Not By Works

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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Hmmmm......:unsure: I don’t think there is anything “human” in regards to the “spirit. The human part is the flesh and earthen clay.
Our spirit is part of our person....our humanity.

BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

We ARE HUMAN.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,235
4,183
113
@VCO Endoscopy plainly states no works no faith


Since you are in agreement with him, how many works to prove our faith?

Do we look to our works for evidence of our salvation?

Is this what you do, this is a very precarious place to put one's trust, the evidence one's works?

Can we separate out what God commands for salvation and what He commands for a worthy walk?

I propose that if we read John 15 about "abiding" they are separate.

Now people with traditional view will not separate salvation from fellowship....now I am truly curious VCO where you are on this?


Now were on GOD's Green earth do you get: "how many works to prove our faith?"

SALVATION IS COMPLETE, the Very MOMENT YOU BELIEVE, before any of WORKS EVER COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED.


YOUR NEW BORN SPIRIT, HAS GOD's LOVE IN IT, which was poured into our hearts the MOMENT THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME IN.

SO you can look at the LOVE in the Lifestyle and TELL whether or not a PERSON IS TRULY BORN AGAIN OR NOT, BY HIS LOVE.

The Holy Spirit HAS TO BE THEIR, for that Self-sacrificial AGAPE LOVE TO BE PRESENT. NO it is NOT PART OF SALVATION, IT IS PART OF THE GOD GIVEN LOVE THAT HE POURED IN US, Rom. 5:5.

I learned that from 1 John 3:17, because GOD Himself gave us that method to determine whether or not a person has the HOLY SPIRIT in him or her.

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋
—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,


HERE IS WHAT I BELIEVE ABOUT SALVATION:


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Therefore SALVATION is your's the very MOMENT you RECEIVED JESUS AS LORD, meaning MASTER.

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.


Therefore the HOLY SPIRIT has to be in a person before he can claim to be SAVED.
AND the GOD GIVEN LOVE he manifests can be used to as evidence of whether or not the HOLY SPIRIT is in that person.
You are not measuring WORKS, YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR EVIDENCE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REALLY IN THAT PERSON.

REMEMBER:

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

And the primary spiritual fruit is that GOD GIVEN LOVE.

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


Haven't you ever wondered why I always say after I have been dealing with an self-centered individual for awhile:
"WHERE IS YOUR LOVE, WE DO NOT SEE IT ? ? ?"
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,816
3,012
113
So Lafftur.
You were here a while ago.
Stopped being here.
Then you come back and post.

It upsets me.

It upset me you left.
Thank God you are back here.
Now I'm happy.
@BillG, perhaps you finally took me off your ignore list....LOL! :ROFL::giggle:

Just kidding! You can’t ignore me, everybody enjoys a good laff! :cool::giggle:(y)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
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1. Faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead.

2. Faith without works is dead.


Could you explain the difference?
I'm pretty good at English and I don't see it.

Besides the fact that you're embellishing the text. It shouldn't take two paragraphs to explain this verse.

It plainly says:

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Plain and simple.
James 2:17
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead ...
Are you pretty good at English? How about...
honesty
/ˈɒnɪsti/

noun
  1. 1.
    the quality of being honest.
    "they spoke with convincing honesty about their fears"
    synonyms:moral correctness, uprightness, honourableness, honour, integrity, morals, morality, ethics, principle, (high) principles, nobility, righteousness, rectitude, right-mindedness, upstandingness;
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
For the upteenth time, “faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
Quote: "James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead."

"ACCOMPANIED" clearly explains it that it is "NOT ALONE"
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,210
6,784
113
In church this morning, I read this and thought I'd share it because it hit home...

This is the perserverence of the saints (James 1:12). Because God has given them the gift of faith in Christ, all believers perservere to the end. Every true believer in Jesus Christ gives evidence of his or her faith by enduring trials. This isn't about your ability to hold on to God; it's about His ability to hold on to you. (Phil. 1:6)


And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/php.1.6.ESV
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,948
10,731
113
55
1. Faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead.

2. Faith without works is dead.

Could you explain the difference?
I'm pretty good at English and I don't see it.

Besides the fact that you're embellishing the text. It shouldn't take two paragraphs to explain this verse.

It plainly says:

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Plain and simple.
James 2:17
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead ...
I already explained it multiple times in multiple posts. Do you believe that James is saying faith is dead UNTIL it produces works? Do you also believe that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
The itsy TWISTY spider...

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. THEY ARE GODLESS MEN, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and DENY Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

...They claim to know God, but by THEIR ACTIONS they DENY Him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good. Titus 1:16

Look who's talking about HONESTY.

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Do you not CALL EVIL GOOD and GOOD EVIL? (Isaiah 5:20-24)

Is it RIGHT to OBEY God? Is it GOOD or is it WRONG and EVIL? If it is RIGHT and GOOD, why do you call those who promote OBEDIENCE TO GOD as FALSE or peddlers of a FALSE GOSPEL?

Do you not insult and call the views of those who promote OBEDIENCE to God as IDIOTIC?

It's funny how your group can say that only genuine believers would OBEY God and those who promote OBEDIENCE to God are LOST, UNBELIEVERS, FALSE, DECEIVER, NOT SAVED TO BEGIN WITH and many other discriminating NEGATIVE remarks.

And when you are called out, you will accuse them of SLANDER and start bullying those who disagree with you.

But scriptures fortold of these kind of people and behaviour.

.. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19

...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

...Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. HE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

IS IT RIGHT TO OBEY GOD or not?

Are you an instrument of God's righteousness or do you just BELIEVE and let God do everything for you?

Who now is the LORD, you?...and who is your servant, GOD?

....“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares HIS SON WHO SERVES HIM. And you will again see the DISTINCTION between the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED, between those who SERVE GOD and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18

...God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Are you pretty good at English? How about...
honesty
/ˈɒnɪsti/

noun
  1. 1.
    the quality of being honest.
    "they spoke with convincing honesty about their fears"
    synonyms:moral correctness, uprightness, honourableness, honour, integrity, morals, morality, ethics, principle, (high) principles, nobility, righteousness, rectitude, right-mindedness, upstandingness;
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Amen! Romans 11:29 (AMPC) - For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

Is not eternal life/salvation by the grace of God a gift that would be included in gifts? (Romans 5:15-18; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) Absolutely.

Romans 11:29 also says God's call is irrevocable, which brings us to Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.*ALL of them. (y)
Please note:

1. The free gift is JESUS as a sacrifice to save mankind. Mercy and grace can be added. God will not stop giving these gifts to mankind....(whoever wants them).

2. God is speaking about the Jews and not of man individually...which is what chapters 9, 10 and 11 are about.

3. God's call for the Jews is irrevocable.


You might want to read the following...and there's much more on the internet,,,
which will help you to understand about Romans ....

Maybe we could stop hearing about these "irrevocable" gifts as if it was speaking to
individual salvation and these irrevocable calls...
unless, of course, you've become calvinist....

http://lhim.org/blog/2014/04/11/a-free-will-perspective-on-romans-9-and-predestination/
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I already explained it multiple times in multiple posts. Do you believe that James is saying faith is dead UNTIL it produces works? Do you also believe that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit?
Why don't you like talking about trees and vines when referring to John 15:1-6??

Let's stop thinking about trees and start thinking honestly and quote what the bible says?

Yes. James said:

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

No UNTIL....YOU are adding that in and it's called embellishing.

If you say you have FAITH,,,
but have NO WORKS,,,
YOU HAVE NO FAITH.


THIS is what James is saying.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
113
In church this morning, I read this and thought I'd share it because it hit home...

This is the perserverence of the saints (James 1:12). Because God has given them the gift of faith in Christ, all believers perservere to the end. Every true believer in Jesus Christ gives evidence of his or her faith by enduring trials. This isn't about your ability to hold on to God; it's about His ability to hold on to you. (Phil. 1:6)


And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/php.1.6.ESV
Amen.....emphasis upon CHRIST finishing and completing the work
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,948
10,731
113
55
Quote: "James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead."

"ACCOMPANIED" clearly explains it that it is "NOT ALONE"
Authentic faith does not remain “alone” - (barren of works) yet we are still saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation. *Not to be confused with an “empty profession of faith/dead faith” that remains “alone” - barren of works.* (James 2:14-20)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
113
Please note:

1. The free gift is JESUS as a sacrifice to save mankind. Mercy and grace can be added. God will not stop giving these gifts to mankind....(whoever wants them).

2. God is speaking about the Jews and not of man individually...which is what chapters 9, 10 and 11 are about.

3. God's call for the Jews is irrevocable.


You might want to read the following...and there's much more on the internet,,,
which will help you to understand about Romans ....

Maybe we could stop hearing about these "irrevocable" gifts as if it was speaking to
individual salvation and these irrevocable calls...
unless, of course, you've become calvinist....

http://lhim.org/blog/2014/04/11/a-free-will-perspective-on-romans-9-and-predestination/
Maybe you can look the words honesty and integrity up along with obey the rules.....when one pushes obedience yet is deceptively here while breaking the rules....it leaves no room for credibility......and GIFTS IS PLURAL AND Call equates to any call....there is neither Jew nor Gentile under the new covenant...the two have become one and we have been GRAFTED IN UNDER THEIR BANNER....man you really have no understanding hey!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,470
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Why don't you like talking about trees and vines when referring to John 15:1-6??

Let's stop thinking about trees and start thinking honestly and quote what the bible says?

Yes. James said:

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

No UNTIL....YOU are adding that in and it's called embellishing.

If you say you have FAITH,,,
but have NO WORKS,,,
YOU HAVE NO FAITH.


THIS is what James is saying.
Does not active faith require work? I mean true faith is a work in progress. It's not easy to believe in the unseen. Hebrews 11; 1 & 2 says->
1) "Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. 2This is why the ancients were commended.…"
That sounds like work to me!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Maybe you can look the words honesty and integrity up along with obey the rules.....when one pushes obedience yet is deceptively here while breaking the rules....it leaves no room for credibility......and GIFTS IS PLURAL AND Call equates to any call....there is neither Jew nor Gentile under the new covenant...the two have become one and we have been GRAFTED IN UNDER THEIR BANNER....man you really have no understanding hey!
Have nothing to say....
Except you should study Romans 9, 10 and 11.

It would be nice.

Here's another site...
They'll all state the same theology,,,,
except the calvinist ones...they have their very own theology of course....

http://preachingsource.com/journal/the-jews-the-future-and-god-romans-9-11/
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
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I already explained it multiple times in multiple posts. Do you believe that James is saying faith is dead UNTIL it produces works? Do you also believe that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit?
How many times......He is addressing JEWS and compares the claim of faith to the same belief the devils have IN GOD and that he is real....belief in God does not save a man.....saving FAITH DOES.....and to a T ALMOST EVERY WORKER FOR OR SALVATION LOSER DENY THE WORDS.....

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH................it has nothing to do with being justified BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW.........

zero honesty among the workers for and salvation losers which we already know by the fact that many of them claim or push obedience and yet break the rules of this site by coming back under different names....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Does not active faith require work? I mean true faith is a work in progress. It's not easy to believe in the unseen. Hebrews 11; 1 & 2 says->
1) "Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. 2This is why the ancients were commended.…"
That sounds like work to me!
I agree. True faith is a work in progress...
It's a life-long journey.

But we DO have to have something to show for it.
Like Jesus said....Love God,,,your neighbor,,,and yourself.
Doesn't this have good deeds in the mix?
Just being nice to people could be a good deed.

2 Timothy 2:21

Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Authentic faith does not remain “alone” - (barren of works) yet we are still saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation. *Not to be confused with an “empty profession of faith/dead faith” that remains “alone” - barren of works.* (James 2:14-20)
Be nice MMD.

You know very well you're describing JUSTIFICATION above.
What about SANCTIFICATION??
Isn't that a part of LIFE???