Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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This is not the pre-temporal decision of God of His selection of people, but of His plan of redemption.

The text clearly indicates that God has predetermined, before time began, that those who are saved will not be saved according to works but by His own purpose.

AND HIS PLAN was like a DONE DEED from when HE PLANNED IT.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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This is not the pre-temporal decision of God of His selection of people, but of His plan of redemption.

The text clearly indicates that God has predetermined, before time began, that those who are saved will not be saved according to works but by His own purpose.
Correct. His plan of redemption for Christians. The remnant. The chosen, the elect, the little flock. The called, the justified the sanctified. The eklogé, the eklegó.
How and where are these terms are used in scripture is extremely critical, As they are clearly and obviously used as cornerstones in building doctrine!

This post in it of itself should give pause to any sincere honest minded freewiller.

Rom 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, this it has not obtained, but the elect (Strongs 1589) obtained it. And the rest were hardened,

https://biblehub.com/greek/1589.htm
Please note the scriptures referenced. Chosen and elected are basically synonymous in this application.

Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).

https://biblehub.com/greek/1586.htm
***Note critically that Jesus used this term when selecting his apostles***

1586 eklégomai (from 1537 /ek, "out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

You see ladies and gentlemen that when you are chosen and elected (before the foundation of the world), you HAVE BEEN once and eternally saved and by held by the power of God for glorification.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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You see ladies and gentlemen that when you are chosen and elected (before the foundation of the world), you HAVE BEEN once and eternally saved and by held by the power of God for glorification.
Oh well, you see I am in a good mood so I can chuckle at this and your insistence of it ... however, the laugh does not last very long

when I remember the associated fact of this dogma......... which is those who were not chosen are denied regeneration and shut

out of the kingdom of Heaven and created for destruction.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Oh well, you see I am in a good mood so I can chuckle at this and your insistence of it ... however, the laugh does not last very long

when I remember the associated fact of this dogma......... which is those who were not chosen are denied regeneration and shut

out of the kingdom of Heaven and created for destruction.
You may be right. But definitely nothing to chuckle at that's for sure.

Isa 6
6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
6:9: And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
6:11: Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
6:12: And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
6:13: But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

The elect the chosen the remant the Holy seed. So it was so it shall always be.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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You may be right. But definitely nothing to chuckle at that's for sure.

Isa 6
6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
6:9: And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
6:11: Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
6:12: And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
6:13: But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

The elect the chosen the remant the Holy seed. So it was so it shall always be.
God in His sovereignty gave each man a measure of faith... truth revealed....the ability to be persuaded and choose.

Sad you deny the sovereignty of God and His plan of love extended to all who would respond to the Gospel.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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God in His sovereignty gave each man a measure of faith... truth revealed....the ability to be persuaded and choose.

Sad you deny the sovereignty of God and His plan of love extended to all who would respond to the Gospel.
I am refraining from condemning criticisms of the viewpoints of others and I would like to encourage others to improve the civil ethics on this board. I have myself been caught up in shouting matches and I don't want that to happen any longer. I am begging for a similar courtesy from yourself as well.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I am refraining from condemning criticisms of the viewpoints of others and I would like to encourage others to improve the civil ethics on this board. I have myself been caught up in shouting matches and I don't want that to happen any longer. I am begging for a similar courtesy from yourself as well.
We we are not in the processing of offering view points... there is only one truth .... and quite honestly that it makes me sad is neither criticizing nor condemning but an expression of my reaction to this dogma.

What is it you hope to accomplish?

My only goal is to defend the nature of God as presented in scripture .. and I will against false dogma... someone has to.

So you can continue to present your case if you like ... and I as time permits will refute.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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You may be right. But definitely nothing to chuckle at that's for sure.

Isa 6
6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
6:9: And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
6:11: Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
6:12: And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
6:13: But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

The elect the chosen the remant the Holy seed. So it was so it shall always be.
And for the record I was not offended by anything you stated in the other thread...
I however did not appreciate the lies told by another member.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,383
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North Carolina
I am refraining from condemning criticisms of the viewpoints of others and I would like to encourage others to improve the civil ethics on this board. I have myself been caught up in shouting matches and I don't want that to happen any longer. I am begging for a similar courtesy from yourself as well.

Disagreeing and being adamant against false teaching is what a child of God does whenever God's word is being misrepresented. False teaching is abhorrent to the Lord
 
Nov 11, 2019
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Disagreeing and being adamant against false teaching is what a child of God does whenever God's word is being misrepresented. False teaching is abhorrent to the Lord
Amen and Amen!!

When my spirit is troubled I know I need to speak up... especially when a different Saviour is being presented!!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Disagreeing and being adamant against false teaching is what a child of God does whenever God's word is being misrepresented. False teaching is abhorrent to the Lord
Disagreeing is one thing. Hurling continual insults to cloud the issue is quite another. And leads to locked threads.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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AND HIS PLAN was like a DONE DEED from when HE PLANNED IT.

I will give you another POSSIBILITY! WITH GOD THEIR IS NO TIME! TIME IS SOMETHING HE CREATED for CREATED BEINGS TO EXIST IN.
WHEN HE PLANS, HE SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTS IN ALL TIME AS WE KNOW IT. HE EXISTS AS AN ETERNAL BEING, AND HE CALLS HIM SELF THEE "I AM", NOT THE "I WAS, I AM, AND I WILL BE". HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, NOT A CREATED BEING TRAVELING THROUGH TIME. YOU NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, AND THE BOX IS TIME AS WE KNOW IT.

John 8:58-59 (NIV)
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself {perhaps even vanished}, slipping away from the temple grounds.


PERHAPS, OUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE TIME BEGAN, BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY AT EACH CONVERSION.
PERHAPS, HE DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE HE IS SIMULTANEOUSLY ALREADY IN BOTH PLACES and Everywhere in Between.

Luke 1:37 (NIV)
37 For nothing is impossible with God."

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ESV)
9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
 
May 6, 2017
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PERHAPS, OUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE TIME BEGAN, BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY AT EACH CONVERSION.
PERHAPS, HE DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE HE IS SIMULTANEOUSLY ALREADY IN BOTH PLACES and Everywhere in Between.
I'm not sure VCO but I am open to that possibly. Perhaps we'll know one day in eternity.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,345
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I'm not sure VCO but I am open to that possibly. Perhaps we'll know one day in eternity.

Thank you! After I was Born Again the last week of 1977, I asked a lot of Why or How Questions of the Lord, and He answered me by letting the Holy Spirit guide me in my BIBLE Study. That is the answer HE guided me too in 1978, so I cling to that and TRUST HIM Totally. Most people think I have a screw loose when I try to explain that to them. So I am very happy that you said, "I am open to that possibly." I just figure that most People cannot think outside the box, and therefore they cannot fathom the Possibility that GOD EXISTS outside of TIME CONSTRAINTS. The way I see it is GOD has NO BEGINNING and NO END, therefore HE Created TIME as we KNOW IT for us. In eternity we will know as we are KNOWN.
 
May 6, 2017
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Thank you! After I was Born Again the last week of 1977, I asked a lot of Why or How Questions of the Lord, and He answered me by letting the Holy Spirit guide me in my BIBLE Study. That is the answer HE guided me too in 1978, so I cling to that and TRUST HIM Totally. Most people think I have a screw loose when I try to explain that to them. So I am very happy that you said, "I am open to that possibly." I just figure that most People cannot think outside the box, and therefore they cannot fathom the Possibility that GOD EXISTS outside of TIME CONSTRAINTS. The way I see it is GOD has NO BEGINNING and NO END, therefore HE Created TIME as we KNOW IT for us. In eternity we will know as we are KNOWN.
I am known to ask questions often and think over things deeply and analyze. At times truly I overthink things. One person told me something to don't think just read. Later on I'm thinking," nope, not happening". Though perhaps her intent behind the words was one of don't over-think but that can be difficult to not do.

In the mystery and questions still we can trust God. I see nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking answers. And sometimes you find the answers. Sometimes you find something but it is not the answer you're looking for or it feels like you want more to the answer than what's given. Then there are the unanswerable that remain that way. When a loved one dies often the question is why. One is not usually looking for the cause of death but rather why does it have to be now? In this way? And for these why questions I believe it is often best to not try to answer these questions( which doesn't help ) but just be there for the person.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Why is it so difficult to believe salvation is an Act of God and His only Son, Jesus Christ who shed his blood for all who would believe in Him and have eternal, everlasting life? Oh such distortion I seen when "works" are added to God's equation for salvation.
Oh, just go over to the Calvinite thread where the following errors are peddled....

God only saves the extra special chosen ones while choosing .ost men for hell.

Salvation is a God willed and forced product with no chouce and no need for the gospel to he preached

Regeneration takes place before fsith anf salvation which are a product of "a"above.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,757
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I will give you another POSSIBILITY! WITH GOD THEIR IS NO TIME! TIME IS SOMETHING HE CREATED for CREATED BEINGS TO EXIST IN.
WHEN HE PLANS, HE SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTS IN ALL TIME AS WE KNOW IT. HE EXISTS AS AN ETERNAL BEING, AND HE CALLS HIM SELF THEE "I AM", NOT THE "I WAS, I AM, AND I WILL BE". HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, NOT A CREATED BEING TRAVELING THROUGH TIME. YOU NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, AND THE BOX IS TIME AS WE KNOW IT.

John 8:58-59 (NIV)
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself {perhaps even vanished}, slipping away from the temple grounds.


PERHAPS, OUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE TIME BEGAN, BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY AT EACH CONVERSION.
PERHAPS, HE DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE HE IS SIMULTANEOUSLY ALREADY IN BOTH PLACES and Everywhere in Between.

Luke 1:37 (NIV)
37 For nothing is impossible with God."

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ESV)
9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
When someone told me that God exists out of time it blew my mind.

I can't grasp the concept that God exists out of time yet we do exist in time.

As you say thinking out of the box.

Good post VCO
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,345
3,772
113
I am known to ask questions often and think over things deeply and analyze. At times truly I overthink things. One person told me something to don't think just read. Later on I'm thinking," nope, not happening". Though perhaps her intent behind the words was one of don't over-think but that can be difficult to not do.

In the mystery and questions still we can trust God. I see nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking answers. And sometimes you find the answers. Sometimes you find something but it is not the answer you're looking for or it feels like you want more to the answer than what's given. Then there are the unanswerable that remain that way. When a loved one dies often the question is why. One is not usually looking for the cause of death but rather why does it have to be now? In this way? And for these why questions I believe it is often best to not try to answer these questions( which doesn't help ) but just be there for the person.

In Recent Years, there has been a RECENT INCREASE in UFO type of TV programs. I have to chuckle every time someone thinks it is a Conspiracy to Hide UFO's have Visited earth. I was in the U.S. Air Force between 1968-1972. One of the Top Secret Air Craft at that time, that arrive on our Base the SR71 BlackBird. In a briefing they actually said, "If anyone want to believe they saw a UFO on our Base; let them. It is the perfect cover up story, then you can honestly say there is no such thing."



Now how many of those were reported as UFO's in the early 70's. So much for UFO's.

Another Myth you hear about usually in early September is the legend of BIG FOOT.


Now look at the fall colors on the leaves. So if you want to keep people out of the woods, during the Marijuana Harvest, dress a tall but up in a gorilla costume, take a video of him, and MOST PEOPLE WILL STAY OUT OF THE WOODS for a few weeks.

So what does the bible about those kind of MYTHS.

They will return unto MYTHS.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,345
3,772
113
CONTINUED;

1 Timothy 1:3-4 (GW)
3 When I was going to the province of Macedonia, I encouraged you to stay in the city of Ephesus. That way you could order certain people to stop teaching false doctrine
4 and occupying themselves with myths and endless genealogies. These myths and genealogies raise a lot of questions rather than promoting God's plan, which centers in faith.

1 Timothy 4:7 (HCSB)
7 But have nothing to do with irreverent and silly myths. Rather, train yourself in godliness,

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV)
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2 Peter 1:16 (HCSB)
16 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.