Not By Works

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A

Ariel82

Guest
Here is what my bible notes tell me.

Philippians 2:12-13
Light Bearers
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

2:12 Therefore: Paul desires the Philippians to respond positively to his admonition to have the mind of Christ (vv. 5–8). The command is to the entire group since the word you is plural. The subject is their mutual, corporate salvation (see 1:19, 28; Luke 22:24–30). work out: The Greek term speaks of the present deliverance of the Philippians. The word translated work out is used by the first-century author Strabo to speak of digging silver out of silver mines. Thus salvation can be compared to a huge gift that needs to be unwrapped for one’s thorough enjoyment. Note that Paul is encouraging the Philippians to develop and work out their salvation, but not to work for their salvation. (NKJV)

2:12 Therefore. Because of Christ’s incomparable example (vv. 5–11). obeyed. The commands of God as passed on to the Philippians by Paul (see Ro 1:5; 15:18; 2Co 10:5–6). my presence. During the course of Paul’s second (see Ac 16:12–40) and third (see Ac 20:1–3, 6) missionary journeys. work out your salvation. Work it out to the finish; not a reference to the attempt to earn one’s salvation by works, but a reference to the expression of one’s salvation in spiritual growth and development. Salvation is not merely a gift received once for all; it expresses itself in an ongoing process in which the believer is strenuously involved (cf. Mt 24:13; 1Co 9:24–27; Heb 3:14; 6:9–11; 2Pe 1:5–8)—the process of perseverance, humble service, spiritual growth and maturation. fear and trembling. Not because of doubt or anxiety; rather, the reference is to an active reverence and a singleness of purpose in response to God’s grace. (NIV)


The same man who wrote the above verses also wrote

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Phillipians is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation.
Is Paul encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety? If so thatwould contradict his many other writings concerning peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation.

The Greek word translated "fear" in this context also mean s"reverence" or "respect."
Paul uses the same phrase in

2 Corinthians 7:15
And his affections are greater for you as he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.

Here he talking about Titus and how he was encouraged by the Corinthians acceptance of him with "reference or respect"

To work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold.
The Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition."
This we do by pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification to become Christlike, pressing on towards that goal.

The trembling Paul talks about is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for God.

Trembling also serves another purpose which is to bring us to a dependency on God.

Obedience and and submission to God, who we revere and respect is our reasonable service.

Romans 12:1-2
Chapter 12
Living Sacrifices to God
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation, which is God and the Word of God which tells shows how to and our hearts and minds
coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.
I stand with this statement

"
Obedience and and submission to God, who we revere and respect is our reasonable service."
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
No prob....I believe the post I gave and will say...when one surrenders to the dead body of sin or temptation and sins they GRIEVE the Holy Spirit.....
I stand with Dcon who says when we sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Some folks confuse justification with ongoing sanctification. There are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved from the PRESENCE of sin (ongoing sanctification). 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).
I stand with this statement that salvation has a past, present and future aspect to it.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
You guys have easy believism all wrong...

Easy believism are those who might have a mental assent toward the Gospel but not a real saving faith. False converts, or someone who wants a security blanket but doesn't actually believe. Some of the ones ya'll are attacking for being against false conversion actually believe just like you do and are on the side of the doctrine of grace. I'm with them. True conversion requires real saving faith by grace.

Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”): We live for the glory of God alone.

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace (saved by grace alone through faith alone)
Perseverance of the Saints (the very doctrine you are here defending AKA OSAS absent of works)

While you may not agree with TULIP, it is 100% absent of the works of men and we all agree on the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Easy believism is just a way of saying the person never truly believed, they just recited a prayer that lost meaning once their emotional high or whatever it is wears off. Their faith is not truly in Christ. Maybe they were peer pressured, or scared of death, or agree what people say about Jesus, but have no trust or faith in him. Demons do that last one after all...

No true conversion = no justification, and no justification = no sanctification. We learn this from Romans 8 in regards to those who believe (have real saving faith)

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Has nothing at all to do with works to attain or retain salvation. Has to do with false conversion, mental assent, no saving faith, fakes. We also learn this in 1 John:

1 John 5
Overcoming the World
5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Again, has nothing to do with works to attain or retain salvation, but the born again child of God will strive to obey Christ. If they don't, they get this unless they are illegitimate (in fact, I'm sure we all as children of God experience this from time to time, no?):

Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
I agree that many people have been falsely labeled "easy believism" and think this statement should be re-read.

Whether you support TULIP or not, it's worth reading again.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
After all this talk, do you really not know where I stand or is it just an ad hominem attack?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I will take cake if you are offering some, Dcon.

What is a fluff ball? What you call all those cute kittens Magenta and Blue like to post?
 
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I will take cake if you are offering some, Dcon.

What is a fluff ball? What you call all those cute kittens Magenta and Blue like to post?
A new phrase to accompany cake takers.......what they spew is like fluff balls with no substance....
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
A new phrase to accompany cake takers.......what they spew is like fluff balls with no substance....
Lol I found this definition for "cake taker" it made me laugh..

"cake taker

Someone who offers alternative foods, with the aim of obscuring the real object of their attention - the cake. This selfish creature is not above sneaking back to the fridge once the threat of other would-be eaters has passed, devouring the cake in whole. She will deny her cake lust at all costs, but step away from her coveted jewel for even a moment and you won't see it again.

Example:
You have been invited to a birthday party and the host informs you this is a non-traditional celebration - beware, a cake taker is in your midst."
 
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For sure our daily sanctification in our lives is an ongoing process of faith, maturity and growth and I fully agree we can curb sin, overcome particular sin and be more righteous in our walk as we grow, mature and surrender to his will....HOWEVER....we will not be entirely SINLESS until death and or a glorified body....even the great men and women of faith in the bible had moments of failure and sin...some recorded and some not....DANIEL, David, Peter, Noah, Moses, Abraham etc. all being examples of righteous men who walked after GOD yet had to confess sin......for those who say they were not saved...don't even bother as such foolishness will not be addressed!
Dear DCON,
We are sinless when we repent and confess all of our known sins to Jesus at the very moment we believe His Word...

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jo 1:9)

How great is our God?

God bless you
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Blameless does not equal sinless.

We should all seek to be blameless. Only Jesus was sinless.

****
The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others.
Psalm 15:2-3 | NIV

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Philippians 2:14-16a | NIV
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Blameless does not equal sinless.

We should all seek to be blameless. Only Jesus was sinless.

****
The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others.
Psalm 15:2-3 | NIV

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Philippians 2:14-16a | NIV
Laser-guided - bang on target sister!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Blameless does not equal sinless.

We should all seek to be blameless. Only Jesus was sinless.

****
The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others.
Psalm 15:2-3 | NIV

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Philippians 2:14-16a | NIV
PAUL understood and his path and the more time he spent with Jesus resulted in the following attitude.......

a. I am the least of the Apostles
b. I am the least of the Saints
c. I am the number one chief sinner among men

You are correct....blameless in Christ does not equal sinless.........!
 
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Blameless does not equal sinless.

We should all seek to be blameless. Only Jesus was sinless.

****
The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others.
Psalm 15:2-3 | NIV

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Philippians 2:14-16a | NIV

As I mentioned earlier we are all sinners in need of a savior but our salvation through Jesus is from sin and not in sin by the power of His Word as we believe God. I just believe God's Word when he says...........

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jo 1:9)

Are you saying when you ask Jesus to forgive you that he does not forgive your sins and cleanse you from it? Or are you saying that you only believe God forgives you but does not cleanse you from your sins?

...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom 6:1-2)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:3-11)


May God bless you
 
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PS. Maybe sinless was not the best word to use as it may have a different meanings for some people. Sorry for any confusion on my part. My meaning is that God's Word frees us from Sin and gives us the power to walk in newness of life.

God bless you all
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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As I mentioned earlier we are all sinners in need of a savior but our salvation through Jesus is from sin and not in sin by the power of His Word as we believe God. I just believe God's Word when he says...........

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jo 1:9)

Are you saying when you ask Jesus to forgive you that he does not forgive your sins and cleanse you from it? Or are you saying that you only believe God forgives you but does not cleanse you from your sins?

...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom 6:1-2)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:3-11)


May God bless you
I cannot speak for Ariel, but I do not get the impression that you obviously do get what she is saying.

If one is blameless before God then "obviously" that means that one's sins are forgiven.
It does not necessarily follow that one is sinless.
Scripture like 1 John 1:9 does not prove that the cleansing that is spoken of means that we do not sin and are sinless.
Ratchet back just one verse to 1 John 1:8 for the context and bear in mind the readers of this epistle were believers, they were already Christians, yet John writes this:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

This verse is directed at believers!
But John goes on and then says this:

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
The context is here is not that one's salvation is at risk.
And, finally just to hammer the point home John circles back for emphasis in verse 10:

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10

All of this directed at BELIEVERS.
Perhaps Paul was exactly correct when he dictated this:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a]8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 7:7-24
Again, Paul's readers are believers; what is more Paul is describing his own battle between his spirit and the flesh.
This is a long bit of text but it is important to read the whole thing in a co-ordinated fashion to get the entire argument.

There is no doubt that Paul is suggesting that have have two natures as Christians. Our sin nature is NOT extinguished when we become Christians. Yes, it is superseded by our new regenerated spirit, but what Paul refers to as the flesh (Rom 7:24) sin still abides.

Paul then goes straight on and says this:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:1-11


Again, a long bit of text.
vs 1 starts like this:
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Who are those who are not condemned: those who are in Christ Jesus; those who do not walk according to teh flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Paul spends a lot of time here comparing and contrasting walking in the Spirit versus walking in the flesh.
In verse 9 he clarifies who walks in the Spirit:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
What is the distinguishing feature: the fact that the Spirit of God dwells within you!
The second sentence of the verse restates the same proposition for emphasis.
Sin, or the lack thereof, is NOT the criterion.

Read the entire passage - not just the bits highlighted!

However, Paul is not finished!
He goes on and says this:

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:12-17

If, to be led by Spirit implies leading a perfectly sinless life then it makes an absolute mockery of what Paul says in Romans chapter 7. The thrust of verses 12-14 is definitely to subdue the flesh (read sinful tendencies) and to line ourselves up with the (Holy) Spirit but this cannot guarantee, of itself, that a believer never sins - the war in our members that Paul refers to in Rom 7:23 is very real.

Furthermore, Paul goes on to explain what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In vs 15 the Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Spirit of Adoption". Paul explicitly contrasts the "Spirit of Adoption" with what he calls a "spirit of bondage again to fear". Paul is unmistakably reassuring us about our adoption into the family of God:
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Rom 8:16-17
This is assurance of salvation!

In Ephesians Paul writes this:

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.Eph 2:1-10

The first few verse are very much a summary of what he outlines in Romans chapter 8, but then Paul goes on to make an extraordinary statement:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Our salvation is purely by grace (unmerited favour). Even the faith that we need to believe is supplied by God - it is not ours in the sense that we generated that faith. Then Paul, in explicit contrast, emphasises that our salvation is NOT of works, that there is NOTHING that we can do for ourselves in this context.
Clearly, this means that the "good works" referred to in vs 10 CANNOT in any way impact on our salvation, for good or for bad.

Our works, or lack of them, sin, or lack of sin do not affect our salvation!
Period!
However, our daily walk with God is MASSIVELY affected by whether we sin, whether we confess our sins, whether we are obedient to God in following His lead, as mediated by the Holy Spirit.
It is in this context that John's exhortations in 1 John 1 should be interpreted.

For LoveGodForever: perhaps you are all over this, and, so to speak, what I have shared is "preaching to the choir" but I do know that there are plenty who are confused about salvation, assurance of salvation, and our status before God as believers. The reality of sin, and sin in our lives, inextricably weaves it way through all these issues.


 
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Dear GraceNPeace,

Thank you very much for your thoughts. However, I don’t think you or Ariel got what I was saying earlier. This is perhaps because I used the word sinless in context referring to what I was previously writing about in message 11417. The context that I was using the Word sinless was without sin before God after repentance, confession and faith in the Word of God for those same sins. Could of saved you some time in writing your last post

God Bless you
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Dear GraceNPeace,

Thank you very much for your thoughts. However, I don’t think you or Ariel got what I was saying earlier. This is perhaps because I used the word sinless in context referring to what I was previously writing about in message 11417. The context that I was using the Word sinless was without sin before God after repentance, confession and faith in the Word of God for those same sins. Could of saved you some time in writing your last post

God Bless you
No worries!
 
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No PeterJens..it has always been about salvation by Faith and not works.(the title should give you a clue)
.the fact you can't figure THAT out after years of talking, SHOULD tell you that you might spend a little more time looking in the mirror.
I am sick and tired of false accusations and I am sensitive to people telling lies about my siblings.
Ariel - Seriously you have got to get over yourself. Any group who come in and claim that
future sin is forgiven, repentance in the biblical sense is not needed, or confession, who reject
the sermon on the mount is for believers in every part, are not sound. Now it is a belief system
which one can talk about in theological terms.

Individuals will sign up to various aspects of it, or not. We are talking about this aspect.
Now glorification, the turning of struggling believers into a perfected new creation, I can see.

But compromise with sexual immorality or evil deeds is not a biblical position.
Disowning believers because they do not accept a form of security equally is not biblical.

I would also hold that there is no hope for those who have lost their faith and turned away.
If they come back, amen, but the warning is they will find this impossible. Continuing sin destroys
the conscience and the heart.

How well we can walk as believers is in Pauls words, pleasing to our Father in heaven, in Holiness,
and purity.

Ariel, the real problem is you take it that I am attacking individuals, when rather I am trying to
establish a level of understanding and definition, so we know where we are.

You are so empathetic and identify with a group as if everything is personal, when actually truth
has no partiality.

It maybe over time, the "you are going to hell", "you are sending others to hell" will stop.
Saying people who stand on scripture and Christs victory in righteousness are evil, or preaching
legalism needs to be seen for what it is, animosity and hatred.
Those walking in the rights the cross has given us we should say amen to.

So I pray those who feel condemned by such language embrace the cross and love.

It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable 1 thess 4:3-4

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 thess 4:7

hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil. 1 thess 5:21-22

If we can all agree this, then Amen, Praise the Lord.
Because within these phrases is the expectation of being able to achieve this not
defeat.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Ariel, I am a little surprised at you. Certain people choose to make enemies of others
to expose them for crimes which are not crimes, to make them sound evil and terrible,
to say the worst possible ideas they can dream up, hoping for something to trap them
in. This is making enemies.

And you think this is a straw man. Do you not see this happening day in and day out?
What have I been guilty of? Describing what people believe and how they behave.
I think you have an antagonistic spirit that looks for the alternative interpretation rather
than also looking at the point being made. It might help you to see this is not a battle
but a question of gently shinning a light on peoples emotional states.

I have noticed you have falsely accused me of many emotional positions which I am not
in or have taken. Now if I am not in these places, how are you coming to your conclusions?

It is like if I am accused of insulting, slandering, making people angry. I can do this by just
saying hello. So it needs to be more than this or else it is just ego speaking, and emotional
history. One member confessed they wanted to hurt me, for a long time. We apologised to
each other, when I learnt this. Honestly I do not want to cause harm to people, but I know,
showing their framework fails hurts. But I believe not because of my framework but because
after many years I am secure in Christ.

I was told I was being boastful, or proud, or claiming sinless perfection. So I just have to smile.
Jesus said if they rejected Him, they will also reject you. And these same people respond now
just like they did 2 years ago when I shared about love and Christ being the centre of everything.
I know I fail and need Christ every moment of the day, in everything I do and say.

It is funny people asking me to repent and depend on Christ more, and not on myself. Different
places, different hearts. Sometimes it is not words, it is the waiting on God, just knowing and being,
abiding and praising, lifting up Holy hands to our King.
When are you ever gonna wake up & smell the coffee?