to God
i. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
B. relating to Christ
i. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
C. the religious beliefs of Christians
D. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
II. fidelity, faithfulness
A. the character of one who can be relied on



The Point: Bible dictionary’s, lexicons, and study guides are a good place to start, but are not necessarily the final say on how a biblical word is defined.


Believe: - pisteuō Strongs # G4100 - verb


The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe(239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).


I. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
A. of the thing believed
i. to credit, have confidence
B. in a moral or religious reference
i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
II. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
A. to be intrusted with a thing



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



It is noteworthy to understand that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably in the Bible based on translation.


Example: Unbelief - Disobedience



Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.

Believe - Trust, commit, obey




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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I wonder how that word is spelled....

Belbey or Obieve

Definition
The conflation of believe and obey into one big quagmire of fallacy that will not bear out for those who think they earn or keep their salvation through some legalistic command keeping drivel.........

So tells us, are we to believe the Lord, but not obey Him?


Is that what you teach your family, your children?



JPT
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
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Are all of you still working this topic out? lol :cool:
we always try to work out our salvation

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12;
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,028
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I wonder how that word is spelled....

Belbey or Obieve

Definition
The conflation of believe and obey into one big quagmire of fallacy that will not bear out for those who think they earn or keep their salvation through some legalistic command keeping drivel.........
some people refuse to put themselves under the authority of Scripture, instead they give themselves authority over Scripture, and make it say what they want, instead of accepting what it says, and means.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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FOLKS, the following is a prime example of how deceivers like JUSTPASSINGTHROUGH will twist words to say something the text is not saying to peddle the drivel of a salvation based upon some legalistic command keeping or working for drivel.......the word TRANSLATED OBEY in the KING JAMES is the Greek word hupakouo and means to LISTEN TO, ATTEND TO or HEARKEN TO and the implication is clear....those who DO NOT KNOW GOD because the have NOT LISTENED and HEARKENED unto the GOSPEL of JESUS will pay the price in the VENGEANCE of GOD.

THE GOSPEL IS........BELIEVE on the SON (his death, burial and resurrection for your SIN) and YOU WILL be SAVED from WRATH through HIM.

DO NOT buy the deception that comes from the people that turn BELIEF into some sort of command keeping, law keeping, self saving working for DRIVEL that will not save a man......Believe the GOSPEL by FAITH..............that is what saves a man or woman!

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Strong's Concordance
hupakouó: to listen, attend to
Original Word: ὑπακούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupakouó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-oo'-o)
Definition: to listen, attend to, hearken
Usage: I listen, hearken to, obey, answer.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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some people refuse to put themselves under the authority of Scripture, instead they give themselves authority over Scripture, and make it say what they want, instead of accepting what it says, and means.

Those who do not obey the Lord, do not love Him, and do not know Him.



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4



Loving God is obeying Him.





JPT
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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People that come to the conclusions you come to must be about as dense as lead....especially your embellished lie in your first statement......how does lying and implying deceit about my position help your working for, false gospel of works for salvation....? You do realize that lying is not obeying right?
Amen! I have explained what "obey the gospel" means to JPT numerous times before, yet he continues to write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill in whatever amount of works that he feels is necessary to be saved, then he confuses that with believing the gospel.

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16)

*Refusing to obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the gospel.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *We obey the gospel by choosing to believe by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (y)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,031
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some people refuse to put themselves under the authority of Scripture, instead they give themselves authority over Scripture, and make it say what they want, instead of accepting what it says, and means.
AMEN...the word does not even mean obey......he is just another deceiver and exactly why I rarely engage him.....I made the mistake of looking at ignored content......good thing I guess........a post to combat his deception......