Not By Works

Phoneman-777 · Mar 31, 2020

VCO said:

Yep, that's what I said in my reply.

Not sure how God's omniscience has anything to do with salvation being conditional.

Salvation IS conditional...on condition that we SURRENDER our whole selves to God, as evidenced by numerous verses. The Scripture is clear that no one is going to heaven while rebelling against God. The promises that you post cannot be claimed by those who refuse to abide by the conditions upon which they are proffered.

That is among the easiest of questions to answer: "Hereby we do know that we know Him if (there's that little two letter word that denotes CONDITION) we keep His commandments. He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

We do have something to do with our salvation - it is our responsibility to choose righteousness over evil, a principle found in the Bible from cover to cover. The most common mistake on the part of those opposed to this position is that "choice = works"...choice is not work, choice is thought. Thoughts are not works and works are not thoughts. In the valley of temptation, we are called to choose righteousness over evil and the instant we make it, God immediately supplies all the power we need to accomplish it ("Imparted Righteousness") through His indwelling Son...and then God gives us credit for what He has done ("Imputed Righteousness"). Now that's an arrangement that really makes me love my Lord more and desire to be a faithful obedient Christian.

Yes, but the impenitent sinner will get his name blotted out in the end.

I hope you prayerfully consider the truth that God's love is unconditional, but His salvation is very much on condition that we "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus". God is not going to come back on Judgment Day and flip a switch in our brain that makes us start hating the the porn we could not resist watching the day before. "If you are to be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on Earth" one inspired writer once said...by God's grace day by day, minute by minute, moment by moment, we can be, for we "can do all things through Christ which strengthens thee."

[/QUOTE]

Phoneman-777 · Mar 31, 2020

dcontroversal said:

That was a typo...Of course God's love is unconditional and that's what I meant to say. Guess I was a bit tired when I wrote that
.

VCO · Mar 31, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 3:36 (HCSB)
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

John 6:47 (HCSB)
47 “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life. {The very moment the Holy Spirit and birthed our human spirit}

1 John 3:15 (HCSB)
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

You are not one of those who thinks SALVATION and Sanctification are the same thing, are you ? ? ?

THEY ARE NOT AT ALL.

SALVATION happens before the beginning of time, and takes up residence in our Human Spirit, where it involves the Holy Spirit coming in, birthing our Human Spirit into eternal life, Pouring GOD's LOVE in our Human Spirit, and Baptizes us by immersing our Human Spirit Into the Spiritual Body of Christ. It happens the moment HE put Saving Faith in us, and it TOTALLY involves our Human Spirit.

SANCTIFICATION is disciplining our body a life long struggle, only because WE AGAPE LOVE HIM, to learn to walk like Christ, and includes getting Baptized in Water, but that is not the Baptism that SAVES US, that happened the Moment we BELIEVED.

Here is the Baptism that SAVES US:

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— {Even the Thief on the Cross was SAVED that way.}
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Now I will show you another Portion of Scripture that has BOTH BAPTISMS in it, and SEE WHICH COMES FIRST.
So which is the BAPTISM THAT SAVES? It is Spiritual Baptism being Immersed into CHRIST's spiritual body.
THAT IS THE ONE BAPTISM that SAVES.

Acts 8:26-39 (HCSB)
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip: “Get up and go south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is the desert road.)
27 So he got up and went. There was an Ethiopian man, a eunuch and high official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to worship in Jerusalem
28 and was sitting in his chariot on his way home, reading the prophet Isaiah aloud.
29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go and join that chariot.”
30 When Philip ran up to it, he heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you’re reading?”
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the Scripture passage he was reading was this: He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb is silent before its shearer, so He does not open His mouth.
33 In His humiliation justice was denied Him. Who will describe His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.
34 The eunuch replied to Philip, “I ask you, who is the prophet saying this about—himself or another person?”
35 So Philip proceeded to tell him the good news about Jesus, beginning from that Scripture.
36 As they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The eunuch said, “Look, there’s water! What would keep me from being baptized?”
37 And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
{Now right after HE declared HE BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, was the MOMENT his human spirit was immersed into the Spiritual Body of Christ, literally. THAT IS THE MOMENT HE WAS SAVED, and CONFESSED, Rom 10:9-10. SALVATION has Nothing to do with WATER.}
38 Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
{So this guy got busy on his walk with Christ immediately.}
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him any longer. But he went on his way rejoicing.

Brandnewday · Mar 31, 2020

14meatcc said:

Let me get this straight. You claim I am in error in my doctrine. Funny, I didn't realize I invented a doctrine.
Then you ask me to explain that the gospel is? As if you can judge "my doctrine" when you have no idea what it would even derive from since you don't know what the gospel is?

Cute.

Brandnewday · Mar 31, 2020

Lafftur said:

I don't think you were following along.
I'll put it another way. Some of the people that I've read in this forum don't prove they love God. Because they can't prove they love people that disagree with them. Otherwise they wouldn't treat them the way they do here.
I read one guy in Miscellaneous forum who said he avoids BDF because of how people act here.

How does someone who doesn't treat people well prove in doing that that they love God? Especially those who defend that type attitude as being exactly like God's.
Where does it say in the bible, treat people like crap and you will prove you love God?

14meatcc · Mar 31, 2020

Brandnewday said:

I'm not here to argue. If we were in person it would be a passive statement and question. Text can fool everyone concerning approach. I just wanted to know why you think it's the "good news"?

14meatcc · Mar 31, 2020

Brandnewday said:

I don't think you were following along.
I'll put it another way. Some of the people that I've read in this forum don't prove they love God. Because they can't prove they love people that disagree with them. Otherwise they wouldn't treat them the way they do here.
I read one guy in Miscellaneous forum who said he avoids BDF because of how people act here.

How does someone who doesn't treat people well prove in doing that that they love God? Especially those who defend that type attitude as being exactly like God's.
Where does it say in the bible, treat people like crap and you will prove you love God?

You're right I missed the point, and treating people good is a fruit of the spirit. I agree with you on that.

Brandnewday · Mar 31, 2020

14meatcc said:

Fair point.
I may not be the right one to ask. If you'd have read me before you'd know I was a professing Christian at one time and now have a bit of an issue of faith.
I can tell you what I can say about it now at this stage in my life, not as a walking Christian. It's called the good news because without it the bad news is you're going to suffer eternally in a place called hell.
There's a whole history behind how hell became what Christians today think of as bottomless, and full of fire and brimstone.
What someone like me asks is, if it is bottomless how does it come to be filled with fire and brimstone? And why would a God that is said to be a God of love and eternally benevolent create such a place to receive people? After he first created it to receive his first created angel and all those other angels that entered into a war in heaven so as to dethrone God. And why is it going to receive them in the far future only because they were all allowed to live by God after they lost that war. And were sent to earth by God, so as to plague humans all the days of their life.
Then for some reason God decided instead of it being a permanent suffering eventual abode of that angel and his followers, God decided to send fallen humans there too.
Why didn't God kill that angel Satan and those other angels after they dared make war on him in his own house, heaven? And after being cast out for that, why are they allowed to return to heaven and confer with God from time to time on how to mess with us? While he grants that to happen because they can't do anything unless he allows it.

Maybe it is called the good news because what it amounts to is once this life is over, you're dead. And you no longer have to live with the bad news that tells you in God's own words that all that I just described was predestined by him!

Hey, you asked. ;-)

VCO · Apr 1, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

NO SUCH THING, as a impenitent sinner in the BOOK OF LIFE!......⮉

HE knows every decision you will make during your entire life time, Before Time Began.

You have some good teaching, but you have swallowed a LOT OF FALSE TEACHING.

Revelation 3:5 (NKJV)
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Who ARE THE OVERCOMERS? BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. The disciples who are NOT BORN AGAIN are not even counted among the SAVED. The disciples ONLY MEANS FOLLOWER, IT DOES NOT MEAN SAVED:

John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

SEE IT, Disciples does not mean SAVED BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. It only meant FOLLOWER.

John 3:3 (NIV)
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Your problem is YOU COUNT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN, as saved who lost there Salvation.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
{There is a major OSAS VERSE!}

Ephesians 1:13-14 (HCSB)
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Isaiah 48:17-19 (NJB)
17 Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am Yahweh your God and teach you for your own good, I lead you in the way you ought to go.
18 If only you had listened to my commandments! Your prosperity would have been like a river and your saving justice like the waves of the sea.
19 Your descendants would have been numbered like the sand, your offspring as many as its grains. Their name would never be cancelled or blotted out from my presence. {No substitutions of Gentile Christians for Israeli's either.}

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

Romans 11:29 (NASB77)
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

OSAS IS STILL AS SAFE AND SECURE AS CHRIST HIMSELF.

Phoneman-777 · Apr 1, 2020

VCO said:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 3:36 (HCSB)
36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

John 6:47 (HCSB)
47 “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life. {The very moment the Holy Spirit and birthed our human spirit}

1 John 3:15 (HCSB)
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

You are not one of those who thinks SALVATION and Sanctification are the same thing, are you ? ? ?

THEY ARE NOT AT ALL.

SALVATION happens before the beginning of time, and takes up residence in our Human Spirit, where it involves the Holy Spirit coming in, birthing our Human Spirit into eternal life, Pouring GOD's LOVE in our Human Spirit, and Baptizes us by immersing our Human Spirit Into the Spiritual Body of Christ. It happens the moment HE put Saving Faith in us, and it TOTALLY involves our Human Spirit.

SANCTIFICATION is disciplining our body a life long struggle, only because WE AGAPE LOVE HIM, to learn to walk like Christ, and includes getting Baptized in Water, but that is not the Baptism that SAVES US, that happened the Moment we BELIEVED.

Here is the Baptism that SAVES US:

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— {Even the Thief on the Cross was SAVED that way.}
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Now I will show you another Portion of Scripture that has BOTH BAPTISMS in it, and SEE WHICH COMES FIRST.
So which is the BAPTISM THAT SAVES? It is Spiritual Baptism being Immersed into CHRIST's spiritual body.
THAT IS THE ONE BAPTISM that SAVES.

Acts 8:26-39 (HCSB)
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip: “Get up and go south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is the desert road.)
27 So he got up and went. There was an Ethiopian man, a eunuch and high official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to worship in Jerusalem
28 and was sitting in his chariot on his way home, reading the prophet Isaiah aloud.
29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go and join that chariot.”
30 When Philip ran up to it, he heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you’re reading?”
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the Scripture passage he was reading was this: He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb is silent before its shearer, so He does not open His mouth.
33 In His humiliation justice was denied Him. Who will describe His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.
34 The eunuch replied to Philip, “I ask you, who is the prophet saying this about—himself or another person?”
35 So Philip proceeded to tell him the good news about Jesus, beginning from that Scripture.
36 As they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The eunuch said, “Look, there’s water! What would keep me from being baptized?”
37 And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
{Now right after HE declared HE BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, was the MOMENT his human spirit was immersed into the Spiritual Body of Christ, literally. THAT IS THE MOMENT HE WAS SAVED, and CONFESSED, Rom 10:9-10. SALVATION has Nothing to do with WATER.}
38 Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
{So this guy got busy on his walk with Christ immediately.}
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him any longer. But he went on his way rejoicing.

Of course salvation by grace through faith is not obtained by works...it's the evidence that we've obtained it. Yet, a man may walk for 50 years saved by grace through faith, but if he stops and turns around and says "thus far and no further, Lord" - and refuses to turn back to Him - he will be lost.

Salvation is for those who "shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved".

It is for those who "abide in the Vine", not the branches which choose to separate themselves and then wind up in the fire.

It is for those who are "transformed by the renewing of" their minds, not for those who like the Unmerciful Servant start down the path of righteousness fully forgiven of their impossible sin debt, but suddenly deny the Master's right to Sanctify them into the perfect image of His Son after He has Justified them. I can't find anywhere in Scripture where it says habitual sinners are going to heaven without having repented of it.

Phoneman-777 · Apr 1, 2020

VCO said:

Of course there is not. Those who refuse to repent from iniquity will have their names blotted out of the Book. Let's all strive to live lives "obedience unto life" and not "sin unto death." Romans 6:16 KJV

Phoneman-777 · Apr 1, 2020

VCO said:

Sorry, friend, but OSAS is a false teaching which provides false security to its adherents by teaching men can obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. (James 2:14-17 KJV)

EleventhHour · Apr 1, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

Once saved saved always is the Gospel.

The gift is eternal life nothing less........it cannot be revoked, lost, forsaken or taken back.

When we are saved we sealed by the Holy Spirit.

mailmandan · Apr 1, 2020

Phoneman-777 said:

OSAS teaches that once you are saved (by a living faith and not by a dead faith) that you will always be saved. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that we are saved by works or that faith is dead 'until' it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead 'until' it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

G2RBeliever · Apr 1, 2020

1 Peter 1 the whole but verse 9/ 25 Recieving the END of your FAITH,even the SALVATION of your souls.

But the word of the Lord endureth forever.And this is the WORD WHICH BY THE GOSPEL is preached unto you.

walknlight · Apr 1, 2020

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Num 23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.
------
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
------
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

God Bless!!!

mailmandan · Apr 1, 2020

G2RBeliever said:

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Which tense do you believe Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 1:9?

G2RBeliever · Apr 1, 2020

1Peter 1:9 Recieving the END of your FAITH,even the SALVATION of your souls.

Judges1318 · Apr 1, 2020

EleventhHour said:

And we are his (Jesus') house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. - Hebrews 3:6

But you say we are his house even if we DON'T hold firmly to our confidence.

mailmandan · Apr 1, 2020

G2RBeliever said:

The END is glorification.

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