Not By Works

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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932
113
I just told you belief is not volitional

A person can believe something that is against their will.
As well sometimes we want to believe something and cannot.

No one can determine to put his or her faith in something. Either they are persuaded as to a proposition or they retain doubt. Doubt precludes faith (Romans 14:23; Jas. 1:6, 7). A single doubt about the gospel offer will keep one from saving faith. The convicting and convincing ministry of both the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is enough to overcome any doubt.
Yet, it is your belief, persuaded or not. You are trying to say salvation is absolutely free, no condition but also say that we have to be persuaded and believe. Doesn't work.

David, full of the spirit of God still planned against God for months. The Holy spirit only gives us understanding, what we do with the understanding is our own choices. The reason the bible says 'do not grieve the Holy spirit'.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Faith is gift, and it is also a work. Without faith we cannot please God. And we choose to exercise
faith. It is a dependency of salvation, without it, there is no fulfilment of the promise.

This needs to be made very clear.
It is what God needs us to do.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11

This is faith that lasts not a flash in the pan.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.
John 15

We only have eternal life if we have faith to the end.

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit
you reap leads to holiness
, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Rom 6

We are one in Christ Jesus, one in our hearts, love ruling all our actions.
Nothing I have written contradicts Hebrews and faith is definitely not a work.

Scripture is clear... somehow you never want to address Paul's very clear teaching....

Romans 4:4

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
Truth encapsulates love not the other way around.
God is love. God is truth. Therefore truth = love and love = truth.
They cannot dominate but are both part of the same reality.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life. Jesus is the Word of God, so every word we have in our hearts
is part of Jesus and part of God. Amen
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,584
10,322
113
55
It is how we maintain it.

We don't do anything to receive it, it was granted us, not only us but the whole world at the cross; before i was born, i was justified.
Initial universalism joined with type 2 works salvation. o_O
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Faith is gift, and it is also a work. Without faith we cannot please God. And we choose to exercise
faith. It is a dependency of salvation, without it, there is no fulfilment of the promise.

This needs to be made very clear.
It is what God needs us to do.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11

This is faith that lasts not a flash in the pan.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.
John 15

We only have eternal life if we have faith to the end.

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit
you reap leads to holiness
, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Rom 6

We are one in Christ Jesus, one in our hearts, love ruling all our actions.
I see faith as that gradually increasing hope of the promises that helps us persevere to the end.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yet, it is your belief, persuaded or not. You are trying to say salvation is absolutely free, no condition but also say that we have to be persuaded and believe. Doesn't work.

David, full of the spirit of God still planned against God for months. The Holy spirit only gives us understanding, what we do with the understanding is our own choices. The reason the bible says 'do not grieve the Holy spirit'.
"Yet, it is your belief, persuaded or not"

Yikes... no one can believe unless they are persuaded.

Wow ... you deny the free gift of salvation.

I guess you are part of the 80% of a poll stating that works have a part in reaching heaven.

Good thing 80% are wrong and Jesus is right... they are on the broad path it would seem.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
God is love. God is truth. Therefore truth = love and love = truth.
They cannot dominate but are both part of the same reality.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life. Jesus is the Word of God, so every word we have in our hearts
is part of Jesus and part of God. Amen
Wrong again... I am the way, the truth, and the life.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
John 16:13
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
"Yet, it is your belief, persuaded or not"

Yikes... no one can believe unless they are persuaded.

Wow ... you deny the free gift of salvation.
How is it a free gift, if you say it is dependent on an individual's belief?

Can anyone be saved, without them believing in Christ's atoning work?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
How is it a free gift, if you say it is dependent on an individual's belief?

Can anyone be saved, without them believing in Christ's atoning work?
How does believing negate that the gift is free.

Believing I have a birthday present is not working for that birthday present... surely this is nonsense.

You just want to define faith as a work to make your works theology work.

Scripture makes a clear delineation between faith and work
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
Nothing I have written contradicts Hebrews and faith is definitely not a work.
Scripture is clear... somehow you never want to address Paul's very clear teaching....
Romans 4:4
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
Let us be honest here. I have never heard that I need to address Romans 4:4 to be legitimate.
If I have never heard this question, how can I answer it, or be accused of not answering it.
Never is a big word. It implies an absolute, unfortunately where an absolute should not be.
Those who want to dismiss someone out of hand but is actually incapable of doing this should
not try such a thing, or it comes across as arrogant, dismissive and slanderous.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4

I am justified by faith alone, working faith, faith that produces works and fruit, that is not dead or passive,
but active and alive.

Now I know where I stand or why I stand. So why is it my language is changed, miss-interpreted, and told
that I am following something I am not.

The truth is, and I mean truth, some support fruitless faith, and claim fruitless faith brings eternal salvation,
while James describes this very faith as dead, brings nothing, has no value and is empty.

I wish I could see another way through, but there is none. The only religion that has a way through is if
you believe you are eternal through a spiritual experience, changing your mind, and then nothing can affect
you. So when Paul says if you sow to the sinful passions and you reap death, he is meaning eternal life.
And when Paul says if you sow to the spirit you reap eternal life, he is meaning rewards, extra goodies.

So death is eternal life, eternal life is rewards. And those who follow Gods will and do His works by His
Spirit are doing the works of the enemy and doomed to hell. You got to admire this thinking, really admire
it, because it has to actually change the words and get them to mean something else than they say, and
then say people are blind to read the words and what they mean and believe them.

At this point it is no longer an argument, it is making up your own truth.
And I am fine that people do this, it is their world and their fate, not mine. God bless you.
It is hard to understand why you would need to do this, or even think it makes sense.
How is it possible to even look in the mirror and do this? But people are so tied to a belief system they
will die for people they are loyal to, no matter what.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,096
4,122
113
Grace is receiving something undeserved. Working for something eliminates grace. The former is biblical; the latter is not. Just my two cents.
Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
How does believing negate that the gift is free.
Means it is conditional and not free. Do something to get it, if you don't do it, you won't have it. This something is what you call belief.

Believing I have a birthday present is not working for that birthday present... surely this is nonsense.

You just want to define faith as a work to make your works theology work.

Scripture makes a clear delineation between faith and work
You can not believe you have a birthday present, you either have it or not. But if you were promised, then you can believe and maintain HOPE until it is given you. You can not hope for something you already have. This is not even how language works; if faith is hope, then you can only hope for what you do not yet have.


What i would consider free gift is:
A one month old child who dies of some diseases. They are saved and not tossed in the lake of fire not because of what they believed but the atoning works of Christ has reconciled everyone back to God. This is perfect love.

But for us who the law has reached. This free perfect gift which means love, we have to abide in His love not again save ourselves by what we choose to believe or what we believe.
This is where the scripture is very clear.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
How is it a free gift, if you say it is dependent on an individual's belief?
Can anyone be saved, without them believing in Christ's atoning work?
They are not being honest with the implied meaning of words.
I can say here is a car, it is a free gift. It does not mean you can fly in the sky with it,
or go on water. It is bound by the limitations and constraints of the gift that make it valuable.

What they are doing is suggesting the free element of the gift effects the capabilities of the gift,
so there are no restrictions on the recipient, even when clearly God has always put restrictions on everything.
Is there anything God has said or done that is without restrictions? Anything?

Noahs flood. Build an ark
Sent from the garden of eden. Work for food, women look up to your husband, pain of child birth.
Moses. Face pharoah, lead the people
Elijah. Face the prophets of Baal
Jonah. Preach to Nineveh
Jesus. Follow, obey, walk the way
Paul. Be pure, Holy, blameless
John. Love from the heart

Everything has commands and restrictions, benefits from following, penalties for failure.
And I mean literally everything.
You need to be brain dead, unquestioning to project God has no restrictions or obligations.

Funny thing is, as soon as they stop reading this, they will reject it all and say their condemnation and
bad feeling is satan and the enemy, so I am the enemy and must be evil.

Now for me, when I get convictions, I rejoice, because I know what I need to learn and walk in, and
then diligently try and seek it out. But then that is what the Holy Spirit does in the heart of the elect.

And by implication, if some feel the opposite, their hearts are telling them something which they dare
not face, and I mean this most sincerely, they resist this with their whole being. It is why their animosity
is so huge and real. It is why they repeat the same empty arguments day after day, because it is all they
have. But what they are unaware of God is using them to train His people how to answer, like Jesus
trained the disciples when Jesus faced the pharisees and teachers of the law, day in and day out.

So dear brothers and sisters, we need to learn these guys, know how they think and why, and what are
the arguments that show the failure. Because we are here to preach to those who God will draw unto
Himself, Amen
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,096
4,122
113
I am not against OSAS.

I try not to use it and ES because even though we do not agree with what others perceive what we believe and tell them so they still attack and continue to falsely accuse. And all they see is OSAS and it's like a red tag to a bull. Not for all of them but for a good good few.

For me ES/OSAS mean the same.
Yes, and it is not ETERNAL, IF YOU CAN LOOSE IT.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
Yes let's be honest ... you first :D
So you agree faith is not a work
Faith is both a gift and a work.
UG I do not understand why you are raising this question. If you cannot see my point, you will just
repeat your own, and then not even know why it does not work from my perspective.

I know why my view does not work from yours, and I will continual put the points to show where the context
is, and you will continually hate this. It is just the way things are.

You cannot change truth, you cannot change these perspective, and I will continue to refine the meaning
and definitions of these truths.

You accused me of bad intentions, of laying a trap, of not being a friend. These are all aggressive rejection
statements. And what you may not see, is I have the best of intentions, but I will not compromise Jesus or
the cross. And I will shine the light always, so those who God enables to see, will see and know that He
is good, and His way is the only way to the Father, amen.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
They are not being honest with the implied meaning of words.
I can say here is a car, it is a free gift. It does not mean you can fly in the sky with it,
or go on water. It is bound by the limitations and constraints of the gift that make it valuable.

What they are doing is suggesting the free element of the gift effects the capabilities of the gift,
so there are no restrictions on the recipient, even when clearly God has always put restrictions on everything.
Is there anything God has said or done that is without restrictions? Anything?

Noahs flood. Build an ark
Sent from the garden of eden. Work for food, women look up to your husband, pain of child birth.
Moses. Face pharoah, lead the people
Elijah. Face the prophets of Baal
Jonah. Preach to Nineveh
Jesus. Follow, obey, walk the way
Paul. Be pure, Holy, blameless
John. Love from the heart

Everything has commands and restrictions, benefits from following, penalties for failure.
And I mean literally everything.
You need to be brain dead, unquestioning to project God has no restrictions or obligations.

Funny thing is, as soon as they stop reading this, they will reject it all and say their condemnation and
bad feeling is satan and the enemy, so I am the enemy and must be evil.

Now for me, when I get convictions, I rejoice, because I know what I need to learn and walk in, and
then diligently try and seek it out. But then that is what the Holy Spirit does in the heart of the elect.

And by implication, if some feel the opposite, their hearts are telling them something which they dare
not face, and I mean this most sincerely, they resist this with their whole being. It is why their animosity
is so huge and real. It is why they repeat the same empty arguments day after day, because it is all they
have. But what they are unaware of God is using them to train His people how to answer, like Jesus
trained the disciples when Jesus faced the pharisees and teachers of the law, day in and day out.

So dear brothers and sisters, we need to learn these guys, know how they think and why, and what are
the arguments that show the failure. Because we are here to preach to those who God will draw unto
Himself, Amen
David in Psalm 119 (especially GSM version), has beautifully described salvation as a road with many road signs (God's commands) and at every junction, God puts a sign to give direction as to which road to follow. And David says, it is keeping of God's commands that takes a man to the destination.
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
I personally believe the "salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." is referring to the RESURRECTION. Getting a glorified body. Im sure VCO agrees with that!

Just saying that in case someone thinks we cant know if we're saved TODAY. WE CAN and SHOULD. If you don't know you're saved today reading this get on your knees and make SURE you KNOW that you KNOW that you are saved!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Means it is conditional and not free. Do something to get it, if you don't do it, you won't have it. This something is what you call belief.



You can not believe you have a birthday present, you either have it or not. But if you were promised, then you can believe and maintain HOPE until it is given you. You can not hope for something you already have. This is not even how language works; if faith is hope, then you can only hope for what you do not yet have.


What i would consider free gift is:
A one month old child who dies of some diseases. They are saved and not tossed in the lake of fire not because of what they believed but the atoning works of Christ has reconciled everyone back to God. This is perfect love.

But for us who the law has reached. This free perfect gift which means love, we have to abide in His love not again save ourselves by what we choose to believe or what we believe.
This is where the scripture is very clear.
You sir are going off into tangents.

We are not talking about the reality of the gift.

The gift is real, it is an objective reality.

Faith is the a conviction that something is true, no work involved.

You are not defining faith, conviction correctly, you need to really need to look at what these words mean from a scriptural lens.