Not By Works

[unclesilas]

Do you know what the act of circumcision was to accomplish?(Genesis 17:10)

When asked what to do to be saved what was the response of Peter?(Acts 2:38,39)

How was Paul saved?(Acts 9:17,18)

How was Cornelius saved?(Acts 10:34-48)




I am not sure I understand what you are saying but If you have read all my posts you will not see me "grab one verse of scripture and bring it into contradiction with multiple scriptures that oppose your understanding of the one verse". I have in the posts and studies produced reconciled all the scriptures which may seem contradictory





You contend that the faith was not real because it produces no suitable works.I contend that as James writes the real faith is dead since it produces no works and hence it cannot save. Again I ask;do you understand what is meant by,"not under law"?

Not under the law is not under righteousness of obeying it, or not under its condemnation if you like

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here is my post in its context showing who has eternal life straight from the bible

lets look at who does has eternal life


Jesus answers, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" (John 8:51).

Paul replies that God "will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Rom. 2:6-7).

btw: i didnt write these verses..........i'm only quoting them

The writer to the Hebrews states that Christ is "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (5:9).

John adds: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (I John 2:24-25).

if.....shall continue in the son...........dont miss it please

This is an impressive array of clear-cut, unambiguous answers. Who has and shall have eternal life?

Those who keep Christ's sayings; those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality; those who obey the Lord; and those who continue in the Son and in the Father. None other need apply.

These are descriptive passages, they describe who, not how

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Word count bazillion, yay for scroll, lol

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? " abraham believed God , and it was credited to him as righteousness ." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: " blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven , and whose sins have been covered . " blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Romans 4:2‭-‬8 NASB

There are so many verses that I want to share. I keep coming back here because this topic fascinates me. I can see both sides, and that is why I think we can find some harmony in Jeremiah 32:40-41…

I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
Jeremiah 32:40-41

He wants us to be intentional, to know He made us and He sure as heck can and will rain down what seems like hell on earth if we don't get in line. Same as a father does with His Children.

But wait, then we read this…

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1 John 4:18 NASB


And then this…

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1 Corinthians 7:1

And…

His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling. I rejoice that in everything I have confidence in you.
2 Corinthians 7:15‭-‬16 NASB


Could it be that yes fear, reverential fear, is good? He placed it in our hearts to help us but the kind of fear that harms our walk, the kind that MAKES us love Him, is a conflict of His interest. He wants our love, not so we can get out of trouble or gain reward. He wants our bond-servitude, one that chooses to surrender because we love Him, because believing draws us to our knees, and softens our hearts so that His Love and Glory can fill our lives with Him.

I think we, myself included, get hung up on making sure we are secure. After all, there are many ifs and thens throughout the word. However, we must remember He wants us to lean in and on His promises because we trust that He really, really loves us and yearns for our undivided devotion. Yes, He wants our confidence to be filled with great reverence and sensitivity to His work within, that we may work out that salvation, not so we are paralyzed in fear of losing it. We must hold tight to His promises, so we have the strength to walk in them.

I keep quoting this next one because it reminds me that He is for me, that He has my best interest at heart enough Not to leave it up to me alone.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB


I believe we need to remember that He loves us. The thieve doesn't; he wants us with Marty Feldman eyes, frozen in fear, so we become unusable.

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
John 10:10 NASB


Let's remember who He is…Good, beyond our full comprehension. Let us also remember that what He wants us to OBEY (is that a work, btw?) is for our own good, not to harm us, but to help us. I would never ever want to take away the importance of them. Therefore, let's finish the race, that He promises He will help us do. He is the author and finisher, because He loves us that MUCH!!! If we could do it on our own, His sacrifice would be in vain. With Him all things are possible.

My heart is fixed on You Lord. You are so beautiful. With You, I am blessed beyond measure.

I apologize to my Lord and Brothers and Sisters if my input brought any confusion. I think we all agree it is so important to find the truth in all the scripture, by reading it in its entirety, not a verse here, and a verse there. I realize that is what brings confusion, why He has given us all thr scripture. I have so so much still to study. Honestly, though, I think we need His help to find HIS unwavering truth. I think the harmony found is in ONLY Him!!

His Peace surpasses ALL understanding.

I agree 100%.
We are loved and drawn to God through Jesus, secure into eternity.

The other side is those who appear to come to faith, and lose it through one of many issues.
Or false teachers who seem sound and then go way off.

Does it matter that we know who is called and who is not?
Did Jesus treat Judas any differently from the other disciples?

Love loves all, despite what resides within. It is hard to see, but Jesus died for us and calls us
to follow His example, showing love and dying for others. It is hard for us to comprehend let
alone walk, yet that is His calling to our hearts. It is about carrying our cross daily.

 

[stonesoffire]

Faith only doesn't work S,
Jesus said we need love.
Mathew 22:37-39
We have to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul repeated this.
1 Corinthians 13:1
Paul tells us that no matter what gift he may have...if he does not have love, he's like a clanging cymbal. (just making a lot of noise).

So if both Jesus and Paul said we also need love,,,,how could only faith be enough for salvation?

The N.T. teaches us that we need:
FAITH
HOPE
LOVE (charity)

Rom 5:2　 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace by which we have been established, and we boast because of our hope in God's glory.


Rom 5:3　 Not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,


Rom 5:4　 endurance produces character, and character produces hope.


Rom 5:5　 Now this hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Everything is given to us to overcome. The answer to all this is to be filled with Holy Spirit. Make this the goal. Not works.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Faith only doesn't work S,
Jesus said we need love.
Mathew 22:37-39
We have to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul repeated this.
1 Corinthians 13:1
Paul tells us that no matter what gift he may have...if he does not have love, he's like a clanging cymbal. (just making a lot of noise).

So if both Jesus and Paul said we also need love,,,,how could only faith be enough for salvation?

The N.T. teaches us that we need:
FAITH
HOPE
LOVE (charity)

Can faith be faith in Jesus without love?
John did not believe so. He stated to claim to know God and not love, makes one a liar.

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:20

 

[CharliRenee]

I agree 100%.
We are loved and drawn to God through Jesus, secure into eternity.

The other side is those who appear to come to faith, and lose it through one of many issues.
Or false teachers who seem sound and then go way off.

Does it matter that we know who is called and who is not?
Did Jesus treat Judas any differently from the other disciples?

Love loves all, despite what resides within. It is hard to see, but Jesus died for us and calls us
to follow His example, showing love and dying for others. It is hard for us to comprehend let
alone walk, yet that is His calling to our hearts. It is about carrying our cross daily.

True, it is hard, so hard, especially when we STRIVE on our own. We need His yolk, which is light. Performance anxiety is not where He wants us or what His calling is about. He set us free. We need His help. He gets us where we need to be inside and out, because WITH HIM, all things are possible.

I have set the Lord continually before me; Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will dwell securely.
Psalms 16:8‭-‬9 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.16.8-9.NASB

We faith it until He makes it. I don't always love as I am called, but by believing He will help grow my softened heart's sincere capacity to love, inside and out, I am hopeful. I am transformed by the blood of the lamb.

 

[stonesoffire]

Just concentrate on the greatest theologian of them all who dwells in all Christians, more important to focus on him, than which particular reputable translation you read

Jesus said this to me when I began to study. "If you seek to see me in all that you do...you will do well. " Then two prophetic words came from two different prophets who neither knew me.

That I was given to know the desert of the Word. Some like plain toast. Much more to this but am sure you get the gist of it.

The white robe and white stone are important to know. Walk close....

 

[unclesilas]

Jesus said this to me when I began to study. "If you seek to see me in all that you do...you will do well. " Then two prophetic words came from two different prophets who neither knew me.

That I was given to know the desert of the Word. Some like plain toast. Much more to this but am sure you get the gist of it.

The white robe and white stone are important to know. Walk close....

Doesn't the meat come before the desert?

 

[gb9]

Can you not answer the two questions?

maybe you should answer the question posed to you before you mention other's ( supposedly ) not answering your questions

 

[unclesilas]

maybe you should answer the question posed to you before you mention other's ( supposedly ) not answering your questions

Its amazing really, we have experts in the greek on the site who read concordances yet none of them have answered the questions. Not sure what you are referring to

 

[lightbearer]

Amen!

Real Faith comes from GOD through Christ.

It is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the LIFE we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH of Christ. For we have put on Christ. (Gal 2:20,3:22)


But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

And notice what was the proof that Israel as a whole did not believe/have faith:

"But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."(Romans 10:21)

Why?
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

What is this Faith in which Paul preaches?


Real Faith comes from GOD through Christ as Romans 10 reveals.



But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word (commandments) in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (the word (commandments) on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)

You are going in circles.I don't care to join.

Show the error in relation to chapter 9 and 10 of Romans and I will recant.

 

[safswan]

The truth is already evident to me apart from your questions. I have considered the context and I also properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

This is not evident in your contributions thus far.But if you think so then continue in the illusion.

Unlike you, I don't ignore what the translations plainly say and teach. The use of Abraham as an example of someone who has real faith, as we see in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) is in CONTRAST to those who merely "say-claim" they have faith, but instead, have an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14)

This the mistake many of you make.It is not a contrast.James uses the fact of Abraham to support his theory previously stated in the passage.

"Faith without works is dead." (James 2:20) It's not an assumption. It's a fact. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not real faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

Another error.Dead faith does not mean not real.It means the faith is of no use because it has no works with it as James clearly says:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."(James 2:17)

And so of Abraham it says:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

I have looked at what the passage says numerous times. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

The "that faith" relates to a dead faith which James says is so because it is devoid of works.He did not say it was not real faith.Read it again:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

He never said anything about a false faith he speaks of a faith devoid of works.He supports this statement with the example he gives:

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

The "that faith" is in reference to a brother and their interaction with another brother.This refers to real faith but you presumptuously claim they do not have real faith.Again since all of this is supported by the example of Abraham who had real faith I can come to no other conclusion than that which accepts "that faith" as real but dead being devoid of the appropriate works.

Just as I suspected. You teach salvation by faith + works. You interpret James to be saying that this hypothetical person in James 2:14 actually has real faith (in spite of the fact that we read "says-claims" to have faith) then go on to conclude that this real faith cannot save until it produces works and man is saved by faith AND works, which is absolutely false.

Your erroneous interpretation is not supported by the contents of the passage.As I said above the examples given to support the theory point to a faith that is real.Read the studies "Justification" (post #82364) and "Iniquity,Faith and Charity",(post #84145,84149) to see what I believe the scriptures teach about salvation and the place of faith and works.

Faith without works is dead. Dead is the opposite of alive. Those who truly believe go on to demonstrate it by works. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Someone who merely claims or professes to have faith, yet produces no works at all does not truly have faith, but has an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Just as we read in Titus 1:16 of those who merely "profess" to know God, but in works deny Him. No good works are produced from that empty profession which demonstrates that such a profession is without possession.

Similar to the OSAS deception.If one is seen to backslide and turn from God then they were not truly saved.So it is,those who truly believe will produce works,because they are saved.those who don't really believe will not produce the works because they are not saved.Really convenient for your theory but not consistent with the teaching of scripture and the proper understanding of James.James is not about false faith but about real faith which produces no works and hence is dead.Abraham is the proof for this interpretation.

You sound really confused. Says-claims to have faith, but has no works, is not the same thing as actually does have faith, like Abraham who was shown to be righteous by his works. I teach that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I'm not the one who is teaching we are saved by faith + works.

You are the one that is confused.You are responding to your own statement not mine.I wrote:

"You also wrote:

“"Says-claims" to have faith is not the same thing as saying actually does have authentic faith like Abraham. So you disregard "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14 and instead, modify it to mean "actually does have faith" but produces no works? It sounds to me like you teach salvation by works.”"

The evidence is produced for all to see, including God, yet God already knows the condition of our hearts before we produce any works upon initially placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We are justified/accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) and shown to be righteous before God and man (James 2:21-24). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit (evidence) at all demonstrates there is no root (faith). To say that someone truly believes/has genuine faith, but produce no works at all is an OXYMORON.

No it is not for man since man cannot justify other men.This is very clear from scripture and you only say otherwise to support your views.When James says "see", "seest", he is actually asking "do you understand". It seems you did not understand this and is thinking he is asking us to look with the eyes.

 

[gb9]

Its amazing really, we have experts in the greek on the site who read concordances yet none of them have answered the questions. Not sure what you are referring to

was Jesus fully God? that question that you never answered.

 

[stonesoffire]

Paul replies that God "will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory (white robe) and honour ( white stone, new spiritual name that is given) and immortality, (the fulness; one with God) Enoch eternal life" (Rom. 2:6-7).

Doesn't the meat come before the desert?

You eat what you are given at the table of the Lord. Don't be a smart mouth now.

How many do you believe have obtained immortality? The mortal changed to immortal?

 

[unclesilas]

was Jesus fully God? that question that you never answered.

That was a rather silly question to ask in relation to what was put to him. I pointed out some have a trinity of Father, Son and the bible. They rely on their little grey cells to learn rather than the Holy Spirit so he replied as he did. Though if you believe questions should firstly be answered, a couple of days ago I asked him to do an exegesis for me and he refused, so he should be responding to my request first. Why not start a thread on Trinity if you want to discuss it, this one is not by works

 

[gb9]

That ewas a rather silly question to ask in relation to what was put to him. I pointed out some have a trinity of Father, Son and the bible. They rely on their little grey cells to learn rather than the Holy Spirit so he replied as he did. Though if you believe questions should firstly be answered, a couple of days ago I asked him to do an exegesis for me and he refused. Why not start a thread on Trinity if you want to discuss it, this one is about faith and works

you certainly do not want to answer this question . I am starting to get an idea of the answer the more you refuse to answer.

 

[unclesilas]

you certainly do not want to answer this question . I am starting to get an idea of the answer the more you refuse to answer.

You are quite welcome to get any idea you want. If this subject interests you, why do you not answer the two questions.

 

[stonesoffire]

That was a rather silly question to ask in relation to what was put to him. I pointed out some have a trinity of Father, Son and the bible. They rely on their little grey cells to learn rather than the Holy Spirit so he replied as he did. Though if you believe questions should firstly be answered, a couple of days ago I asked him to do an exegesis for me and he refused, so he should be responding to my request first. Why not start a thread on Trinity if you want to discuss it, this one is not by works

There is revelation that comes from Holy Spirit so for you to state that what's revealed of the Word comes from grey cells, is untrue. Unless it's revealed from heaven, it's just words on paper.

 

[unclesilas]

There is revelation that comes from Holy Spirit so for you to state that what's revealed of the Word comes from grey cells, is untrue. Unless it's revealed from heaven, it's just words on paper.

Please read it again

 

[stonesoffire]

Please read it again

I apologize. I don't know who the him is.

No, wait...these were your words. I don't know who replied nor do I know who it was.