Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,633
3,569
113
I simply asked you if you wanted to answer them, you are as free to refuse as I am
saying that Jesus is God is something no Christ follower should have any issue answering.

unless, there is a reason why you do not want to.
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
saying that Jesus is God is something no Christ follower should have any issue answering.

unless, there is a reason why you do not want to.
Like I said, if you want to discuss trinity start a thread on it, this one is about something else entirely
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
503
113
54
HBG. Pa. USA
You have not done anything other than post your opinion by subjective comments which have no bearing on the scripture cited. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27 is what is being discussed. Make your point there. Your comments earlier in regards to Paul being disqualified from the ministry is not support by the context of the passage you were discussing. Here the post is again. Prove it wrong within the passage.

Disqualified; castaway; rejected not much difference.
CONTEXT shows a disqualification alright.

It implies no finish of the race. One crown to be awarded. An nonperishable one. And this my friend is only given to those who finish.

Contexts implies no crown because the race is not finished due to a disqualification.

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Partaker of what? The Gospel with you.
If someone is not partaking of the Gospel are they saved?
NO they are not.
"Might be a partaker" is being spoken in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities. In other words His partaking of the Gospel is not a given. There is a possibility that he will not. This comes out even clearer as we continue.

In respect to verse 23's proclamation Paul continues.

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

So run that ye might obtain.
Obtain what? Salvation through the life in Christ; the Gospel.

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

So let us Run temperate in all things that we might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life through Christ.

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

I therefore so run; temperate in all things that I might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life, Paul says.

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul says "Lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Cast; Disqualified from what? The Race he himself is running.That He might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life,
Context Lightsaber........my stance is good.....so is the use of the use of the word within the context....it is not about losing salvation......maybe one of these days you might figure it out Lightbulb
So you can't. That is alright I already knew that you couldn't.


BTW Nice play on my screenname.

Lightsaber...Lightbulb lol

Oh incidentally not that you care but I will not be replying to your posts in relation to our conversation anymore unless you have something relevant in relation to 1 Cor 9:23-27.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,058
6,606
113
Yet those who wait for the Lord Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.
Isaiah 40:31 NASB

He wants fellowship with us enough to die for us...without Him, it is impossible.

He is the way, the truth and the life...
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
134
44
28
I twisted nothing and I *properly harmonized scripture with scripture* before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, instead of forcing the text to conform to a biased theory, as you did.
John in the passage concerned declares the persons in question believed in Jesus.Who should I believe you or him.James by using brethren and Abraham as support for his theory proves that the faith again was real .I will believe John and James not your twisting of their teaching.


James 2:19 also says the demons believe (same Greek word "pisteuo") yet we know they are not saved, unless you would like to argue they are saved because they "believe." It's the same for these Jews in John John 8:31-59, who were said to have "believed" yet they turned out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. You call that saving belief?o_O

Yes it is belief and this is proof that what you believe/teach is not complete.It is for this very reason James wrote what he did.Read it without the misconception caused from misunderstanding Paul.Read all of what Paul says and not just some.His support of what James wrote goes something like this:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans 6:1,2)

If we(who have received grace) continue in sin are we still saved?


Yes, James does say it clearly and "faith without works is dead" does not does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like say that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Like flows through the root of a living tree and produces fruit. So does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or does a tree produce fruit BECAUSE it's a living tree? This is common sense.

This is not commonsense,this is carnal reasoning which makes no sense.The fact of faith being dead means it produces nothing.As James says,it cannot save.Hence whether the tree is alive or dead is irrelevant as if it produces no fruit it serves no purpose.And we know live trees can be fruitless.


Dead is dead, which is the opposite of alive, as we see in (Ephesians 2:5-8). You really believe that Jesus never doubted that those Jews in John chapter 8 truly believed, even after saying they were slaves to sin, children of the devil and liars? If you can believe that then you can believe anything! :eek:

You seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and you cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, which explains why you have so much faith in works.

Why misrepresent what I say.We are dealing with about three passages which clearly show persons who truly believed in Jesus.How can you say, "You seem to believe that "all" belief is the same"?As I said elsewhere what Jesus doubted was their willingness to truly submit to his will after believing.


Only one (the 4th soil) produced fruit and demonstrated genuine consummated belief resulting in salvation. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

The circular OSAS type of reasoning again.It was not the initial belief which was problematic.It was what they produced after believing.They being on stony ground,among thorns and good ground refers to the enduring of that belief to the producing of the result achieved.This is why scripture reminds us:


"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."(Matthew 10:22)

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."(James 1:12)



Then there was no genuine repentance. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine repentance/faith, but not the essence of repentance/faith and not the means of our salvation.

Hence they are not saved even though they had believed.Repentance is a work in case you did not know and it is the lack of the same which results in no work not necessarily the lack of initial belief.


True faith does not remain barren of works, so all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

Again, works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.
No, "truly repented, but produces no works at all" is an OXYMORON. If repentance is genuine, it will results in works.

Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10)

There are plenty of non-genuine believers (nominal Christians) who do not continue in His word. Judas Iscariot is a good example.
Continuing in His word is evidence of saving belief and not the cause. Belief that does not continue was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Shallow, temporary belief that does not continue was dead all along.
Again, in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Big difference!

They believe "mental assent" in God, but they do not believe in or on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31) Do you understand the big difference?

"Continuing in evil works/does not continue in His word" is not descriptive of those who are born of God.

All the above responses avoid the questions asked for the most part and actually require no comment as the circular OSAS type of reasoning is obvious.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,659
3,606
113
Can I ask you something?
If I wanted understanding of the following for example, would concordances be needed or helpful? Or, would I need the Holy Spirit solely to inform/enlighten me when specifically in Paul's life he was referring to and how/why sin could take occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him, and the rest of the passage to?


What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.


11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. rom7:7-11
Firstly I have no idea what concupiscence means

Maybe explain that to me.

If we are talking about Romans 7:7-11 I have read the verses through to

Romans 7:7-25
The History and Experience of Jews under the Law
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.
9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life,
10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.
11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.
12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good.
17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.
19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.
20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
22 I love God’s law with all my heart.
23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

So in all honesty I've read many explanations concerning this. Mainly verses 15-25.
Two sides of the coin here with regards to this.
Paul pre believer and Paul as a believer.

Not looked at concordances on this.
But as said read a lot about it. To me no Greek nuances needed here.

But this whole chapter does my head in.
I have prayed and begged God for understanding.

You see when I sin to me it is me doing it.
Some translations use "Sinful Nature" like the above. But the word nature is actually "Sarx" which is flesh.

As follows

Romans 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

So I can't answer your question.
Because I don't get this chapter.

Yet I know I sin and I have no idea why. Because I hate my sin with a passion.
I do not walk after the flesh but I fail.
But is my nature sinful or my flesh?

Either way we know that Paul goes on to Romans 8.

Still does not help me though.

Because I still sin.

Sorry I can't answer the question asked.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Rom 5:2  Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace by which we have been established, and we boast because of our hope in God's glory.


Rom 5:3  Not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,


Rom 5:4  endurance produces character, and character produces hope.


Rom 5:5  Now this hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Everything is given to us to overcome. The answer to all this is to be filled with Holy Spirit. Make this the goal. Not works.
To overcome what?
If we need to overcome something....whatever we do, some here will call that a work.
I've read some say that faith itself is a work!

The idea that Jesus does everything for us makes no sense.
Jesus did HIS part for us by the atonement....
Don't we also have something to do?

Do we have a relationship with Jesus?
Does a relationship require TWO persons or just ONE?

God gives to us,,,
and we give back.

Your verses above are true and they DO NOT conflict with the following verses.
Jesus and Paul both taught works. They both taught that we are to obey God.
WHAT are we to obey???

How do you explain the following?
Why do you feel intimidated by doing something good for God and declaring it so?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Matthew 5:38-48
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Luke 6:27-36
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

Psalm 34:12-16
Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.

Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

1 Peter 2:20
For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

James 2:14-21
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

James 3:13
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Acts 9:36
Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.

Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Colossians 1:10-12
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

1 Peter 2:13-15
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Firstly I have no idea what concupiscence means

Maybe explain that to me.

If we are talking about Romans 7:7-11 I have read the verses through to

Romans 7:7-25
The History and Experience of Jews under the Law
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.
9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life,
10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.
11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.
12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good.
17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.
19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.
20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
22 I love God’s law with all my heart.
23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

So in all honesty I've read many explanations concerning this. Mainly verses 15-25.
Two sides of the coin here with regards to this.
Paul pre believer and Paul as a believer.

Not looked at concordances on this.
But as said read a lot about it. To me no Greek nuances needed here.

But this whole chapter does my head in.
I have prayed and begged God for understanding.

You see when I sin to me it is me doing it.
Some translations use "Sinful Nature" like the above. But the word nature is actually "Sarx" which is flesh.

As follows

Romans 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

So I can't answer your question.
Because I don't get this chapter.

Yet I know I sin and I have no idea why. Because I hate my sin with a passion.
I do not walk after the flesh but I fail.
But is my nature sinful or my flesh?

Either way we know that Paul goes on to Romans 8.

Still does not help me though.

Because I still sin.

Sorry I can't answer the question asked.
Im only putting this up as you said it interests you, it concerns verses7-13
When I was ten, my parents moved church, and obviously I moved with them. The first thing that impressed me about the new church was, I must take God very seriously indeed, and so, a few weeks later I responded to an altar call and set out on the Christian path. The first change I noticed in me was, I became aware of my sin/shortcomings in a profound way, obviously because the law was now in my heart and mind, and through it I was conscious of sin. And so I set out to live a pure and holy life for God, I wanted that more than anything, for I wanted to follow my saviour, and I could not expect to live a life of sin and still be saved, for I knew even then, God hates sin.

But there was a problem, I could not rid myself of my imperfections, I got angry at times(as kids and adults do) told fibs, wasn’t as kind as I should be to some people and all the time I felt much guilt at this, I was not living as a Christian should live.

But when I reached puberty, the problems magnified greatly, for along came impure thoughts. I honestly did not want them, I wanted to live a pure and holy life for God. And I feared those thoughts, for they could send me to hell, I was not living a pure and Holy life for God. Of course, I asked God to forgive me my sin, and when I earnestly did so I was sure I was forgiven, but the sin kept coming back, and it got worse and worse gradually over time. The more I feared those impure thoughts the worse they got, it was hopeless, I could not be free of them. Eventually, I was consumed by all manner of concupiscence and I felt condemned, for I was far from living a pure and Holy life now. In the five years since I got saved, I had just become swamped by sin, and lost the happiness I had previously, I was wracked with guilt, fear and condemnation.

Looking back at that time now, how could I describe it?

Is the law sin? Certainly not, for I would not have known what sin was but for the law, I would not have known the rottenness of lust if the law had not said: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, took advantage of my knowledge of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me. How could sin do that? Because the power of sin is the law(1cor15:56) the legally enforceable law with its power to condemn, and I believed it could condemn me, so the sin just got worse and worse.

I had felt alive once without the law, just a normal happy kid, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin revived(or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died/felt condemned. The commandment I believed was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep it. Sin fooled me, taking occasion of the commandment to slay me. For I hinged everything on faultlessly obeying it.

However, the law itself is Holy, just and good, nothing wrong with it at all. But wasn’t that which is good the thing that brought death to me? God forbid, but sin, that it might appear sin, be shown to be what it is, wrought death in me from what was good, and sin by the commandment became utterly sinful



You see, saul the Pharisee made a personal commitment to God at the age of thirteen, the law came to him in a profound way to at that age. And I, in reality tried to attain to Heaven exactly the same way he did, and so I got exactly the same result he did
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,598
19,379
113
You have not done anything other than post your opinion by subjective comments which have no bearing on the scripture cited. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27 is what is being discussed. Make your point there. Your comments earlier in regards to Paul being disqualified from the ministry is not support by the context of the passage you were discussing. Here the post is again. Prove it wrong within the passage.

Disqualified; castaway; rejected not much difference.
CONTEXT shows a disqualification alright.

It implies no finish of the race. One crown to be awarded. An nonperishable one. And this my friend is only given to those who finish.

Contexts implies no crown because the race is not finished due to a disqualification.

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Partaker of what? The Gospel with you.
If someone is not partaking of the Gospel are they saved?
NO they are not.
"Might be a partaker" is being spoken in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities. In other words His partaking of the Gospel is not a given. There is a possibility that he will not. This comes out even clearer as we continue.

In respect to verse 23's proclamation Paul continues.

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

So run that ye might obtain.
Obtain what? Salvation through the life in Christ; the Gospel.

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

So let us Run temperate in all things that we might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life through Christ.

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

I therefore so run; temperate in all things that I might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life, Paul says.

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul says "Lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Cast; Disqualified from what? The Race he himself is running.That He might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life,
So you can't. That is alright I already knew that you couldn't.


BTW Nice play on my screenname.

Lightsaber...Lightbulb lol

Oh incidentally not that you care but I will not be replying to your posts in relation to our conversation anymore unless you have something relevant in relation to 1 Cor 9:23-27.
Please don't conflate can't with won't or don't care to argue a moot point with one that regularly rejects truth.......and I am good if you don't respond Lightpole
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Can faith be faith in Jesus without love?
John did not believe so. He stated to claim to know God and not love, makes one a liar.

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:20
Exactly.....Thanks for the scripture.

Love must be united with faith or we don't even have faith.
Paul taught that we are to have Faith, Hope and Love.
What hope?
Hope for our salvation....
For what is seen is not hope...

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Firstly I have no idea what concupiscence means

Maybe explain that to me.

If we are talking about Romans 7:7-11 I have read the verses through to

Romans 7:7-25
The History and Experience of Jews under the Law
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.
9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life,
10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead.
11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.
12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good.
17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.
19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.
20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
22 I love God’s law with all my heart.
23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

So in all honesty I've read many explanations concerning this. Mainly verses 15-25.
Two sides of the coin here with regards to this.
Paul pre believer and Paul as a believer.

Not looked at concordances on this.
But as said read a lot about it. To me no Greek nuances needed here.

But this whole chapter does my head in.
I have prayed and begged God for understanding.

You see when I sin to me it is me doing it.
Some translations use "Sinful Nature" like the above. But the word nature is actually "Sarx" which is flesh.

As follows

Romans 7:18-20
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

So I can't answer your question.
Because I don't get this chapter.

Yet I know I sin and I have no idea why. Because I hate my sin with a passion.
I do not walk after the flesh but I fail.
But is my nature sinful or my flesh?

Either way we know that Paul goes on to Romans 8.

Still does not help me though.

Because I still sin.

Sorry I can't answer the question asked.
Concupiscense is the sin nature.....or the flesh.
It's what makes us sin....different churches call it different names.
Some call it Original Sin...I like sin nature.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,659
3,606
113
Im only putting this up as you said it interests you, it concerns verses7-13
When I was ten, my parents moved church, and obviously I moved with them. The first thing that impressed me about the new church was, I must take God very seriously indeed, and so, a few weeks later I responded to an altar call and set out on the Christian path. The first change I noticed in me was, I became aware of my sin/shortcomings in a profound way, obviously because the law was now in my heart and mind, and through it I was conscious of sin. And so I set out to live a pure and holy life for God, I wanted that more than anything, for I wanted to follow my saviour, and I could not expect to live a life of sin and still be saved, for I knew even then, God hates sin.

But there was a problem, I could not rid myself of my imperfections, I got angry at times(as kids and adults do) told fibs, wasn’t as kind as I should be to some people and all the time I felt much guilt at this, I was not living as a Christian should live.

But when I reached puberty, the problems magnified greatly, for along came impure thoughts. I honestly did not want them, I wanted to live a pure and holy life for God. And I feared those thoughts, for they could send me to hell, I was not living a pure and Holy life for God. Of course, I asked God to forgive me my sin, and when I earnestly did so I was sure I was forgiven, but the sin kept coming back, and it got worse and worse gradually over time. The more I feared those impure thoughts the worse they got, it was hopeless, I could not be free of them. Eventually, I was consumed by all manner of concupiscence and I felt condemned, for I was far from living a pure and Holy life now. In the five years since I got saved, I had just become swamped by sin, and lost the happiness I had previously, I was wracked with guilt, fear and condemnation.

Looking back at that time now, how could I describe it?

Is the law sin? Certainly not, for I would not have known what sin was but for the law, I would not have known the rottenness of lust if the law had not said: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, took advantage of my knowledge of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me. How could sin do that? Because the power of sin is the law(1cor15:56) the legally enforceable law with its power to condemn, and I believed it could condemn me, so the sin just got worse and worse.

I had felt alive once without the law, just a normal happy kid, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin revived(or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died/felt condemned. The commandment I believed was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep it. Sin fooled me, taking occasion of the commandment to slay me. For I hinged everything on faultlessly obeying it.

However, the law itself is Holy, just and good, nothing wrong with it at all. But wasn’t that which is good the thing that brought death to me? God forbid, but sin, that it might appear sin, be shown to be what it is, wrought death in me from what was good, and sin by the commandment became utterly sinful



You see, saul the Pharisee made a personal commitment to God at the age of thirteen, the law came to him in a profound way to at that age. And I, in reality tried to attain to Heaven exactly the same way he did, and so I got exactly the same result he did
My ancestry is Muslim.
Even dedicated to Allah.

I came believer when I watched the movie Jesus of Nazareth.
Did not fully understand it but believed he died and rose again.
I was 7.

Now 51.
Gone astray, but never lost my faith in Jesus.
Every time this dumb sheep who has gone astray and bleats "Jesus I need help" he shows up
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
here is my post in its context showing who has eternal life straight from the bible

lets look at who does has eternal life


Jesus answers, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" (John 8:51).

Paul replies that God "will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Rom. 2:6-7).

btw: i didnt write these verses..........i'm only quoting them

The writer to the Hebrews states that Christ is "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (5:9).

John adds: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (I John 2:24-25).

if.....shall continue in the son...........dont miss it please

This is an impressive array of clear-cut, unambiguous answers. Who has and shall have eternal life?

Those who keep Christ's sayings; those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality; those who obey the Lord; and those who continue in the Son and in the Father. None other need apply.
Great post.

And look....
No need for the Greek to explain it.
It explains itself....for those willing to listen and hear.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,598
19,379
113
Concupiscense is the sin nature.....or the flesh.
It's what makes us sin....different churches call it different names.
Some call it Original Sin...I like sin nature.
Fran.......why is it so hard to just post honest definitions.......

con·cu·pis·cence
/känˈkyo͞opəsəns/
noun
FORMAL

  1. strong sexual desire; lust.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,659
3,606
113
Concupiscense is the sin nature.....or the flesh.
It's what makes us sin....different churches call it different names.
Some call it Original Sin...I like sin nature.
Interesting.

Is there not a difference between nature and flesh?

Is the nature in Jesus sinful?
Flesh is flesh.
My finger typing this message is flesh.

But if I called you a stupid cow is that my nature?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
My ancestry is Muslim.
Even dedicated to Allah.

I came believer when I watched the movie Jesus of Nazareth.
Did not fully understand it but believed he died and rose again.
I was 7.

Now 51.
Gone astray, but never lost my faith in Jesus.
Every time this dumb sheep who has gone astray and bleats "Jesus I need help" he shows up
You never lost your faith Bill.

Some do.

Faith = Salvation.
No Faith = Being lost.
(at whatever point in our life we no longer have faith)
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
.
Gone astray, but never lost my faith in Jesus.
Every time this dumb sheep who has gone astray and bleats "Jesus I need help" he shows up
But my righteous[g] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.’[h]

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved. Heb10:38&39
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,453
8,288
113
Like I said, if you want to discuss trinity start a thread on it, this one is about something else entirely
this thread does have a title and all.. but tbh over 4,000 pages it covers a great breadth of topic. and the deity of Christ is inextricably linked to a salvation which is 'not by works' -- would you like to discuss how it is linked?