Not By Works

[CherieR]

I'd say, "hang around, you'll see them."

Through out the day, that person would catch me being patient, because the fruit of patience is in me (and I'm not suppressing it). They'd catch me being kind because the fruit of kindness is in me. They'd catch me being faithful because the fruit of faithfulness is at work in me. They'd catch me being self-controlled because.........well, never mind that one, lol.

That last sentence...

I can relate to that.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Once saved saved always is the Gospel.

The gift is eternal life nothing less........it cannot be revoked, lost, forsaken or taken back.

When we are saved we sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Hi, the Holy Spirit seals Jesus' disciples with God's Law (Ephesians 4:30; Isaiah 8:16). Now, many Christians want this seal to refer to some kind of unbreakable bond that binds us to God in order to advance the OSAS idea...a kind of ligature that a kidnapper would use to rob us of our freedom.

However, in Scripture, the words "seal" and "sign" are synonymous (Romans 4:11), which means the function of the Biblical seal is not to deprive us of our freedom of choice, but to serve as an identifier of those who belong to God in the midst of a sinful world - a "mark" if you will that shows we worship not the Beast, but God.

That's why Jesus said people would know us by our good fruit - obedience. But, those who turn their back on God's word after "they have escaped the pollutions of this world" will be lost...likewise, Scripture says "if they (those who partake of the Holy Ghost) should fall away" it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance."

 

[Phoneman-777]

OSAS teaches that once you are saved (by a living faith and not by a dead faith) that you will always be saved. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that we are saved by works or that faith is dead 'until' it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead 'until' it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

The problem with OSAS is that it teaches works are optional. My mom's OSAS uncle Oscar and my dad were drinking beer and smoking cigs one night in a bar years and years ago when he tells my dad, "If we both died right now, I'D go to heaven and YOU'D go to hell", and my dad was incredulous. "What the (expletive) do you mean? We're both DOING the same thing!"
What a bold, presumptuous, asinine belief, but this is the kind of insanity to which OSAS leads. No backslider who dies in his backsliden state is going to heaven.

"For as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Now if any man draweth back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)​

And what does the child of God do?

"...keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight." (1 John 3:22)​

 

[Phoneman-777]

What is "dead" faith in the context of James?

Dead faith is a faith that produces zero works, and when OSAS says a saved person can turn from following Jesus back to the old life of sin and still go to heaven, it is essentially saying a man who produces no outward evidence of having saving faith will be saved regardless.
A husband may claim to love his wife, but if he cheats on her routinely, do his works evidence this? Likewise, if Jesus is enthroned in our heart, the works which He accomplishes in us and for us will demonstrate that love. This is what it means to be in a Biblical saving relationship.

 

[dcontroversal]

That was a typo...Of course God's love is unconditional and that's what I meant to say. Guess I was a bit tired when I wrote that
.

all good migo

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem with OSAS is that it teaches works are optional. My mom's OSAS uncle Oscar and my dad were drinking beer and smoking cigs one night in a bar years and years ago when he tells my dad, "If we both died right now, I'D go to heaven and YOU'D go to hell", and my dad was incredulous. "What the (expletive) do you mean? We're both DOING the same thing!"
What a bold, presumptuous, asinine belief, but this is the kind of insanity to which OSAS leads. No backslider who dies in his backsliden state is going to heaven.

"For as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Now if any man draweth back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)​

And what does the child of God do?

"...keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight." (1 John 3:22)​

False presumption....not for salvation....and the saved have works of every flavor...some good....some bad....salvation is a gift not dependant upon works.....

 

[Phoneman-777]

NOT IN THE LEAST! Your theology is the GREAT FALLING AWAY FROM TRUTH.

Not "my" but "Bible" theology. James says faith without works is dead. OSAS says faith without works is alive and well and carrying countless Christians to heaven - which is Biblical?

Most of US are TRUE OSAS BELIEVERS here, ABLE TO DEFEND OSAS THOROUGHLY, and CANNOT BE SWAYED FROM THE TRUTH. So YOU CAN GO NOW, since you just chose not to read my post thoroughly.

Two things:
1) Since when does consensus determine what is true?
2) While I appreciate your enthusiasm, your posts are a long list of disconnected ideas strung together with cords of confusion...try shortening them a bit, maybe?

not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Yes, a person called according to grace will evidence that he has accepted that call by a life of "good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." OSAS says obedience is optional.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God...by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. {There is a major OSAS VERSE!}

This Seal is not spoken in the sense of something which prevents escape, like so many prisoners on a chain gang....."seal" and "sign" are synonymous in Scripture (Romans 4:11) and the function of the seal is as an "identifier" of who is serving God and who is serving the enemy. Not the least bit of support for OSAS anywhere in this text.

When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

Again, it means God places His "mark" on us, just as in the case of Ezekiel 8. Got nothin to do with cords of restraint. Restraint from sin is something that we choose to exercise by His indwelling Spirit and power. "Not my will, but Thy will" is our Divine example and our plea to God for overcoming strength.

...and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.

Yes, "but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." Not sure what's the hard part here. If "he" - the born again, grace saved saint - fails to endure to the end, that uncorrupted inheritance won't profit him one iota.

5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith

Again, it is through faith - LIVING FAITH - that we can claim the promises of God, such as His protection. The dead faith of OSAS is powerless to claim anything but presumptuous boasting by those who fancy themselves "more than conquerors" while getting their butts handed to them by Satan whenever he comes around dangling his temptations.

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

So, the fact that God does not revoke his gift means we can't cast it aside after having first accepted it? A saint can't trade eternal life for "the pleasures of sin for a season"? When Peter says "If after having escaped the pollutions of this world..." he is referring to SANITIZED SAINTS who chose a fate that is worse than before they got sainthood.

8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; 9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Predictably, verse 10 is left out because it so completely exposes OSAS as being loosely based on wrongly divided Scripture...verse 10 shows that the unavoidable consequence of accepting grace through faith is obedience - the cease and desist from doing that which made necessary the death of Jesus on the Cross in the first place. Surely, we can agree that we do not want to "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

"...have not been written" is in the past tense and that's why I don't rely on translations that are based on that filthy Alexandrian Greek Critical Text NT, and instead stick with the Textus Receptus of the Protestant Reformation for the most part.
The KJV says "...whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" which is present tense. Means they are not written at that present time that they are worshiping the Beast...and why? God Himself tells you:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33​

 

[Phoneman-777]

False presumption....not for salvation....and the saved have works of every flavor...some good....some bad....salvation is a gift not dependant upon works.....

The saved have works of every flavor, some good, and some bad? I thought Jesus said a good tree can't bring forth bad fruit, right or wrong?

 

[Brandnewday]

The saved have works of every flavor, some good, and some bad? I thought Jesus said a good tree can't bring forth bad fruit, right or wrong?

Well done.

 

[VCO]

The problem with OSAS is that it teaches works are optional. My mom's OSAS uncle Oscar and my dad were drinking beer and smoking cigs one night in a bar years and years ago when he tells my dad, "If we both died right now, I'D go to heaven and YOU'D go to hell", and my dad was incredulous. "What the (expletive) do you mean? We're both DOING the same thing!"
What a bold, presumptuous, asinine belief, but this is the kind of insanity to which OSAS leads. No backslider who dies in his backsliden state is going to heaven.

"For as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Now if any man draweth back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)​

And what does the child of God do?

"...keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight." (1 John 3:22)​

 

[Judges1318]

This is not addressing salvific faith....you read the entire letters and see what James is addressing.

Saved has different meanings....I have already explained this to you.

Reading the entire letter, we see the works James is talking about:

"26If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." - James 1:26-27

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." - James 2:14-17

James says the person who does not have those works--actionable love for others, and doing right--has a faith that is dead, which he says can not save. You say he's not talking about being saved in regard to salvation. But John shows us this matter of loving a brother or sister and doing right, is very much a matter of faith in salvation. He says the person who does not have those works is not a child of God:

"10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." - 1 John 3:10

The person who does not have the works James is talking about is not a child of God.

 

[Judges1318]

Only in your dictionary "gift" means loan, reward or bribe...

What is it about the free gift being revoked in Matthew 18:21-35 that you do not understand?

 

[Judges1318]

You are so full of contradictions

Sure, I thought you were not working to stay saved

Continuing to believe is not working to earn salvation.
I'm not aware of a scripture that says 'believing' is among the works that constitute the works gospel.
Are you aware of one?

 

[Judges1318]

Judge, you just stated that God’s grace is not a get out of jail free card and then you stated that it is a get out of jail free card.

God's grace is indeed a get out of jail free card.
But that card comes with responsibilities, just like any guilty person released by a Judge.
The idea is that person is being released to then live a right life.
His release is not a license for him to be able to go back to his crimes with impunity.
But osas says that's what God's forgiveness does for us.

On another note, there are no perfect people but there are more godly people in the church than ungodly people in the church. Besides, what your definition of godly?

Focused on living for god. God-like in word and deed.

 

[Judges1318]

How do you view faith? Do you see it as an effort on your part? What do you think is saving faith?

The Bible defines 'faith' as the surety that something you can't see really is true.
God gives us this ability--this faith--to know the gospel we can't see really is true.
We have the choice to accept or reject what God has shown us to be true.
Our responsibility is to not walk away and reject what God has shown us is true but to embrace it and retain it in our hearts to the very end.

If your faith is failing or weak, go back to the One who authored it. He'll charge you back up.

 

[Judges1318]

If you believe this, then it is you who believes in a dual gospel unto salvation. The gospel of salvation is specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried and resurrected the third day. Can you at least post where someone, anyone believed this before the resurrection? Thanks.

Have you read Galatians 3 lately?
Justification/salvation has always come through faith in God's promise of a Son who would inherit the blessing on our behalf. The law was not a new way to be justified that replaced the covenant of faith established with Abraham. The Jews are the ones who erroneously made the law a replacement for the covenant previously established (see Romans 9:32). Paul sets that error straight in Galatians 3.

 

[John146]

Have you read Galatians 3 lately?
Justification/salvation has always come through faith in God's promise of a Son who would inherit the blessing on our behalf. The law was not a new way to be justified that replaced the covenant of faith established with Abraham. The Jews are the ones who erroneously made the law a replacement for the covenant previously established (see Romans 9:32). Paul sets that error straight in Galatians 3.

The gospel unto salvation is specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. To make it anything else is a false gospel.

If you’re comparing the future hope of a Messiah, which the d,b,r was hidden, then that would be another gospel. There’s only one gospel unto salvation and that was hidden until after the resurrection.

Those OT saints had to walk in the ordinances of the law to have their sins forgiven, if they did not obey, they were cut off and died in their iniquity. They lived by their own faith. The NT believer lives by the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[blue_ladybug]

 

[mailmandan]

The problem with OSAS is that it teaches works are optional.

You seem to paint all OSAS believers with a broad brush based on one or two bad examples. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

My mom's OSAS uncle Oscar and my dad were drinking beer and smoking cigs one night in a bar years and years ago when he tells my dad, "If we both died right now, I'D go to heaven and YOU'D go to hell", and my dad was incredulous. "What the (expletive) do you mean? We're both DOING the same thing!"

You need to realize that there may be people who believe they are saved, but are deceived. You may have people who went forward years ago during an altar call at church for example, got emotional while reciting the sinners prayer, yet did not truly repent and believe the gospel, but were duped into believing they were saved anyway, simply because they 'recited' the sinner's prayer (as if it's a magical formula to automatically save those who merely recite those words) in spite of the fact that they did not place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Such people may live the rest of their lives living like the devil, yet say to themselves in the back of their minds, "I'm saved and will always be saved simply because I recited a prayer at church years ago." That is insanity!

What a bold, presumptuous, asinine belief, but this is the kind of insanity to which OSAS leads. No backslider who dies in his backsliden state is going to heaven.

I've heard numerous works-salvationists make this statement and what such people consider to be a backslidden state seems to vary from slight to extreme. ALL false religions and cults strongly oppose OSAS and teach salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc.. yet 'claim' to be Christian. I see that as insanity! Those in the NOSAS camp are generally quick to unfairly label those in the OSAS camp as promoting a 'license to sin.'

"For as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Now if any man draweth back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)

The just shall live by faith and those who draw back did not believe to the saving of the soul. In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.​

And what does the child of God do?

"...keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight." (1 John 3:22)​

Keep reading. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.