Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
It was about the tribulation, that's why he quoted the full text rather than stopping at the pouring out of the HS. He knew it would be in his generation.
Since you believed the tribulation did take place somewhere in AD 70, I can understand why you would have a different view.

That is fine
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Since you believed the tribulation did take place somewhere in AD 70, I can understand why you would have a different view.

That is fine
It does not get you out of the two gospel theory either way.

Peter quote the full prophecy from Joel, he was not expecting future generation of Jews to somehow understand the timing.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah he stopped short of the full text because he knew he had to die first and that his apostle would proclaim Joel's fulfillment within that generation.


(Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears)

He left out the day of vengeance because he prophesied that day for when Jerusalem was compassed with armies:

(Isa 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound)

(Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn)
.
.

(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)

(Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Who needs to see that evidence in the first place?

Without it, You guys Count Everyone on Both the Narrow Road and the Wide Road as SAVED BELIEVERS.
We only count GENUINE Born Again Believers as Part of US, Narrow Road Believers. 1 John 2:19.

Without it, WE need to know WHO IS GENUINELY BORN AGAIN, To know which Person is Born Again and which Person is NOT, so that we do not listen to a FALSE PROPHET, or PUT HIM in authority in the Church.

Without it, WE will not know who needs simple witnessing, and Who we can talk to about deep spiritual TRUTHS.

Without it, WE are IGNORING HIS INSTRUCTION THAT WE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THERE FRUIT.


Matthew 7:13-29 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and
there are many who go through it.

14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16
You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day
many will say to Me, Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,
‘I never knew you! {not Born Again} Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain fell, the rivers rose, and the winds blew and pounded that house. Yet it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn’t act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!”
28 When Jesus had finished this sermon, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,
29 because He was teaching them like one who had authority, and not like their scribes.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
It does not get you out of the two gospel theory either way.

Peter quote the full prophecy from Joel, he was not expecting future generation of Jews to somehow understand the timing.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah he stopped short of the full text because he knew he had to die first and that his apostle would proclaim Joel's fulfillment within that generation.


(Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears)

He left out the day of vengeance because he prophesied that day for when Jerusalem was compassed with armies:

(Isa 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound)

(Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn)
.
.

(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)

(Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)
You were asking who James was addressing in his letter, I have provided the context.

It was meant for Jews who are facing the coming tribulation in
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
You dodged the question at hand. You said they knew what it meant. Did the disciples go around preaching the d,b,r for sins? Yes or no? Could the message they preached prior to the cross save anyone today?
All these are assumptions they are making, that are not scriptural, just to support their covenant theology beliefs
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
You were asking who James was addressing in his letter, I have provided the context.

It was meant for Jews who are facing the coming tribulation in
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The term “twelve tribes” is used throughout Scripture OT and NT, and in no instance does it ever refer to Jewish Christians, but rather the whole nation of Israel. Always. To make James a Christian epistle violates every other usage in Scripture. It violates comparing spiritual things to spiritual.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The term “twelve tribes” is used throughout Scripture OT and NT, and in no instance does it ever refer to Jewish Christians, but rather the whole nation of Israel. Always. To make James a Christian epistle violates every other usage in Scripture. It violates comparing spiritual things to spiritual.
The 12 tribes James was writing to are Christians as he calls them firstfruits just as Paul uses the same terminology:

(James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures)

(Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
The 12 tribes James was writing to are Christians as he calls them firstfruits just as Paul uses the same terminology:

(James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures)

(Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ)
Notice it says, that we SHOULD be a KIND of firstfruits. Wording is important.

Obviously, there were at least part of the audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Notice it says, that we SHOULD be a KIND of firstfruits. Wording is important.

Obviously, there were at least part of the audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

If by souls you mean spiritual salvation....that is speculation.... James addresses them as brethren throughout.

Interestingly enough James is addressing the salvation of the soul... "the profitable life"
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
All these are assumptions they are making, that are not scriptural, just to support their covenant theology beliefs
A question for you. Was James the brother of John? Where did he get his authority?

Two James' are mentioned as apostles James; the first was the son of Zebedee, the other the son of Alphaeus .

(Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother)

(Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus)

James the brother of Jesus is not mentioned in the gospels as an apostle.

It appears that James his brother was skeptical of Jesus:

(John 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him)
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Notice it says, that we SHOULD be a KIND of firstfruits. Wording is important.
The wording has the same intent, just because it does not use the exact same phrase does not negate the fact that they are one and the same. Being a "kind" of first fruits means they were humans and not agricultural products. And possibly why the translators used it.

"Kind" is a questionable translation of the Greek tina in any case, which has bee translated as "certain", "as certain" firstfruits

Obviously, there were at least part of the audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Paul made similar statements to Gentile Christian so this does not prove your point.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
If by souls you mean spiritual salvation....that is speculation.... James addresses them as brethren throughout.

Interestingly enough James is addressing the salvation of the soul... "the profitable life"
James is a Jew, addressing his Jewish brethren. Paul does the same thing sometimes when referring to his brethren according to the flesh.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
The wording has the same intent, just because it does not use the exact same phrase does not negate the fact that they are one and the same. Being a "kind" of first fruits means they were humans and not agricultural products. And possibly why the translators used it.

"Kind" is a questionable translation of the Greek tina in any case, which has bee translated as "certain", "as certain" firstfruits



Paul made similar statements to Gentile Christian so this does not prove your point.
Is this what the commentary said? Or your honest review from scripture only? Paul says things like this? Can you post to show?
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Is this what the commentary said? Or your honest review from scripture only? Paul says things like this? Can you post to show?
Are you asking if I'm quoting from a commentary John? - No. not sure why you would think this.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
Are you asking if I'm quoting from a commentary John? - No. not sure why you would think this.
Exact words are important to God. Reading intent is private interpretation. Take words at face value. Where does Paul tell his audience, the body of Christ, that they need their souls saved?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
Are you asking if I'm quoting from a commentary John? - No. not sure why you would think this.
If you only allowed scripture to interpret itself, one would never come to the conclusion that the term twelve tribes is a reference to Jewish Christians. Ever. That’s a commentary point of view from those who do not know what to do with James.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Exact words are important to God. Reading intent is private interpretation. Take words at face value. Where does Paul tell his audience, the body of Christ, that they need their souls saved?
You don't think Christian need their souls saved?

(1 Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
If you only allowed scripture to interpret itself, one would never come to the conclusion that the term twelve tribes is a reference to Jewish Christians. Ever. That’s a commentary point of view from those who do not know what to do with James.
I'm not using a commentary or a "commentary point of view" - I'm taking James letter as written.