Not By Works

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willybob

Guest
Judas was hand picked out of complete sincerity of Jesus. Judas was given the power to raise the dead, preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons..a true friend of Jesus who went bad, it even grieved Jesus in the spirit. Judas sought repentance but could not find it....
 
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willybob

Guest
Judas was hand picked out of complete sincerity of Jesus. Judas was given the power to raise the dead, preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons..a true friend of Jesus who went bad, it even grieved Jesus in the spirit. Judas sought repentance but could not find it....we know that Jesus does not give these powers to the unsaved..
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Judas Iscariot was a viper and stole from the poor. He followed Jesus for power and money.

Jesus sent His disciples out two by two.

He also said some will say "Lord lord, " but Jesus would tell them He never knew them.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Joseph and Hanna were blameless, not sinless. Only Jesus was sinless.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
What do you perceive grace to be? ....and accept Jesus is found anywhere in the text... however receive the ingrafted word and obey Jesus is..Therefore receiving Jesus is biblical, of which means obedience from the heart out of sincerity, the 4th condition of the heart found in the parable of the sower...Therefore its God that finds us acceptable,ie (the worthy) not the other way around..seems you have some confusion of words, hope this helps, be blessed and dig deep building your house on the Rock of truth, the world is flooded to the mountain tops with lies out of the mouth of the dragon and his false prophets..
maybe my words could have been chosen better

by grace Jesus was sent to be our savior

When i think grace
i think Gods mercy

like when i said Grace+faith=works till salvation

what i mean is
because of Gods mercy if we accept Jesus as our savior
we will follow him into eternal life

and following Jesus doesnt lead to sin
it leads to righteousness


a lot of what you said kinda went in one ear out the other like

"Therefore its God that finds us acceptable,ie (the worthy) not the other way around.."

what are you implying here

your wording confuses me
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Judas was hand picked out of complete sincerity of Jesus. Judas was given the power to raise the dead, preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons..a true friend of Jesus who went bad, it even grieved Jesus in the spirit. Judas sought repentance but could not find it....we know that Jesus does not give these powers to the unsaved..
Judas was not saved, for he was a son of perdition, and unclean.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Judas was hand picked out of complete sincerity of Jesus. Judas was given the power to raise the dead, preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons..a true friend of Jesus who went bad, it even grieved Jesus in the spirit. Judas sought repentance but could not find it....
He was never saved. He was called "son of perdition," which is the name also given to the future Antichrist.

No one with that name is saved.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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HOW did Cain push works?

I thank you in advance for the lesson.

Abel had faith. Cain didn't. Evident by their offerings... Cain brought crops (his own works of self) whereas Abel brought a blood sacrifice as God had instructed. Cain didn't believe God and did his own thing. This same thing can be seen today... those who have faith in the blood of Jesus as atonement for their sins versus those with no faith, who depend on their own works for salvation!!


The whole of Jude speaks of apostates who don't have the Spirit (Jude 19) and likens them to Cain!

Jude 11...

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah."


Hebrews 11:4:
"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks"

1 John 3:12: "...not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous"

Matthew 7:23: (judgment day) ".....depart from me, you workers of lawlessness"

John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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And also v10: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"
You see.
You yourself say it IS good works!

WE ARE CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS.

Which part of that sentence do you have trouble understanding??
V10 emphasizes that works come after salvation. They're the evidence of one's salvation, not the cause of it. And that verse also says that God prepared them in advance. Saved FOR good works.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Fran.....

Since the scriptures say that one cannot enter the Kingdom unless they are born again, I'm curious to know your belief as to how a person is born again (John 3:1-8)
Only one way:

John 3:3-6
John 3:16
Galatians 2:16
Colossians 1:21-23
I'm familiar with those scriptures, which can unfortunately be twisted in multiple ways.

But I'm asking what you believe.... again, the scriptures say that one cannot enter the Kingdom unless they are born again. How do you believe a person is born again? (John 3:1-8)
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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it is not of works. accept it. you mentioned Titus 2: 14, 15 earlier. if you KEEP READING, Titus 3 clearly lays out NOT BY WORKS.

Titus 2:11-15: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you"

Titus 3:1-8: "Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Fran, Dcon isn't saying that we aren't to do good works after we're saved.

He's saying that those works will NOT KEEP US SAVED.

Big difference.
Oh, but they WILL.
Salvation is a gift. Not earnt by us, so cannot be maintained by us either.


Jude 24: "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"


The only way we could lose our salvation is if Jesus sinned (impossible!) He is the one that covers us with His perfect blood, so when God looks at us He sees the righteousness of Christ.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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You're right that Paul taught that salvation is not by works. It is TOTALLY by grace.

Tell me what Paul said about AFTER we're saved.

I'm not posting verses again since you pay no attention to them.

Look it up yourself.
Does Paul no exhort us to do good works?
So IF works are NOT needed for our salvation,
WHY did Jesus say to do them?

Was He just wasting His breath?
Did He just feel like talking to those croweds?
People are saved if they obey Christ.

Why don't you post a verse that says we're saved NO MATTER WHAT
and that our obedience IS NOT NECESSARY.

Please look for one.
You're contradicting yourself.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Judas was hand picked out of complete sincerity of Jesus. Judas was given the power to raise the dead, preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons..a true friend of Jesus who went bad, it even grieved Jesus in the spirit. Judas sought repentance but could not find it....
John 13:18 states - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

In Matthew 10:1, we read - Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Does this mean that Judas was saved? NO. Does it mean that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were saved? NO.

Judas' true colors was that he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Salvation is a gift. Not earnt by us, so cannot be maintained by us either.
Amen! From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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NO NO MMD

You said that WORKING OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TRMBLING is different than
WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
It is different. Believers are to work out (through the process of ongoing sanctification) the salvation they already have in Christ after having being justified by faith, not work for the salvation that they don't yet have through faith in Christ. Since Roman Catholicism confuses justification with sanctification and you have been indoctrinated into their belief system, this may be very difficult for you to grasp.

You make many nice satements above which sound really good...

BUT YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION.

Try again.
I see that the truth still is not sinking in yet for you and I did answer your question.

How is WORKING OUT our salvation with fear and trembling
DIFFERENT FROM

WORKING FOR our salvation with fear and trembling.

Thanks.
I'm amazed that you were unable to glean the answer to that question from my previous posts. Believers work out the salvation they already have in Christ (ongoing sanctification), not work for the salvation they don't yet have in Christ (justification). It's not that difficult to understand.

P.S. For the nice folk who gave you likes, I think it only fair to post the original post to which you are responding.

Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post

In Philippians 2:12, notice that it says, "work out" your salvation not "work for" your salvation. This cannot refer to salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit in the process of ongoing sanctification. Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."


Good to make everything clear...
Apparently, it was clear to the nice folks who gave me likes, yet it seems to remain unclear to you.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Oh.

Then why do some on this thread say that it's GOD WORKING THROUGH US.

You don't agree with this then?

If it IS God working through us, then HE IS responsible for our shortcomings.
It means HE didn't work right.

This is different from saying that the Holy Spirit is our helper.
God working in us does not mean that He forces us to do everything. There is cooperation on our part. Philippians 2:13 says God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Man still has free will to choose to submit to God's will and good pleasure or sin. God works right, man just does not always submit right.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I don't know MMD.
You kind of explaind it pretty well in that post of yours above.
Yet you still don't get it?

Justification and Sanctification CANNOT be gleened from the bible because Paul used the terms interchangeably.
There is distinction between Justification and Sanctification, as I already explained.

This is a concept or doctrine which must be studied.
I have studied it, as you can see from my previous posts.

If you believe sanctification is a one time event, YOU'RE REPEATING CATHOLIC DOCTRINE! oh no!
As I already explained in post #9079, initial sanctification in which believers are made holy in standing before God postionally in Christ is a one time event, yet progressive (ongoing) sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives is not a one time event.

Also, there's no such thing as POSITIONAL in the bible.
Show me ONE VERSE that says we are POSITIONALLY anything.
The word "positionally" does not need to be specifically spelled out in the Bible in order to understand the concept of our positional standing in Christ, just as the word "Trinity" does not need to be specifically spelled out in the Bible in order to understand the concept of one God in three persons either.

JUSTIFICATION is a one time deal. Done by God. Salvation.
SANCTIFICATION is ongoing. It requires our CO.OPERATION, it requires our works.
Ongoing sanctification involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (1 Thessalonians 4:3,4; 5:14-18; James 4:7; Titus 2:12 etc..). Not in order to become or remain saved, but BECAUSE we already are saved. Once again, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).

There is no use in saying that God does NOT require works, or that they are a result of something, for instance our salvation.
Require works for what though? NOT to become saved but BECAUSE we already are saved. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Big difference.

Of course they're a result o our salvation. Do UNSAVED persons do works for God?
Without faith it's impossible to please God, so unsaved people do not do works for God. You can be "religious, but not right with God."

So it's CORRECT to say, and Paul said it many times, that we must CONTINUE in our faith and work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
Faith that saves continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Continuing in faith and working out our salvation with fear and trembling is the mark of a genuine believer.

Also, I've taught in the Catholic Church just very recently - up till two years ago.
Yet with Catholics, it's more of a maintenance program to maintain salvation by works, yet so many Roman Catholics don't understand what saving faith in Christ is in the first place. For them, it's a mixture of faith and works for salvation.

FEAR of GOD is NOT taught.
When I attended the Catholic church several years ago, they taught fear, but it was more of an unhealthy fear of God.

How old are you anyway and which Catholic church did you go to that they made you hate is so much??
I'm sorry for this.
I'm 51 years old. I was baptized in Holy Cross Catholic church as an infant and attended there and Assumption Catholic church. I even attended a Catholic school for 5 years. I never once heard a clear gospel presentation in all the years that I attended the Roman Catholic church, but I heard all about salvation by works, purgatory, indulgences, false doctrine on Mary etc.. For me it was a cold, ritualistic church that left me empty and spiritually bankrupt.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I never once heard a clear gospel presentation in all the years that I attended the Roman Catholic church, but I heard all about salvation by works, purgatory, indulgences, false doctrine on Mary etc.. For me it was a cold, ritualistic church that left me empty and spiritually bankrupt.
Must also mention that I heard all about "transubstantiation" which is a critical (yet false doctrine) for Roman Catholics.