Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Means it is conditional and not free. Do something to get it, if you don't do it, you won't have it. This something is what you call belief.
if i give you freedom your cell door is open whether you walk out of it or not.
disbelief doesn't change the fact that the chain was cut -- it only keeps you, needlessly, in your prison.


if i give you a car it's in your driveway whether you believe it or don't. you will never make use of it if you deny it, but it's still there, waiting for you.

if i heal your broken legs but you don't believe it, you'll stay in your wheelchair, but it doesn't change the fact that you could get up.

if i pull you out of the water you were drowning in, but you don't believe it, you'll die holding your breath, thinking you're still submerged, when all you had to do was open your mouth. it doesn't change the fact you were rescued.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Yes, and it is not ETERNAL, IF YOU CAN LOOSE IT.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
I love this, because it is so true.
Peter said we could be in a state when we would never fall.

This implies as believers we can fall.
What has happened over the months is the secure people have become closer to scripture because they have
had to. This is the fruit of the word of God. And some will finally see, Gods word. The only security in a real sense
is for the mature seed that has grown into fully grown plants with seeds of their own. They are secure in Christ,
they dwell in the heavenly, with Him in their hearts, their minds and their souls.

But the truth is most doubt they are even at rung 1, and need encouragement to believe God exists let alone
take a first step. So rather than discouraging folk by saying do nothing, it is a holiday, one needs to encourage
them to let love rule, to connect with the insecurities and put them totally in the hands of the Lord, Amen.

He will anoint with the Holy Spirit and they will find the path. Amen.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Faith is both a gift and a work.
Faith is a gift in reference to the use of our spiritual gifts, and God adds to our conviction according to His purposes.

But.......
It is definitely and absolutely never a work.

Romans 4:4 make it clear.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
if i give you freedom your cell door is open whether you walk out of it or not.
disbelief doesn't change the fact that the chain was cut -- it only keeps you, needlessly, in your prison.


if i give you a car it's in your driveway whether you believe it or don't. you will never make use of it if you deny it, but it's still there, waiting for you.

if i heal your broken legs but you don't believe it, you'll stay in your wheelchair, but it doesn't change the fact that you could get up.

if i pull you out of the water you were drowning in, but you don't believe it, you'll die holding your breath, thinking you're still submerged, when all you had to do was open your mouth. it doesn't change the fact you were rescued.
Hi post,

I love these analogies, because they are so true.
The missing thing is being a child and a new creation we need to grow and mature.
Our destination is maturity, perfection.

If we do not want to even try or walk, be actual are dead. The argument about beginnings is pointless
if the end is not achieved. I also wonder how many unbelievers throw up these arguments against Jesus's
word to discourage those who are not the elect.

The kind of antagonism I face only comes from something not the Lord. Let me say I am 5% off base, I miss
one issue or someones past obscures the basic truth, love is not hate, the gospel is not trash of rubbish,
people are not preach bs, we are not totally different from a believer who believes 99% the same things.

And this matters because evangelism is based on meaningful summaries. Confuse the summaries you destroy
the message and the reality. So a lot is at stake here. And the argument will never cease.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Means it is conditional and not free. Do something to get it, if you don't do it, you won't have it. This something is what you call belief.
Well you are changing your argument once again.

We do have to believe, of course we do....... again nonsense to believe in a gift you are not persuaded is real.

The role of faith is instrumental.... you seem to miss this as well.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Faith is a gift in reference to the use of our spiritual gifts, and God adds to our conviction according to His purposes.

But.......
It is definitely and absolutely never a work.

Romans 4:4 make it clear.
Hi UG,

There is a reality here. You think rom 4.4 says something in one way.
But that is totally your view. Until you balance it with your heart and the full testimony of scripture,
only then will you become close to Gods truth and reality.

So it is fine you holding your position. I respect that. I hold a different view. If you can never see this,
and I truly mean see it, in your heart and mind, then the very thing you are rejecting you do not know.
And one cannot reject something one does not know. Only by knowing it, can you know whether it is
true or false.

A good analogy of this is fruit one has never tasted. Some say, because I have never tasted it, I will not
like it. Others will taste it and then compare it to tastes they know and after a time come to a conclusion.

They may like it, they may not. But only then is the judgement real and involved. This way of testing truth,
finding reality is well known, and is risky, because you may agree with another perspective which may turn
out to be erroneous. But this is how we discover truth. It is how as people we are built. And it is how we
go from a child in God to a mature man or woman of God. God bless you
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
if i give you freedom your cell door is open whether you walk out of it or not.
disbelief doesn't change the fact that the chain was cut -- it only keeps you, needlessly, in your prison.


if i give you a car it's in your driveway whether you believe it or don't. you will never make use of it if you deny it, but it's still there, waiting for you.

if i heal your broken legs but you don't believe it, you'll stay in your wheelchair, but it doesn't change the fact that you could get up.

if i pull you out of the water you were drowning in, but you don't believe it, you'll die holding your breath, thinking you're still submerged, when all you had to do was open your mouth. it doesn't change the fact you were rescued.
These analogies are not really commensurate with our Faith in Christ.

For example; You can not believe in freedom if you are already seeing an open door and broken chains, you already have it. But if the door was some 3 days journey away and you come and tell me that the door is open. I will believe (my choice depending on persuasion) and i will HOPE and keep hope for the next 3 days as i travel that the door is actually open to secure my freedom.

Rom 8: 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Heb 11:1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

What we hope for is always future and not what we already have.
Yes, the whole world was saved at calvary, but for us who the law has reached, it is a promise to be achieved if we abide in Christ.
Meaning that the cell door was never actually closed but we must endure the journey, having been assured of an open door, keeping that hope along the way to secure our freedom.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Hi UG,

There is a reality here. You think rom 4.4 says something in one way.
But that is totally your view. Until you balance it with your heart and the full testimony of scripture,
only then will you become close to Gods truth and reality.

So it is fine you holding your position. I respect that. I hold a different view. If you can never see this,
and I truly mean see it, in your heart and mind, then the very thing you are rejecting you do not know.
And one cannot reject something one does not know. Only by knowing it, can you know whether it is
true or false.

A good analogy of this is fruit one has never tasted. Some say, because I have never tasted it, I will not
like it. Others will taste it and then compare it to tastes they know and after a time come to a conclusion.

They may like it, they may not. But only then is the judgement real and involved. This way of testing truth,
finding reality is well known, and is risky, because you may agree with another perspective which may turn
out to be erroneous. But this is how we discover truth. It is how as people we are built. And it is how we
go from a child in God to a mature man or woman of God. God bless you

Actually I know quite well and absolutely reject everything you have stated above.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

The words are clear to me... if you state that this is a obscure less understood concept and passage and is relative to one's understanding than you might as well state the entire Bible is completely relativistic and open to any and all private interpretation.

Conversation ended.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Simple faith

I sometimes wonder if it is better not to help people see Jesus one to one, and not try complex arguments
that are beyond them. I have seen good people, with a good heart, who know the Lord well get caught up
and burnt because the argument got heated, polarised and I am right and you are wrong became the focus,
to a level, I am eternally right and you are for the fire wrong.

My emotions will always tell me I am right, even when I am wrong. And if I can topple the opponent so much
the better. But Jesus did the opposite. He waited. He shared, and then let the truth work its way through.
He defended His authority and foundations, but He rarely attacked the opposition except when they were in
sin, obviously.

So testimonies of the Lord speaking to us work. Amen.
Putting others right on issues we cannot see how they see, not so good.

I have been told stuff by guys like myself as if I was somehow somebody else, to find with a different way
of expressing things we are brothers in Christ. So talking from our hearts does work, and trying to fit into
theology often does not.

I shared recently about the 4 spiritual laws. I know the symbolism, except Jesus on the throne, does not
make sense to me. Jesus working in me through love and the Holy Spirit, yes. But legalism, a rule from
a dictator, is the wrong image. Jesus teaching me to listen to myself, and let love speak from me, is
quite different, though this is Jesus on the throne, it is a different way of describing it. God bless you
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Well you are changing your argument once again.

We do have to believe, of course we do....... again nonsense to believe in a gift you are not persuaded is real.

The role of faith is instrumental.... you seem to miss this as well.
How instrumental?
A one week child being saved, not being tossed in the lake of fire. Can you explain how faith is instrumental in the salvation of this child, if not, the explanation of how this child is saved apart from faith is what i consider a free gift.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
These analogies are not really commensurate with our Faith in Christ.

For example; You can not believe in freedom if you are already seeing an open door and broken chains, you already have it. But if the door was some 3 days journey away and you come and tell me that the door is open. I will believe (my choice depending on persuasion) and i will HOPE and keep hope for the next 3 days as i travel that the door is actually open to secure my freedom.

Rom 8: 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Heb 11:1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

What we hope for is always future and not what we already have.
Yes, the whole world was saved at calvary, but for us who the law has reached, it is a promise to be achieved if we abide in Christ.
Meaning that the cell door was never actually closed but we must endure the journey, having been assured of an open door, keeping that hope along the way to secure our freedom.
"I will believe (my choice depending on persuasion)"

You are very sly Mr. Noose using my language to bolster your argument.

Once you are persuaded/convicted something is true you do not choose to be persuaded you are already persuaded!

Carry on @posthuman I will be rooting for you!!:)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
You sir are going off into tangents.

We are not talking about the reality of the gift.

The gift is real, it is an objective reality.

Faith is the a conviction that something is true, no work involved.

You are not defining faith, conviction correctly, you need to really need to look at what these words mean from a scriptural lens.
No.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.


Yes salvation for the whole world was accomplished at Calvary, but for us who the law has come to, it still remains an assured promise for us to work towards through hope.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
How instrumental?
A one week child being saved, not being tossed in the lake of fire. Can you explain how faith is instrumental in the salvation of this child, if not, the explanation of how this child is saved apart from faith is what i consider a free gift.

"through faith"

Faith is the instrument, it is the vehicle... it is not meritorious ... it is the same for everyone, faith has an object >>>> Jesus.

Works on the other hand are measurable, quantifiable that is why they have no part in salvation.... where is the measuring stick.

Jesus did all the work... it is done.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Actually I know quite well and absolutely reject everything you have stated above.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

The words are clear to me... if you state that this is a obscure less understood concept and passage and is relative to one's understanding than you might as well state the entire Bible is completely relativistic and open to any and all private interpretation.

Conversation ended.
Hi UG,

Clearly you have not understood what I am saying, because it is not something you can absolutely reject and
be a believer. It is language of black and white, without discussion, empathy or understanding.

Until you can see everything in life is relative to our perspective, you cannot be master of ones perspective
rather than a victim of it.

What you have said simply is your view is the Gods view, and any other view is a private interpretation.
This is where arrogance and pomposity begin. There are as many views as there are people on earth.
It is the Holy Spirit and Jesus who speaks His word to our hearts. And by listening, having fellowship,
a pure heart, praise and living in the shadow of the cross it becomes clear.

So you have not even begun to see the greatness of Gods revelation in scripture.
But I said this was the problem, which you have confirmed. God bless you.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
No.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.


Yes salvation for the whole world was accomplished at Calvary, but for us who the law has come to, it still remains an assured promise for us to work towards through hope.

Not about saving faith.. otherwise called salvific faith.
Faith continues after we are born again.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Conversation ended.
I have to laugh. A conversation has to begin before it can be ended.
Put simply being lectured, and told what must be believed, is not a conversation.
A conversation is taking the other parties views and expression into account.

It would be nice if a conversation began. Maybe this is how people actually think
they relate to others, or is this why they spend so much time here, lol.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
"I will believe (my choice depending on persuasion)"

You are very sly Mr. Noose using my language to bolster your argument.

Once you are persuaded/convicted something is true you do not choose to be persuaded you are already persuaded!

Carry on @posthuman I will be rooting for you!!:)
That part of your argument is actually true, i did not argue against it but is it copyrighted or i can use it somewhere?

Once persuaded, you now believe it. It is still something you do as opposed to someone else doing for you or the Lord doing it for you. Now, if your salvation is dependent on what you believe (do), it is no longer free but dependent on your belief.

why don't you get it.
A crowd of 10. Ask them how many believe in Christ's work. 5 lift there hand and the other five don't. The 5 who lift there hands are saved because of their belief and the other 5 are not saved because of their unbelief. The first 5 played a role in their salvation by believing now that we have established that it is not the Lord who believes on behalf of anyone.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Actually I know quite well and absolutely reject everything you have stated above.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

The words are clear to me... if you state that this is a obscure less understood concept and passage and is relative to one's understanding than you might as well state the entire Bible is completely relativistic and open to any and all private interpretation.

Conversation ended.
If one takes this proposition at its core, each verse, part verse can be taken in isolation, and ones
own view is Gods view, absolutely, only one view, without reference to the rest of scripture or the
Holy Spirit or fellowship in the body or ones own life, the bible could literally mean anything.

Often people say each principle must have at least two references. But going on the size of scripture
you are talking thousands of precepts and ideas. Most of these precepts most "believers" would not
even know how to describe.

This is why ignorance and dismissing things invalidates the pomposity of arrogance and blanket
rejections. But then this is why people go away to carefully study such points, and learn how to
balance them. God bless you
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Not about saving faith.. otherwise called salvific faith.
Faith continues after we are born again.
Two categories of faith are your creation so that something fits. This is not how we should be reading the bible.

These epistles were written miles away and transferred to recepients who read them as they were with no one to tell them " this is salvific faith, this other one is not"
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
"through faith"

Faith is the instrument, it is the vehicle... it is not meritorious ... it is the same for everyone, faith has an object >>>> Jesus.

Works on the other hand are measurable, quantifiable that is why they have no part in salvation.... where is the measuring stick.

Jesus did all the work... it is done.
That one week child if saved then it is not through their faith, their salvation is free from faith. They never heard the gospel and they still don't believe in anything.

It is obviously not through faith. not any category of faith.