Not By Works

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Take these scriptures at face value without distorrting twisting and intellectualising this to force fit your doctrines. Take it in pure simple English.

Luke 6
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
So we can have a situation of someone who hears the Gospel, calls upon Jesus, sits back because he is told that HE is now eternally secure and NO WORKS can do anything to save him. Yet he misunderstands this. He is pacified that the risk (of damnation) is past. His flesh comforts him that its not necessary to press into God, to hear what God has to say about things. He doesn't read the bible. He doesn't pray. But in his mind he is totally secure. He made a real choice to believe in Jesus at the start. But he did not go on with the journey. He gladly calls upon the name of the Lord. He believes he loves the Lord. But he also loves certain vices. The risk of participating in these vices is fairly low because God is a loving God who has forgiven all sins, past, present and future he was told. So there is NOTHING that God has not forgiven according to his belief. He reasons within himself that maybe God might be a bit disappointed with him, and was told that this may mean that some of these things might be burned up when he makes it to heaven, and possibly his mansion might not be as large as it might have been if he sacrificed a bit more in this life. But, hey, heaven itself is not that bad a deal anyway.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun and that time and chance happen unto all.........he also said that life sucks then you die (in so many words)
does chance there mean like fate. in my bible its translated as fate or destiny in finnish. to me in english i think of chance as in "random events" dont know which translation is right
 
Nov 24, 2019
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And what does it mean since generally folks really do not know?
I am SO glad you asked!!

Jesus preached the Good News of the Kingdom of God and also demonstrated it. He said if we had faith in Him, we would do the same. And He gave us, His disciples, the command to seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness. He not only gave us the command but lived the example for us. He did nothing on His own initiative. The initiative was the Father's. As His disciples, the initiative for us today is to be Jesus'. Upon Him do we wait all the day. Living in the Spirit like this, we will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Right there with Him, so near His rod and His staff, the wolves are far from us. Being under His authority, we exhibit not only fruit of the Spirit but also gifts; love and also love in action. After all, the Kingdom of God does not exist in words but in power and neither Jesus nor the Scriptures left any program for change before the end of the age.

"To the one who pleases Him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness. But to the sinner, He gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth only to hand it over to the one who pleases Him." Ecc.2:6 or so. And in Psalm 125 or so, "In vain you rise up early and stay up late toiling for food to eat, for while they sleep He provides for those He loves." And repeatedly in His Word, He has promised to love those who love Him, i.e., those who obey Him. This is no "sloppy Agape".

I used to sit under the ministry of a man who stated that "the only problem with a living sacrifice is that it is always crawling off the altar." We can chuckle at that because we know what that means but it really isn't valid for a disciple who has denied himself and must continue doing so daily. "I have set the Lord before me continually" the Psalmist said. Isaiah 64:4 has always meant a great deal to me in this context: "Since ancient times, no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him."

In this connection, we are always telling our children to "live in the moment." They begin to ask all kinds of questions about what we're going to do in the future but "the wind blows wherever it pleases, you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." And this Gospel by which Jesus becomes Head over all things for the disciple is the one they have heard since they were in utero. But we simply tell them that sheep don't tug at the shepherd's clothes asking about where they're going next.

We had a beautiful example of this principle last night at Bible study. When Scripture states "When you come together everyone has a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church." The fact that that's so alien points to the problem. If Jesus isn't Lord of all, He's not Lord at all. "The preacher" isn't the one who should "give the message". The bulletin, or "how we always do it" isn't what is supposed to be followed. The Holy Spirit is.

So we come together and wait for what song we should sing. After that, I was led to ask each person what their one prayer request for 2020 would be. And you can feel God's presence when His will is being done. He was in what we were doing. We felt we should write them down. Then when we go to the Word, we listen for where we should go. Psalm 61 was where we were directed and it is a Psalm that begins, "Hear my cry, O God; listen to my prayer. From the ends of the earth I call to You, I call as my heart grows faint..." And they commented before I did that this was God. So I got to reiterate how we must live in the moment and that as we let Him lead that He is speaking to us, He is listening to us and His desire is to answer and we went again to Luke 18 and touched on the example of the widow and also of Elijah and what fervent prayer is like. And the requests weren't the kind asked with wrong motives so that they could spend what they get on their pleasures - no one was asking for a pony or stuff like that.

I believe in the Greek in the sermon on the mount, Jesus' statement that "You cannot serve both God and money" actually is "You cannot work for God and money". Like many of the Jews of Jesus' time, many Christians today are lovers of money, i.e. idolaters. I haven't had a "real job" since 1996 since the Lord began teaching me this. I haven't had a paycheck since that time. And yet we have abundance. Derek Prince stated, "Jesus didn't carry a lot of cash but He always had His Father's credit card and it was accepted everywhere He went." That's a good way of stating it. Obviously I work but the yoke I have on is not one put on for the purpose of getting money but for the purpose of doing His will.

What am I going to do today? I don't know. I'm going to listen to the Master. He is the good Shepherd. It's not a religion - it's a relationship.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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The figures are for average life expectancy. A lot of people living "longer" had to do with childhood disease that was eliminated with vaccinations. Often those were tragic and traumatic deaths. Also a lot of young people died during the wars. Right now the drug epidemic is starting to reverse the rate so people are no longer living longer. During the 1,000 year reign of Christ people will live an average of 100 years and be considered to be cursed if they do not live a full life. ""Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." (Isaiah 65:20) The Bible tells us that there will be a drug epidemic that will cause people to be thrown into the lake of fire. "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev21:8) The word for "sorcerers" is the same word we get Pharmacy from: pharmakois.
wow. does pharmakois also mean you cant take prescription drugs? i dont have any now praises to God

if i need i will take painkillers but i wont take any mental medication like depression pills or xanax those are toxic i believe mind altering. i think alcohol is better hahahaha my friend alcohol. no really guys im sober right now for a long time even spent new year sober, but atleast alcohol is biblical.

you believe pharmakois is those mental medication?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Anxiety is not a new thing.

"6Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:6-7


"25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life e ?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." - Matthew 5:25-34
amen to all but also easier said than done to all.

i dont know how not to be anxious about anything.

be honest has anyone of you been able to do it? are you not anxious about anything ever? this is to everyone reading please tell me if you reach that point and how did you do it?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Abraham did not do any actual work!!!? I see. Now I know Since Abraham did not do any work then he could not be justified by any work. When prophets or wise men such as yourself give such clarification I can only be silent.

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Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
you dont know about this topic so its better to be quiet really.

Spiritual Status: unsure

says in your profile why should we listen to someone who isnt sure he is christian? why would anyone listen to your view who is christian? think about it. why would you take your car to a plumber? why would you call in a blacksmith to fix your plumbing?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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If you are living in unrepentant sin, I can assure you that your faith is not where it needs to be. You need to deal with it. How can you go to God and say your works are evidence of your faith in Him, when he points out to you that you actively chose disobedience over obedience to His word?
and here we have the bottom of the rabbit hole- sinless perfectionism.

you denied teaching this, accused me of making a false accusation, and right here you are, strongly implying it.

and, as far as the writer of Hebrews goes, Israel , when God delivered them ( as they rebelled and complained all the way), they refused to go in because of unbelief , the unbelief that God could subdue the nations of cannan.

so, God , in spite of their sin and unbelief, took them to the Promised Land, and they refused to go in.

God did NOT take away their salvation, they forfeited it by not believing . ( not trusting God, not having confidence in Him)
just as the greek launuage defines belief.

so, beliving is trusting and having confidence in Jesus. then obedience follows. as a result, not a cause.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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amen to all but also easier said than done to all.

i dont know how not to be anxious about anything.

be honest has anyone of you been able to do it? are you not anxious about anything ever? this is to everyone reading please tell me if you reach that point and how did you do it?
Not real good at it, lol. But the times that I have overcome anxiety it was because I remembered how in past times of being anxious about something God made a way when there seemed to be no way. You'll grow from your experiences. There is no other way it seems.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Why is it necessary to FIGHT the good fight of faith? Why is it necessary to LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE. You see none of your explanations hold when it comes to the plain word of God. Why?
Are you implying that we fight the good fight of faith to maintain salvation? You seem to believe that's all the Christian life is about. The implication seems to be only if we fight hard enough, then we will finally lay hold of eternal life based on the merits of our performance. I can understand why works-salvationists strongly oppose OSAS. It's all about "our performance" with them and not grace through faith.

Because according to you once a faith is genuine, then they cannot lose it. Then why the FIGHT? That involves belief and action. And if its a fight, who are we fighting against? If its a fight there necessarily implies victory or loss. So what is the consequence of the loss of the fight? What happens to those who lose the fight of faith? Can anyone obtain salvation without faith?
Who said this fight was about maintaining salvation through faith? Genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Our victory is through faith in Christ and He is the author and finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2) and He completes the good He began in us/carries it on to completion. (Philippians 1:6)

Why is it necessary to Lay Hold on Eternal Life? According to you it is a done deal, and something that was finalised at the start. So why is this an instruction from Paul going forward?
It's an exhortation and not a warning about losing salvation. Believers are to fight the good fight of faith and get a grip on the realty of matters associated with eternal life and live with a heavenly perspective. The Christian life is one of spiritual battle. Yet the Lord does not forsake His saints and they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28) :)

Therein lies the problem with your doctrine. Other things in scripture begin to pop out of balance and wobble.
There is no problem with my doctrine and here is the problem with your biased doctrine. 1 Timothy 6:12 says the people who are exhorted to fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life are called and in Romans 8:30, notice also that such people were called. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. (y)
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Abraham did not do any actual work!!!? I see. Now I know Since Abraham did not do any work then he could not be justified by any work. When prophets or wise men such as yourself give such clarification I can only be silent.

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Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham was justified DECADES before he offered Isaac. I think about 20 years between justified by faith and the offering of Isaac.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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you are saying it. just not directly.

you see, when you try to prop James up a salvation process by itself, and selectively edit Scripture to make it appear that faith and works both save, that is wrong. and dishonest.

belief in Christ alone is all it takes for one to saved. the good works will follow.
Justified by faith alone. Raised to spiritual life by faith alone. Works follow out of no other motive besides love for God and man, which love comes from above in the first place.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Justified by faith alone. Raised to spiritual life by faith alone. Works follow out of no other motive besides love for God and man, which love comes from above in the first place.
remember works that dont come from love dont even count
 
Dec 6, 2019
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You are correct. Belief includes obedience because obedience stems from Belief.
The corrollary: Disobedience stems from Unbelief.

So you say you have Faith (Belief) in God? Then there is obedience. Simple.
But the only obedience required in the new birth is repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. Other obedience’s are impossible until you are raised to spiritual life. That is, until we are raised to spiritual life, we are under the Laws dominion, which requires perfection

God justified and imputes Christ’s righteousness to us through faith. And He raises us to spiritual life through faith. And from henceforth, we walk by faith. Faith to faith.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
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you dont know about this topic so its better to be quiet really.

Spiritual Status: unsure

says in your profile why should we listen to someone who isnt sure he is christian? why would anyone listen to your view who is christian? think about it. why would you take your car to a plumber? why would you call in a blacksmith to fix your plumbing?
Yes Sir.
unless directly mentioned and I am moved to speak I will remain silent on this topic from now on.
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1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Are not all things of God "to include Christians, Non Christians, and those who are uncertain" to reward and punish as he pleases?

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Seems better to be an unsure Gentile and doer of the law to be a lukewarm Christian with faithless works in my opinion "Not saying you are or aren't".

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
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Luckily the church of Laodicieans don't need to worry about no works just faith alone; Because works is just Old Covenant or nailed to the cross according to certain wisemen and prophets in here.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
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It is a narrow path and I rather put unsure or not applicable than put christian. I used the best available option.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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But the only obedience required in the new birth is repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. Other obedience’s are impossible until you are raised to spiritual life. That is, until we are raised to spiritual life, we are under the Laws dominion, which requires perfection

God justified and imputes Christ’s righteousness to us through faith. And He raises us to spiritual life through faith. And from henceforth, we walk by faith. Faith to faith.
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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It is a narrow path and I rather put unsure or not applicable than put christian. I used the best available option.
why arent you sure you are christian ? whats wrong? i think we need to be sure we are in Christ and not doubt always. according to your faith let it happen to you. as a man thinks in his heart so is he.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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But the only obedience required in the new birth is repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. Other obedience’s are impossible until you are raised to spiritual life. That is, until we are raised to spiritual life, we are under the Laws dominion, which requires perfection

God justified and imputes Christ’s righteousness to us through faith. And He raises us to spiritual life through faith. And from henceforth, we walk by faith. Faith to faith.
What you said is correct. Where the dis-connect comes with many who debate here is on the topic of ongoing faith. They have isolated faith and salvation at a SPECIFIC point in time. Therefore it becomes quite legalistic from that point onwards with claims of people not being required to (1) continue in the faith (2) not being able to shrink back from the faith (3) not being able to do ANYTHING that could cause a loss of salvation (4) no need for repentance (just a few posts ago you see this one). (5) No need to fight the good fight of faith.....and I could go on and on.

The legalistic part is that they will go to God and claim the promises of eternal salvation, but have overlooked so many things that are part and parcel of our walk with God (e.g. points 1 to 5 above). When challenged, many excuses are thrown up like (1) well this wasn't a REAL believer (2) you are now using works to earn your salvation etc etc.

Belief is a choice. When presented with information you have the choice to believe that information or disbelieve. When presented with the gospel, many choose to believe in the saving power of Christ. But we are on a PILGRIMS JOURNEY through this world. We will continue to be given new information. There are many false prophets and false teachers who will present other information to you. You are free to choose to believe that information (with the risk of your faith being shattered), or continuing to cling to Jesus, The Cross and Him Crucified. It is still a choice. We have filters (the Word of God / Bible / Holy Spirit) which/who who help keep us on the path (led by the Spirit). But we could also sow seeds which are destructive to our faith - listening to and heeding these false teachings. The bible is clear that the faith of some were overthrown.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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ok guys i have to vent here im really frustrated im ready to break my keyboard

so there is new store here. and there is some thing called smart-cart. like shopping cart with electric thing on it and i dont know how to use a store anymore. even in the new store, all the prices are on those electronic things instead of just pieces of paper saying this costs 20,00€ this cost 5€ etc. so ridicilous im only 27 and i dont know how to do anything im behind in technology im living in an alternative universe i dont even exist.

im 27 i fell off. i dont have laptop or smart phones or ipad or macbook. ive never used smart phone or ipad or macbook in my life i promise. i own an old desktop computer with cheap mouse and keyboard and old phone with no camera but it can make cals and send text messages. im redneck i dont know how to go to store anymore i am ashamed to ask how to use those smartcarts

i cant understand it why is everything so complicated? is the devil just trying to make people look stupid. i hit my head some time ago i havent been same ever since im slow in the head so i dont like to learn new things.