Not By Works

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Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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It will to some degree BUT how can one quantify and qualify such works
You quantify it by the increase of those works in your life:

"8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure..." 2 Peter 1:8
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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I mean, I agree that is horrible.
It would be great if everybody believed and avoided such a fate.
But the harsh reality is most will not.
Most will love their unrighteousness more than God and choose to live in that unrighteousness and will be condemned when He returns.
That person will be cursed and burned:
You are referencing believers here... you clearly stated no works ... no salvation!
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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You are referencing believers here... you clearly stated no works ... no salvation!
No, I'm referencing those who never believed and those who have stopped believing.
No believer will ever come under the curse and condemnation of God.
They are protected by God's power through their faith (1 Peter 1:5).
That's why we need to continue in the believing we started out in.
If we don't, and we refuse all of God's efforts to bring us back to faith in Christ, and he turns us over to our unbelief, we will be condemned when Christ returns, not saved.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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No, I'm referencing those who never believed and those who have stopped believing.
No believer will ever come under the curse and condemnation of God.
They are protected by God's power through their faith (1 Peter 1:5).
That's why we need to continue in the believing we started out in.
If we don't, and we refuse all of God's efforts to bring us back to faith in Christ, and he turns us over to our unbelief, we will be condemned when Christ returns, not saved.
I thought you said that no works meant no salvation, now you are back to one who stops believing .

you are all over the place .

that happens when someone does not really know what they are talking about ....
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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No, I'm referencing those who never believed and those who have stopped believing.
There is only one group "saved"

Jesus says so...

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior . . . Titus 3:4-6 (NASB)
 

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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That person will be cursed and burned:

"8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:8

Ultimately, in the end, no change of character, no new creation, means no new life through faith in Christ. In that same passage the author talks about the things that do accompany, or have to do with, salvation:

"9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them." - Hebrews 6:9-10

Love for God expressed in love for others, particularly the church, is what ultimately accompanies genuine salvation. In the end, without it you are showing yourself to not love God and belong to Him.

"20 ...whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 ...Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister." - 1 John 4:20-21

"1 ...everyone who loves the father loves his child as well." - 1 John 5:1
Producing nothing isn’t producing thorns.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Producing nothing isn’t producing thorns.

Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me,
‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,
I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

It is not about what WE can do, It is all about letting HIM DO IT THROUGH YOU.

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is {Agape} love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


HE searches the HEART for the MOTIVE you Serve HIM.

IF IT IS NOT SINCERE AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM, IT IS NOTHING BUT FILTHY RAGS.

Serving HIM is NEVER A BURDEN, when you do it because you want to do it, out of pure AGAPE LOVE.

Producing NOTHING is every bit as bad as producing THORNS.

The results are exactly the same:

23 Then I will announce to them,I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me,
‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,
I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

It is not about what WE can do, It is all about letting HIM DO IT THROUGH YOU.

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is {Agape} love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


HE searches the HEART for the MOTIVE you Serve HIM.

IF IT IS NOT SINCERE AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM, IT IS NOTHING BUT FILTHY RAGS.

Serving HIM is NEVER A BURDEN, when you do it because you want to do it, out of pure AGAPE LOVE.

Producing NOTHING is every bit as bad as producing THORNS.

The results are exactly the same:

23 Then I will announce to them,I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
There are people who refuse to produce. That refusal in and of itself is a thorn. On the other hand there are people who can’t produce. Jesus will not deny them or forsake them.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Producing nothing isn’t producing thorns.
Thorny bushes aren't fruit bearing plants.

"Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:16

That's way different than a fruit bearing plant that's in a season of no fruit.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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535
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No, I'm referencing those who never believed and those who have stopped believing.
There is only one group "saved"

Jesus says so...

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior . . . Titus 3:4-6 (NASB)
The highlighted part, 'He saved us'.
What's the point you're trying to make?
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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There are people who refuse to produce. That refusal in and of itself is a thorn. On the other hand there are people who can’t produce. Jesus will not deny them or forsake them.
If the reason you are not producing is because you went back to unbelief you will not be saved when Jesus comes back.
That's way different than not producing because you are an immature believer.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Oh sure....how much works, for how long, the perennial, ongoing question no one can answer.
I've answered this a few times already recently.
It's not a number, it's whether or not the qualities of the Spirit are increasing in your life:

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins." - 2 Peter 1:8-9

'Believers' who don't have this increase in righteous character/works are not retaining the true gospel in their hearts and minds. They have fallen away, or are falling away from faith in Christ. (Of course, there is always the possibility that they never heard the true gospel, but a perverted one instead, and that is the cause of their lack of godly character/works.)

Saved people living for Christ in faith have a changed/changing life. That change is the result of the retention of, and love for the true gospel message in their heart and their ongoing faith and trust in Christ's forgiveness.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I've answered this a few times already recently.
It's not a number, it's whether or not the qualities of the Spirit are increasing in your life:

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins." - 2 Peter 1:8-9

'Believers' who don't have this increase in righteous character/works are not retaining the true gospel in their hearts and minds. They have fallen away, or are falling away from faith in Christ. (Of course, there is always the possibility that they never heard the true gospel, but a perverted one instead, and that is the cause of their lack of godly character/works.)

Saved people living for Christ in faith have a changed/changing life. That change is the result of the retention of, and love for the true gospel message in their heart and their ongoing faith and trust in Christ's forgiveness.
increasing
So ONE work is not enough, there has to be a least TWO to show increase.

When you add to scripture it does not take long for things to become absurd.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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There are people who refuse to produce. That refusal in and of itself is a thorn. On the other hand there are people who can’t produce. Jesus will not deny them or forsake them.


YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT COMPUTE!

If you are physically unable, you can PRAY FOR OTHERS. IT IS ALL A MATTER OF AGAPE LOVE, and if you are TRULY Born Again, it WILL come out of you.

The Parable of the SOWER, IT SHOWS, everyone who is Born Again WILL PRODUCE SOME Agape Love for GOD, and for SOMEONE ELSE.

Matthew 13:8-9 (HCSB)
8 Still others fell on good ground and produced a crop: some 100, some 60, and some 30 times ⌊what was sown⌋.
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!”

Only the Good Soil are the BORN AGAIN Christians.

There are four types of Soil listed in the Parable, and they are lifestyle characteristics in the Hearts of human beings.

4. The Soil that is a HARD PATH, is a stone cold unbeliever.

3. The Soil of ROCKY GROUND, is only a Disciple (only means Follower), NEVER been Born Again, will fall away, NO AGAPE LOVE in him.

2. The Soil with lots of THORNS, is only a Disciple (only means Follower), NEVER been Born Again, will fall away, the THORNS choked it out.

1. THE GOOD SOIL, IS A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, AND WILL PRODUCE A HARVEST OF FRUIT. Some 100, some 60, and some 30 times.


ONLY the number 1. Soil WILL produce this kind of FRUIT:


Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is {AGAPE} love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we {AGAPE} love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—
how can God’s {AGAPE} love {Rom. 5:5} reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT COMPUTE!

If you are physically unable, you can PRAY FOR OTHERS. IT IS ALL A MATTER OF AGAPE LOVE, and if you are TRULY Born Again, it WILL come out of you.

The Parable of the SOWER, IT SHOWS, everyone who is Born Again WILL PRODUCE SOME Agape Love for GOD, and for SOMEONE ELSE.

Matthew 13:8-9 (HCSB)
8 Still others fell on good ground and produced a crop: some 100, some 60, and some 30 times ⌊what was sown⌋.
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!”

Only the Good Soil are the BORN AGAIN Christians.

There are four types of Soil listed in the Parable, and they are lifestyle characteristics in the Hearts of human beings.

4. The Soil that is a HARD PATH, is a stone cold unbeliever.

3. The Soil of ROCKY GROUND, is only a Disciple (only means Follower), NEVER been Born Again, will fall away, NO AGAPE LOVE in him.

2. The Soil with lots of THORNS, is only a Disciple (only means Follower), NEVER been Born Again, will fall away, the THORNS choked it out.

1. THE GOOD SOIL, IS A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, AND WILL PRODUCE A HARVEST OF FRUIT. Some 100, some 60, and some 30 times.


ONLY the number 1. Soil WILL produce this kind of FRUIT:


Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is {AGAPE} love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we {AGAPE} love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—
how can God’s {AGAPE} love {Rom. 5:5} reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
VCO, how do you view the passage from
1 Corinthians 3:9-15? What does Paul mean in verses 11-15? Thank you.:)
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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535
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So ONE work is not enough, there has to be a least TWO to show increase.

When you add to scripture it does not take long for things to become absurd.
What is it about "if you possess these qualities in increasing measure" (2 Peter 1:8) that you do not understand?

In the 10,000 ft. view of things, if you're not changing, even a little, you're not saved.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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It's funny how you osas'ers boast of God's incredible grace and power in salvation, and rightfully so, but you have no such boast of his equally powerful grace in making the believer a different person.

"12 It (grace) teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" - Titus 2:12

Instead you write off every scripture about God's grace in changing the life of the believer into nothing more than a works gospel. Apparently, God's grace is not teaching you about growing up into godliness. Osas is really messed up.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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VCO, how do you view the passage from
1 Corinthians 3:9-15? What does Paul mean in verses 11-15? Thank you.:)
This is an open forum, so I'm chiming in.

The 'work' being spoken about is other people you have ministered to in the building of God's household.
Even if you are unsuccessful in establishing them in the household of Christ, and they get burned up in the Judgment, not saved, that doesn't affect your salvation. But you will lose any reward you would have otherwise gained if they had made it through the Judgement. That's why each man should be careful how he builds (vs.10). He should build with the view of being successful and being rewarded for his labor in building the household of God.

This passage has nothing to do with you still being saved even if you have no works of righteous living in a changed life toward God.