Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Addendum. Nice to meet you too. And thank you for the kind words
Hi again Macabeus, I think you will meet many nice people on this thread, why?, because the gospel of Jesus Christ is not so difficult to understand. I believe the Holy Spirit can navigate through most of the bad theology that comes through this thread if only we would be honest enough to search for the truth and not what tickles our ears or feeds our biased ego's.

I'm just a regular guy who Loves Jesus and we use to be called "Jesus freaks" in the early 1970's...

God bless and thanks for your reply.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
8,908
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Yes, but some people think you can be reconciled to God and yet continue to live like God's enemy and still be saved. Do you believe this? I don't.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

My beef is with people who say "it doesnt matter what you do after you are saved, you are saved no matter what". I'm sorry, but my bible says "by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commands"

Am I supposed to base my theology on words like these, or on the fact that so many Christians are inconsistent in their walk (ie basing my theology on EXPERIENCE)[/QUOTE
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of course hub and don't believe this, because we know that it is simply 'untrue'...
New LOVE = New Life...
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes, but some people think you can be reconciled to God and yet continue to live like God's enemy and still be saved. Do you believe this? I don't.
Is salvation a free gift to you?

If you choose to offer something for free to anyone, do you ever attach conditions like, "In order for you to keep this free gift, you must do X, Y and Z after you accept it?"

How would any potential recipient of your gift reply to you?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
6,683
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You will not overcome the world and obtain a crown of life by a mental activity, I think you should know that also a mental activity could be without faith or faith without work.
I understand there is a salvation that applies to the whole world, that everyone will receive according to his works you don't have to believe for this. Believe is "Faith that works by Love." and Love is the Holy Spirit. I left arguing here and maybe should leave altogether. if you all stop replying I will not have a reason to be here. as for why believe involves Faith, "I believe Lord help my Unbelief." 'Whatever is not of Faith is sin." its because of sin that we have unbelief and that we have no Faith. Everything we have is a gift, according to obedience of Faith.
stay. go. whatever.

words have definitions. if you and others reject the meaning of words, and just make up your own, then you are creating your own reality.

and you certainly will not overcome the world by using the " my opinion is more important than facts.

that is 100% a worldly attitude.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,265
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Yes, but some people think you can be reconciled to God and yet continue to live like God's enemy and still be saved. Do you believe this? I don't.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

My beef is with people who say "it doesnt matter what you do after you are saved, you are saved no matter what". I'm sorry, but my bible says "by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commands"

Am I supposed to base my theology on words like these, or on the fact that so many Christians are inconsistent in their walk (ie basing my theology on EXPERIENCE)

I have met very few People that understand the OSAS position the way you have said. "it doesn't matter what you do after you are saved, you are saved no matter what".

AND THOSE WHO DO, ARE ONLY REPELLING AGAINST THE ARMENIAN LIE, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT BORN AGAIN.

Most PEOPLE who are SERIOUS about believing OSAS, explain it the same way I DO.

OSAS means YOU DO NOT BELIEVE that true Obedience is NOT CONNECTED TO SALVATION,
HOWEVER, Obedience IS PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, and spawns out of GOD's LOVE that the HOLY SPIRIT Poured into our HEARTS, the moment HE BIRTHED our Human Spirit into Eternal Life.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


John 14:15 (HCSB)

15 “If you love Me [you are SAVED OSAS, and then HE tells us that we WILL strive to KEEP HIS COMMANDS AFTERWARDS] you will keep My commands.


They believe the LIE about OSAS, because it pumps up their ANGER towards other Christians that say the believe in OSAS. OH HOW THEY LOVE TO HATE EVERYONE THAT MENTIONS THE TERM OSAS. Now What kind of FRUIT is HATRED?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
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Is salvation a free gift to you?

If you choose to offer something for free to anyone, do you ever attach conditions like, "In order for you to keep this free gift, you must do X, Y and Z after you accept it?"

How would any potential recipient of your gift reply to you?
This is a po
Is salvation a free gift to you?

If you choose to offer something for free to anyone, do you ever attach conditions like, "In order for you to keep this free gift, you must do X, Y and Z after you accept it?"

How would any potential recipient of your gift reply to you?
Salvation is a free gift...and it is salvation from sin, not to sin, and it is salvation to serve, not salvation to self serve.

Salvation is a many faceted diamond. You choose to only look at one facet. But there are other facets. Freedom, obedience, repentance, love, fruit, purpose, sanctification, good works, etc. ARE NOT CONDITIONS.
THEY ARE PART OF THE GIFT. DO YOU REALLY THINK or do you think that I think that we are giving something to God with our good works? Like our good works BENEFIT Him?!! WE HAVE NOTHING THAT WE DID NOT RECEIVE. Even our good works are HIS WORK. The problem with some of you is you don't know the difference between a gift of grace and a condition, or the difference between a free gift and a meritorious work

Repentance is not a work, it is gift.

Faith is not a work, it is a gift.

Bearing fruit is not a work, this is love, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not heavy

Righteousness is not a work, it is a gift

Holiness is not a work, it is a gift;

Bearing fruit is not our work, it is God's work IN US.

Good works are not meritorious, they are gifts. Ephesians 2:10 We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, WHICH GOD HATH

I'm sorry, but our starting points are different in that I realize that we don't have anything to give to God that He needs and He gives to us everything that we need. And that includes the power to live victoriously.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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IN summary, the difference between what I am saying and what some others are saying is this...

Some see Good works and obedience as something that we possess that we offer to God as a gift.

I see it as a gift that God gives to us. WE have nothing good that we did not receive from Him, and it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

When we do right, we are not meriting ANYTHING. We as stewards are merely giving the MASTER OF THE HOUSE back what is rightfully His. What is all this nonsense and drivel about MERITORIOUS WORKS. Or Conditions of salvation? What you call conditions for a gift, I call PART OF THE GIFT ITSELF. Away with all man centered doctrines.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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I have met very few People that understand the OSAS position the way you have said. "it doesn't matter what you do after you are saved, you are saved no matter what".

AND THOSE WHO DO, ARE ONLY REPELLING AGAINST THE ARMENIAN LIE, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT BORN AGAIN.

Most PEOPLE who are SERIOUS about believing OSAS, explain it the same way I DO.

OSAS means YOU DO NOT BELIEVE that true Obedience is NOT CONNECTED TO SALVATION,
HOWEVER, Obedience IS PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, and spawns out of GOD's LOVE that the HOLY SPIRIT Poured into our HEARTS, the moment HE BIRTHED our Human Spirit into Eternal Life.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


John 14:15 (HCSB)

15 “If you love Me [you are SAVED OSAS, and then HE tells us that we WILL strive to KEEP HIS COMMANDS AFTERWARDS] you will keep My commands.


They believe the LIE about OSAS, because it pumps up their ANGER towards other Christians that say the believe in OSAS. OH HOW THEY LOVE TO HATE EVERYONE THAT MENTIONS THE TERM OSAS. Now What kind of FRUIT is HATRED?
I would agree with your post for the most part, with a couple of thoughts...

a. Believe it or not, there are Arminians who believe in eternal security. They are basically four point or three point Arminians

b. There are many who pervert any good doctrine, and there are those who pervert Perserverance of the saints, which term I prefer to OSAS. The one's who pervert the doctrine of perserverance make it difficult for the resto of us.

c. I believe and agree with your views on the relationship between works and salvation, except I go farther in believing that good works and obedience to God are not only things we offer Him in love, they are also PART OF THE GIFT ITSELF. It riles my feathers to hear people talk about people who emphasize the practical aspect of Christianity and call them works salvationists. TRUE, some pervert the wholesome doctrine of Good works, and try to make them meritorious, but the wise know that WE HAVE NO GOOD THING THAT WAS NOT GIVEN TO US FREELY BY GOD>


I CONSIDER IT A PRIVELIDGE TO SERVE GOD, NOT SOME BURDENSOME DUTY I HAVE TO DO TO EARN BROWNIE BADGES. THE VERY THOUGHT OF SUCH A MINDSET IS APPALLING TO ME, EITHER THOSE WHO OPERATE THAT WAY OR THOSE WHO THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SAYING. IT"S DOWNRIGHT SHAMEFUL THAT SOME WOULD TAKE OUR JOYFUL PRIVELIDGE AND JOY IN SERVING GOD AND USE THAT TO CALL US PEDDLERS OF FALSE DOCTRINE.

Of course, I only speak of those who know that salvation is free and that grace is sufficient, and that every good thing comes down from the Father of Lights in whom is no variableness or shadow of turning.

Blessings.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Jesus gave Himself to redeem unto Himself a people zealous of good works. No good works do not save us, but they are part of God's intention in redeeming us. Why? TO bring glory to us or to earn salvation? No, but to HIS GLORY and HIS PRAISE.

I don't consider serving God as a chore any more that I consider cuddling with my wife or spending time with my children, or hugging my grandchildren a chore.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
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Hi again Macabeus, I think you will meet many nice people on this thread, why?, because the gospel of Jesus Christ is not so difficult to understand. I believe the Holy Spirit can navigate through most of the bad theology that comes through this thread if only we would be honest enough to search for the truth and not what tickles our ears or feeds our biased ego's.

I'm just a regular guy who Loves Jesus and we use to be called "Jesus freaks" in the early 1970's...

God bless and thanks for your reply.
Love the seventies and love Jesus freaks, so you have my heart.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
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This is a po


Salvation is a free gift...and it is salvation from sin, not to sin, and it is salvation to serve, not salvation to self serve.

Salvation is a many faceted diamond. You choose to only look at one facet. But there are other facets. Freedom, obedience, repentance, love, fruit, purpose, sanctification, good works, etc. ARE NOT CONDITIONS.
THEY ARE PART OF THE GIFT. DO YOU REALLY THINK or do you think that I think that we are giving something to God with our good works? Like our good works BENEFIT Him?!! WE HAVE NOTHING THAT WE DID NOT RECEIVE. Even our good works are HIS WORK. The problem with some of you is you don't know the difference between a gift of grace and a condition, or the difference between a free gift and a meritorious work

Repentance is not a work, it is gift.

Faith is not a work, it is a gift.

Bearing fruit is not a work, this is love, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not heavy

Righteousness is not a work, it is a gift

Holiness is not a work, it is a gift;

Bearing fruit is not our work, it is God's work IN US.

Good works are not meritorious, they are gifts. Ephesians 2:10 We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, WHICH GOD HATH

I'm sorry, but our starting points are different in that I realize that we don't have anything to give to God that He needs and He gives to us everything that we need. And that includes the power to live victoriously.
I apologize that I came off a little strong in this one. It was a gut reaction to the idea of thinking

a. anything we do as being somehow meritorious of grace BLECH or

b. that by teaching that "Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem unto Himself a people ZEALOUS of good works" we were somehow putting ourselves under the Law, peddling a works salvation, or mixing faith and works. Preposterous.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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As I read this morning I see the same old lie spewed by the salvation losers and or maintainers......that those who believe in eternal security believe that we can live any way we want...
I will assume that you are not referring to me. Because if you were, I would say that I said that those who believe in EASY BELIEVISM (not eternal security) teach that a person can live any way they want and STILL BE SAVED.

Calvinists believe in eternal security, but they in the vast majority do not believe you can live any way you want. Also, some Arminians believe in eternal security, and they don't believe you can live any way you want.



I believe in the Perserverance of the Saints, and I said so many times.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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OSAS may or may not (dependant on the person) say that a person will be saved WHETHER OR NOT THEY PERSERVERE. In other words, some OSAS believe that even if you do not continue in faith, you will still be saved as long as at some point you believed the Gospel. I heard more than once right here on these forums, that if you believe for just a moment, you will be saved no matter what.

Perserverance of the Saints teaches that those who are truly saved WILL PERSERVERE BY THE GRACE OF GOD PERIOD. They may stumble, fall , lapse, backslide, etc. due to carelessness, lack of diligence, confidence in the flesh, etc, but God WILL chasten them, go after them, even break their legs if He has to and bring them back.

But there are many who make professions of faith, but experience no repentance, no new birth, no sanctifying grace. These are like the people who one moment believed in Jesus and the next were ready to stone Him.

Saving faith does not disappear like a vapor.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,265
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I would agree with your post for the most part, with a couple of thoughts...

a. Believe it or not, there are Arminians who believe in eternal security. They are basically four point or three point Arminians

b. There are many who pervert any good doctrine, and there are those who pervert Perserverance of the saints, which term I prefer to OSAS. The one's who pervert the doctrine of perserverance make it difficult for the resto of us.

c. I believe and agree with your views on the relationship between works and salvation, except I go farther in believing that good works and obedience to God are not only things we offer Him in love, they are also PART OF THE GIFT ITSELF. It riles my feathers to hear people talk about people who emphasize the practical aspect of Christianity and call them works salvationists. TRUE, some pervert the wholesome doctrine of Good works, and try to make them meritorious, but the wise know that WE HAVE NO GOOD THING THAT WAS NOT GIVEN TO US FREELY BY GOD>


I CONSIDER IT A PRIVELIDGE TO SERVE GOD, NOT SOME BURDENSOME DUTY I HAVE TO DO TO EARN BROWNIE BADGES. THE VERY THOUGHT OF SUCH A MINDSET IS APPALLING TO ME, EITHER THOSE WHO OPERATE THAT WAY OR THOSE WHO THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SAYING. IT"S DOWNRIGHT SHAMEFUL THAT SOME WOULD TAKE OUR JOYFUL PRIVELIDGE AND JOY IN SERVING GOD AND USE THAT TO CALL US PEDDLERS OF FALSE DOCTRINE.

Of course, I only speak of those who know that salvation is free and that grace is sufficient, and that every good thing comes down from the Father of Lights in whom is no variableness or shadow of turning.

Blessings.

We had one a while back that SPEWED HATRED towards any one the even mention OSAS. Finally I had to ask him: "Now it is my turn to ask you a question. Where is your LOVE, we cannot see it ? ? ?" He never did answer the question.

I agree with your statement that it is a Privilege to Serve the LORD. I was watching a YouTube video, of the major revival going on in China, in secret Places. They have to meet in barns, caves, hidden basements, etc. Their services last at least 4 hours, one church they meet 8 hours, and all of the are having standing room only, and yes I cried all the way through that video.

 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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I see it as a gift that God gives to us. WE have nothing good that we did not receive from Him, and it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
As long as you recognize that it is all about what God has done for us, and not what we will do for him, I am fine. :)
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Yes, I have heard great things happening in china. Don't have a chance to watch the vid now but will watch it later. I wouldn't be surprised if (if the Lord tarries), China and other nations be the missionaries to the US and other Western countries.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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We had one a while back that SPEWED HATRED towards any one the even mention OSAS. Finally I had to ask him: "Now it is my turn to ask you a question. Where is your LOVE, we cannot see it ? ? ?" He never did answer the question.

I agree with your statement that it is a Privilege to Serve the LORD. I was watching a YouTube video, of the major revival going on in China, in secret Places. They have to meet in barns, caves, hidden basements, etc. Their services last at least 4 hours, one church they meet 8 hours, and all of the are having standing room only, and yes I cried all the way through that video.


Yes I know many are Pentecostal Churches, but they can be used to by the LORD.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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As long as you recognize that it is all about what God has done for us, and not what we will do for him, I am fine. :)
Yes, it is all about Him. And it is Him who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Like telling others about Him. Sharing the Gospel. It is a joy. It is not a duty or a work. Reading His Word, before I was born again, it was like "got to get my quota in", now I starve for His Word. That is what I'm talking about. HE makes us hunger for Him and for His Righteousness.

But I do know that if I get too full of the world or myself, the hunger for Him diminishes. Like when you eat too much candy before dinner when you were a child. We need to STAY HUNGRY. And by His Grace, we will.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Yes I know many are Pentecostal Churches, but they can be used to by the LORD.
Absolutely. I have known many dear saints from the Pentecostal movement, though I am not a pentecostal myself. It's not the name above the door, it's the name on the heart...and as far as doctrinal distinctives, if we agree on ESSENTIALS, we have fellowship. I have been blessed by Christians of MANY different types, but they all loved Jesus.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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stay. go. whatever.

words have definitions. if you and others reject the meaning of words, and just make up your own, then you are creating your own reality.

and you certainly will not overcome the world by using the " my opinion is more important than facts.

that is 100% a worldly attitude.
your quoting me here: that you will not overcome by your understanding of words, take your own advice, in your own words. The languages were confused purposly so we would not attain unity until we walk in the Holy Spirit and obviously remain so until we are full of the Holy Spirit walking in Love.