Not By Works
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thats only thing being preached john 3:16 and God is love.That doesn't mean the belief they started out with was not genuine or authentic. It means the word of God that was planted and had sprung up was not retained by that soil because the soil did not allow the word to be nourished and remain in the soil when the heat of trials and temptations came along.
The kind of soil the word is planted in not only determines if the word planted there will be received in faith. The soil the word is planted in also determines if the word originally planted there will be retained in faith.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, unless you believed in vain because the gospel of Christ is not even true to begin with--see vs.14&17--in which case you are not saved if you hold fast the word of a gospel that is not true).
1 John 2:24 NAS
let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
The word of God not continuing in the heart of a person doesn't just mean the lack of genuine faith to begin with in that person. It can also indicate the loss of the genuine faith they started out with. The soil is what determines if the word that saved them will remain in that soil and save them.
It seems that only the person with the good soil of the fourth type can make any boast of not being in danger of ever losing their salvation, for that is the soil that represents people who "have the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."-Luke 8:15 NAS. And from what I'm seeing of the church today, I don't think many of us have that kind of soil in which to make the boast that we can never lose our salvation. I surely don't make that boast. Instead, I heed Paul's warning to not be conceded, but to continue in God's kindness with a good dose of holy fear (Romans 11:20-22).
So you see, this is not just a matter of if the faith a person started out with was really genuine or not. It's all about the soil the word is planted in, and whether or not the word of faith will be sustained in that soil or not. If someone wants to make the boast that they can never ever lose their salvation, they need to become the 4th type of soil, for it is in that kind of soil that the word is held fast and bears fruit to the very end and does not fall away into unbelief.
The kind of soil the word is planted in not only determines if the word planted there will be received in faith. The soil the word is planted in also determines if the word originally planted there will be retained in faith.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, unless you believed in vain because the gospel of Christ is not even true to begin with--see vs.14&17--in which case you are not saved if you hold fast the word of a gospel that is not true).
1 John 2:24 NAS
let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
The word of God not continuing in the heart of a person doesn't just mean the lack of genuine faith to begin with in that person. It can also indicate the loss of the genuine faith they started out with. The soil is what determines if the word that saved them will remain in that soil and save them.
It seems that only the person with the good soil of the fourth type can make any boast of not being in danger of ever losing their salvation, for that is the soil that represents people who "have the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."-Luke 8:15 NAS. And from what I'm seeing of the church today, I don't think many of us have that kind of soil in which to make the boast that we can never lose our salvation. I surely don't make that boast. Instead, I heed Paul's warning to not be conceded, but to continue in God's kindness with a good dose of holy fear (Romans 11:20-22).
So you see, this is not just a matter of if the faith a person started out with was really genuine or not. It's all about the soil the word is planted in, and whether or not the word of faith will be sustained in that soil or not. If someone wants to make the boast that they can never ever lose their salvation, they need to become the 4th type of soil, for it is in that kind of soil that the word is held fast and bears fruit to the very end and does not fall away into unbelief.
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I agree.....salvation is not earned by works.
I'm certainly not here to defend those misguided doctrines.
Salvation is by the faith that continues to the very end.
The works are just the footsteps in the sand of that continuing faith.
Just as Abraham's footsteps were the footsteps of his faith.
No footsteps means no faith.
It either died in that person or was never present to begin with.
I'm certainly not here to defend those misguided doctrines.
Salvation is by the faith that continues to the very end.
The works are just the footsteps in the sand of that continuing faith.
Just as Abraham's footsteps were the footsteps of his faith.
No footsteps means no faith.
It either died in that person or was never present to begin with.
AMEN.....amazing how many false accusations, allegations and pure poppycock was in that post which was void of any spiritual understanding and or contextual truth.........these Cainologists will find out in the MANY group that their view was tragically incorrect.......it also reeks of a complete lack of understanding of sin, our nature after salvation and devalues the JESUS they claim to know to a dime store JEEZUS with no power.
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Paul fully expounded upon grace, the conflict within believers, eternal justification and salvation due to grace and faith and the legalistic Cainologists of his day accused him of the same crap they accuse us of to this very day....tells me all I need to know about those that attack grace and eternal security......same evil spirit, different snakes.....
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Yes, there is certainly a conflict within us. When Jesus returns, we won’t have to struggle with it anymore.
Christians struggle with sin at times. The fact that we do struggle and do not merely yield without a fight is actually a good thing. It’s only bad if we are at peace with and in sin.
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Works are dun and self righteousness are as filthy rags compared to Grace. Doing good works are good, we are repeatedly reminded of that throughout the Epistles. However we are not saved by works but through our faith in His Grace. We are in fact blessed that he not only allows but helps us to do good works for his sake. And it may have some effect upon our station in heaven. Service is an important part as some of the least of us now will be among the greatest in the next life. (After the tribulation.) But meekness and humility are honorable. Doing works for gain is really a selfish reason. God knows our true motives better than we do!
Yes, good works are important. The Bible says many things about good works. But the only people who can do goodworks, works pleasing to God, are people with faith. And people who have faith are already saved, not based on any works they do, but on grace through faith
Faith without works is dead. But works are not what makes faith alive.
Faith without works is dead. But works are not what makes faith alive.
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What takes the cake is the fact that the workers for, cainologists and modern Pharisees quote the parables of JESUS as some go to verses to prove the loss of salvation and or some idiotic working for dogma to get saved or remain saved while being oblivious to the fact that the parables were primarily directed and given to contradict the Phariseeism crap that was being peddled in his day....ONE such parable is constantly peddled by Ralph in this this thread....the unmerciful debtor.......but carry on.....I cannot stress enough that there are a few in this thread peddling dogma that is not of GOD and that which will lead men to hell!
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WOW, your answer is incredibly on the Naive side, in fact it is really on a very Naive side.
You really think YOU CAN after you are BORN AGAIN, do something that is totally against HIS WILL ? ? ?
Do you think you are more powerful than GOD, or JUST DON'T KNOW GOD ? ? ?
With GOD IN YOU, (that is the PART YOU TOTALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND), So YOU THINK WE CAN UPSET GOD's PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE ? ? ?
After you are truly BORN AGAIN, your human spirit, HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, who will NEVER LEAVE, John 14:16, and the MIND OF CHRIST, 1 Cor. 2:16. They are literally IN YOU, IF YOU ARE BORN AGAIN. So you think YOU CAN OVER RULE THEM ? ? ? Are there disciples that Do Not have the Holy Spirit and the Mind of Christ IN THEM. Yes, and that is called Not BORN AGAIN. Not BORN AGAIN disciples are on the broad road heading towards the Destruction of Hades/Hell.
I normally do not quote the New Century Version, but you need it, to make sure you can understand it:
Isaiah 43:10-13 (NCV)
10 The LORD says, “You are my witnesses and the servant I chose. I chose you so you would know and believe me, so you would understand that I am the true God. There was no God before me, and there will be no God after me.
11 I myself am the LORD; I am the only Savior.
12 I myself have spoken to you, saved you, and told you these things. It was not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses, and I am God,“ says the LORD.
13 “I have always been God. No one can save people from my power; when I do something, no one can change it.“
That is absolutely TRUE about BOTH HIS JUSTICE, and HIS GRACE AND MERCY. You yourself CANNOT CHANGE once you are REALLY SAVED, BECAUSE YOU ARE CONTROLLED BY THE POWER OF GOD, 1 Peter 1:3-5. IT BECOMES OUR WILL to do what Pleases HIM. NO, we are not PERFECT, but the CONTINUOUS Direction of our LIFE will be to strive to do what Pleases HIM, and when we fail, we will automatically go to 1 John 1:9 and CONFESS IT, and get right back up GOING TOWARDS the Direction that PLEASES HIM.
We I was SAVED after my third attempt at SUICIDE, the last week of 1977; the OVERWHELMING WAVE, AFTER WAVE, AFTER WAVE of GUILT WASHED OVER ME as I Mourned. I CRIED LIKE A BABY, BEGGING HIM to FORGIVE ME FOR MY WHOLE LIFE STYLE, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I fell from my kneeling position to a prostrate Position face down. Then something unusual happened to me. I usually do not tell this part of my Testimony to someone that is just an acquaintance or adversary. So do not make me regret this.
After Several minutes of laying face down on my bedroom floor, I had a Vision or Dream, I can't tell which it was. But in that Vision or Dream, I was at the FOOT OF HIS CROSS on my knees, Crying and Reaching up to HIM, and still begging HIM TO FORGIVE ME, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I know every one of my SINS was like a one pound weight pulling down on those nails. Then I looked at the NAILS, and to my surprise, they were THROUGH HIS WRISTS, not HIS HANDS. I had never heard anything like that from the CHURCH that I attended thought the nails were only in his hands. {Years later I saw a Christian Medical Doctor, who explained that they had to be in HIS wrists because in the Hands they would have torn through the Flesh in HIS hands, and he added "That makes no difference, because Jews in that day, considered the WRISTS to be Part of the Hands."}
As I was Crying and Reaching up to Him, from my kneeling position, THE HOLY SPIRIT must have given me A PRAYER, that I had NEVER HEARD BEFORE, I PRAYED WITH MY WHOLE HEART, "Lord FORGIVE ME, Lord FORGIVE ME. I you have a purpose for my life, YOU are going to have to come in me and run my LIFE, because I CAN NOT DO IT. I am making a Mess Out of it." I looked up at the NAILS in HIS Wrists, and saw the blood come dripping out and fell on my forearms, and that BLOOD WAS WARM! I KNEW I WAS FORGIVEN at that moment, AND I knew that prayer I prayed was a COMPLETE SURRENDER TO HIM, HE HAD ALL OF ME.
That is where the Vision or DREAM ended, But if it was a DREAM, it was the MOST VIVID DREAM THAT I HAVE EVER HAD IN MY WHOLE LIFE. AND DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE? WOW, did HE EVER. Part of this mornings SERMON, my Pastor taught, and made this COMMENT, that literally is the story of my life. Pastor Gil said, "Everything HE commands me to do, HE will EMPOWER me to do it."
How does that relate to me? Without going into detail, HE eventually put on my heart to MOVE WEST of Nebraska, and I did not know why. We settled in California about small town 90 miles northwest of Reno, NV. It was there where I volunteered to visit one Inmate at a time, to help disciple him. HE put in on my heart to MOVE WEST AGAIN, but this time HE TOLD ME WHY. HE wanted me to start a Prison Ministry, in a new Prison just being built on the Coast.
I had NO BIBLE COLLEGE, I had no idea how to Start a Prison Ministry, or How to get in touch with someone at the Prison to Volunteer, but I KNEW JESUS WOULD HELP ME TO DO HIS WILL. So we moved to the COAST to Where I started a Prison Ministry. Makes no sense you say, My Boss was JESUS CHRIST AND HE LED ME EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. ALL IT DID WAS TRUST HIM TO DO IT THROUGH ME.
I had Never been the PULPIT, and the First time a Pastor forgot it was his Sunday to teach the Sermon in Minimum Yard, (I had to escort the Pastor in) and by 5 minutes after time to Start the Service, I REALIZED the Pastor FORGOT, and I HAD TO PREACH, and yes, my knees turned to JELLO, but I KNEW HE KNEW HOW TO PREACH. So I Trusted HIM, when in the Chapel Office got down on my knees and PRAYED, "Lord God, You will have to give me what you wanted to be Said in this message, all I have is a few of the Salvation Verses, written in the back of me Bible, if you would like that to be the Sermon, I will Trust You to GIVE ME THE WORDS. In Jesus Name, AMEN." IT WORKED, AMAZINGLY as I TRUSTED HIM. So well, I wanted to take notes as HE preached through me.
After that the Head Chaplain asked me to take over the Wednesday night SERVICE and Sunday After Noon Service. I was working at the Post Office, and for ministry, I a Volunteer Chaplain, and did the Sunday afternoon Service in Minimum Yard, Wednesday Evening Service, and on Thursday night went into the Security Housing Unit {the Hole}. My Grandfather taught me IF IT WORKS DON'T FIX IT. So I trusted the Lord to Give what He wanted said in the Sermons every week, and trust the Lord to bring something into my life, to tell me what HE WANTED ME TO TEACH NEXT. I only gathered the appropriate verses, and HE WAS FAITHFUL, while I was just the busboy serving the FOOD, and as far as I am concerned HE DID IT ALL THROUGH ME, and all I did was want to be USED. That's right, I never wrote out a SERMON, I only gathered a few verses on a particular subject, and then TRUSTED HIM TOTALLY TO GIVE ME WHAT TO SAY.
You doubt, you devise hypothetical situations based on man's weaknesses without GOD, you say a man will can over ride GOD'S will, etc.;
BUT I HAVE BEEN THERE, AND I SAY THAT GOD IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DO IT THROUGH ME, AND TO KEEP MY SALVATION SECURE.
Read this again: Isaiah 43:10-13
Isaiah 46:11-12 (NIV)
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV) [Both Roads only have disciples on it, unbelievers are not even pictured in this Parable.]
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life [Born Again], and only a few find it.
James is referring to Genesis 22 when he speaks of Abraham being justified by works:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? - James 2:21
9 ...Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar...
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven... 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:9-12 NAS
Earlier, Abraham was justified by believing what God told him. Then in chapter 22 above he was justified by obeying what God told him to do. God saw it (the angel of the Lord, actually) and he was justified by what he did. James is saying the saved person is justified by both, what he believes, and what he does, and not by faith that is 'alone'.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:24
The person who thinks they can be saved by faith 'alone' and don't have to have the footsteps that correspond with that faith is in for a rude awaking when Jesus comes back. Faith that can not be validated by what it does is dead faith and is a 'faith' that can not save you. Not even Paul said the faith that justifies apart from works is 'alone'. Even in his doctrine the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that finds it's expression in it's obedience to God, specifically the obedience to love (the summation of all of the commands of God).
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love. - Galatians 5:5-6
Faith that obeys, that is the faith that justifies apart from works and which saves you.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? - James 2:21
9 ...Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar...
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven... 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:9-12 NAS
Earlier, Abraham was justified by believing what God told him. Then in chapter 22 above he was justified by obeying what God told him to do. God saw it (the angel of the Lord, actually) and he was justified by what he did. James is saying the saved person is justified by both, what he believes, and what he does, and not by faith that is 'alone'.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:24
The person who thinks they can be saved by faith 'alone' and don't have to have the footsteps that correspond with that faith is in for a rude awaking when Jesus comes back. Faith that can not be validated by what it does is dead faith and is a 'faith' that can not save you. Not even Paul said the faith that justifies apart from works is 'alone'. Even in his doctrine the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that finds it's expression in it's obedience to God, specifically the obedience to love (the summation of all of the commands of God).
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love. - Galatians 5:5-6
Faith that obeys, that is the faith that justifies apart from works and which saves you.