Not By Works

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Apr 19, 2020
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ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works (including Roman Catholicism and Mormonism) strongly oppose OSAS and teach that salvation can be lost, which has always been a red flag for me..
I certainly do not believe in Salvation by works. Such is contrary to scripture, yet I do oppose OSAS for the same reasons. I have no desire to exchange insults but throughout you accuse me of eisegesis and yet in your responses I see nothing other than this. Best agree to disagree.

I already answered your question. [B said:
A person becomes a genuine 'saved' Christian the moment that they believe the gospel. [/B](Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
This being the case and getting back to Hebrews 6:4-6 I believe Paul is addressing genuine ‘saved’ Christians by your very definition.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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I certainly do not believe in Salvation by works. Such is contrary to scripture, yet I do oppose OSAS for the same reasons. I have no desire to exchange insults but throughout you accuse me of eisegesis and yet in your responses I see nothing other than this. Best agree to disagree.



This being the case and getting back to Hebrews 6:4-6 I believe Paul is addressing genuine ‘saved’ Christians by your very definition.

I just deleted by mistake a long post, that was about finished. I am 71, and have had 7 stroke, and I hit the wrong key. Sometimes I think they do not make anything USER FRIENDLY for Senior Citizens.

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Let me give you my Take on OSAS, which is absolute TRUTH, which I think you have the WRONG idea about what it all is about, and at the End I will Explain Hebrews 6:4-6, which you may have misunderstood too.

There are Two types of Christian Disciples:
1. Born Again Christian Disciples = SAVED and sure of it.
2. Non-Born Again Christian Disciples = UNSAVED yet or Never will be.


Here is a VERSE that will explain the Non-Born Again that is the dominant type of Christian Disciple, Jesus said:

John 3:7 (HCSB)
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be Born Again.

SAVED Disciples are only those who are TRULY Born Again, and they will NEVER FALL AWAY because HE IS THE ONE THAT HOLDS ON TO OUR SALVATION.

That is You must by the Power of the Holy Spirit, have received (Surrendered To) HIM as LORD, meaning your personal MASTER in your Human Spirit, and have Confessed HIM before others as your Personal LORD. SALVATION only comes after THAT, and that is NOT an example of WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS, because it says in 1 Cor. 12:3 that can confess like that, JESUS IS LORD by the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT, and mean it with your whole being, especially the HUMAN SPIRIT; IS SAVED. Mouthing the words is of no value to you, unless you mean it not with your all your Mind, BUT WITH all your HUMAN SPIRIT.

The whole world wants a SAVIOR, but very Few want a LORD to rule over your Human Spirit. They want to remain in control of that TOO. That is the FAITH of DEMONS, who believe with only their intellect. It is WITH THE HEART you genuinely have FAITH, and not with what lies between your ears.

Romans 10:9-11 (HCSB)
9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” {not just profess it} and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart (Human Spirit), resulting in righteousness,
and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in Salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him {with that kind of FAITH} will not be put to shame,


That is Born Again, the Holy Spirit births our Human Spirit, and HE changes it to a Human Spirit inclined to please our MASTER.
1. Born Again Christian Disciples = SAVED and sure of it.

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Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(We are those have consumed the heavenly gift, not just TASTED. We are those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, not just shared in the Holy Spirit.)
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
(We are those who hunger and thirst for Righteousness, not just tasted of the goodness of the word. We are the ones who look forward to the REALITY of Rapture HIS BRIDE and the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM and our Jobs, not just do not care what it is about.
6 if they fall away (2. Non-Born Again Christian Disciples = UNSAVED yet or Never will be.),
to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again
and subjecting him to public disgrace.

How Do We KNOW ? ? ?

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying {agape} love for our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Revelation 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. {No discipline means you are not one of HIS Children.} So be committed and repent.
20 Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.

And do you know the Greatest Part of KNOWING HIM ? ? ?

We absolutely KNOW the Holy Spirit is IN US, and so is the Mind of CHRIST. NO DOUBT whatsoever!

And Obedience comes from the AGAPE LOVE HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom. 5:5. Yes we Love to do what Pleases HIM.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I just deleted by mistake a long post, that was about finished. I am 71, and have had 7 stroke, and I hit the wrong key. Sometimes I think they do not make anything USER FRIENDLY for Senior Citizens.

><>

One thing I forgot to mention. WE ARE NOT PERFECT, we are the ones that Strive to Obey GOD out of our Agape LOVE for HIM. We we fail, we are the ones that want to Confess it as SIN, and then get back to striving to Obey Him. NOT ONE IOTA OF IT IS Part of Salvation, IT always has been part of our LOVE for HIM, THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I certainly do not believe in Salvation by works. Such is contrary to scripture, yet I do oppose OSAS for the same reasons. I have no desire to exchange insults but throughout you accuse me of eisegesis and yet in your responses I see nothing other than this. Best agree to disagree.
What I said about ALL false religions and cults teaching salvation by works and strongly opposing OSAS raising a red flag was meant to be a general observation and not a personal insult to you. Throughout our discussion, I have given you a thorough explanation of the passages of scripture we discussed, interpreted them within their intended context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. What I continued to hear from you throughout our discussion was presupposition, agenda and bias. All we seem to have left is agree to disagree.

This being the case and getting back to Hebrews 6:4-6 I believe Paul is addressing genuine ‘saved’ Christians by your very definition.
I thoroughly explained otherwise in post #148,488. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance and being a 'saved' Christian.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-7425
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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What I said about ALL false religions and cults teaching salvation by works and strongly opposing OSAS raising a red flag was meant to be a general observation and not a personal insult to you. Throughout our discussion, I have given you a thorough explanation of the passages of scripture we discussed, interpreted them within their intended context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. What I continued to hear from you throughout our discussion was presupposition, agenda and bias. All we seem to have left is agree to disagree.

I thoroughly explained otherwise in post #148,488. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance and being a 'saved' Christian.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-7425

I think like I posted almost ALL of those apposed to OSAS, have a totally False Idea of what we actually Teach and Believe. PLUS they think SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION ARE THE EXACT SAME THINK, which they are NOT. SALVATION of the Human Spirit happened before time began; while SANCTIFICATION is a life long process of learning to walk like JESUS walked. So why do they not LISTEN when we try to explain what we Teach and Believe ? ? ? Personally I think it is because that LIKE hating OSAS True Believers, even though it is a total LIE, it is like an addiction to that Hatred. I guess we show be thankful for when they Hate us.


John 15:18-21 (ESV)
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

They do not realize what worldly friendship with the World, is becoming an enemy of GOD.

James 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Adulteresses! Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy.
 

star

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Nov 8, 2017
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We missed you and your sword...keep swinging...the latest is a gospel-less salvation willed by God with no choice and context still being ignored by many......!
As I believe we are in the last days I as well expect to see more and more distortion of the Word of God. I haven't been disappointed - lol
 

star

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Thank you Star :) Nor do I believe in "accidents," and I have often heard it said that coincidences are God's way of remaining anonymous, though we are blessed to see His hand at work in our lives :)
I have ready all 3 of your posts about your cancer journey. May God keep a healing hand upon you. May He bless you and keep you in the palm of His hand.

I am a 14-year cancer survivor. I promised God when my surgery was over and all was good news that I would tell my story as long as I lived. Mine was the same type of cancer as my mother's and in the same kidney. Mine was found early; hers was not. I did have survivors guilt at first. But I've kept my promise to God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth.
 

star

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Nov 8, 2017
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Why is it so difficult to believe salvation is an Act of God and His only Son, Jesus Christ who shed his blood for all who would believe in Him and have eternal, everlasting life? Oh such distortion I seen when "works" are added to God's equation for salvation.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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As I believe we are in the last days I as well expect to see more and more distortion of the Word of God. I haven't been disappointed - lol
Yes, and it would seem a major distortion is shutting the gates of Heaven ....... and preaching that God is in the job of denying salvation to some and choosing others.
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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Why would anyone believe that God would deny salvation to anyone UNLESS they deny Him.
Tell me about it .......a God who does not want people saved only His select few.. the thread is now closed, however here it is in summary.

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921

And yes.... there are some who maybe not directly..... but indirectly by the dogma of predestination (God chooses who He wants and leaves the others in their sin and they have no choice) continually push this sad narrative which is outside of scripture.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I think like I posted almost ALL of those apposed to OSAS, have a totally False Idea of what we actually Teach and Believe. PLUS they think SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION ARE THE EXACT SAME THINK, which they are NOT. SALVATION of the Human Spirit happened before time began; while SANCTIFICATION is a life long process of learning to walk like JESUS walked. So why do they not LISTEN when we try to explain what we Teach and Believe ? ? ? Personally I think it is because that LIKE hating OSAS True Believers, even though it is a total LIE, it is like an addiction to that Hatred. I guess we show be thankful for when they Hate us.


John 15:18-21 (ESV)
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

They do not realize what worldly friendship with the World, is becoming an enemy of GOD.

James 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Adulteresses! Don’t you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy.

I must give the credit for that wisdom to my Pastor as that was last Sunday's Sermon. Personally, I think it is because they really LIKE hating OSAS True Believers, and therefore they refuse to hear what OSAS Truly Means, and stick with their FALSE ASSUMPTIONS.

Here is where I get that our human spirits were saved before the beginning of time:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

And here is where I get that we are Sanctified through the Process known as a SANCTIFICATION WALK.

1 John 2:6 (HCSB)
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.

1 Timothy 4:12 (ESV)
12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1 Timothy 4:15-16 (NASB)
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. {A Process of learning to walk like CHRIST.}
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation
{NOT that our deeds SAVE Ourselves, but rather give EVIDENCE that we WERE GENUINELY SAVED, before the beginning of time.}
both for yourself and for those who hear you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I must give the credit for that wisdom to my Pastor as that was last Sunday's Sermon. Personally, I think it is because they really LIKE hating OSAS True Believers, and therefore they refuse to hear what OSAS Truly Means, and stick with their FALSE ASSUMPTIONS.

Here is where I get that our human spirits were saved before the beginning of time:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

And here is where I get that we are Sanctified through the Process known as a SANCTIFICATION WALK.

1 John 2:6 (HCSB)
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.

1 Timothy 4:12 (ESV)
12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1 Timothy 4:15-16 (NASB)
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. {A Process of learning to walk like CHRIST.}
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation
{NOT that our deeds SAVE Ourselves, but rather give EVIDENCE that we WERE GENUINELY SAVED, before the beginning of time.}
both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Romans 6:19 (HCSB)
19 I am using a human analogy because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you offered the parts of yourselves as slaves {A Desire to Obey, A sincere "I WANT TO LIVE LIKE THIS", that has NOTHING to do with Salvation, HE changed our heart's desire.} to moral impurity, and to greater and greater lawlessness, so now offer them as slaves to righteousness, which results in sanctification.

Romans 6:22 (HCSB)
22 But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification—and the end is eternal life!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Tell me about it .......a God who does not want people saved only His select few.. the thread is now closed, however here it is in summary.

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921

And yes.... there are some who maybe not directly..... but indirectly by the dogma of predestination (God chooses who He wants and leaves the others in their sin and they have no choice) continually push this sad narrative which is outside of scripture.
Despite their sinning, God chooses to save a remnant of Israel, yet utterly destroys the rest of the nations. Gods love upon His elect of Israel is boundless, unilateral and infinite , Gods love upon the nations is finite and ultimately withdrawn.

God makes choices. A biblical fact and rightful attribute of God that the freewillers would deny God should possess, the very same right that they covet.

Jer 30:11
For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD. Though I will completely destroy all the nations to which I have scattered you, I will not completely destroy you. Yet I will discipline you justly, and will by no means leave you unpunished.”
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Why would anyone believe that God would deny salvation to anyone UNLESS they deny Him.
The underlying question is: HOW in the world people begin to believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord? Biblically speaking what is this spark, this mechanism, what is this process what is this procedure? Biblically speaking not speaking out of vain philosophy.

Does the Bible actually layout an order of events, a sequence? Does Jesus make mention of choice and a priority of choice?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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The underlying question is: HOW in the world people begin to believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord? Biblically speaking what is this spark, this mechanism, what is this process what is this procedure? Biblically speaking not speaking out of vain philosophy.

Does the Bible actually layout an order of events, a sequence? Does Jesus make mention of choice and a priority of choice?

God's Word is filled from front to back about the story of God's love for His mankind and all creatures. That's what the bible is all about. So my question is "How in the world can a human being not look around at the awesomeness of creation as well as the awesome and complexity of their own body and not believe in God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

The bible is filled with verses of how to come to the Lord Jesus (John 3:16) and the bible is full of "choice and consequence."
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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My devotion this morning was filled with how much God loves us and wants a relationship with us. It was also filled with how it pains God for us to "work so hard" to be good enough to have that relationship, fellowship with Him. We are clothed in His righteousness and that is what covers our filthy and sinful nature in order for us to spend time with Him and fellowship with Him. Works and striving to please Him is useless.
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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Despite their sinning, God chooses to save a remnant of Israel, yet utterly destroys the rest of the nations. Gods love upon His elect of Israel is boundless, unilateral and infinite , Gods love upon the nations is finite and ultimately withdrawn.

God makes choices. A biblical fact and rightful attribute of God that the freewillers would deny God should possess, the very same right that they covet.

Jer 30:11
For I am with you to save you, declares the LORD. Though I will completely destroy all the nations to which I have scattered you, I will not completely destroy you. Yet I will discipline you justly, and will by no means leave you unpunished.”
When have non Calvinists ever denied that God makes choices?

Goes does not elect some to salvation and deny others.

And I am not really sure what your point is in the above post?

You speak about this >>> His elect of Israel (individuals) and the try make a connection to this >>>> the nations (a group).

What nations specifically?
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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Here is where I get that our human spirits were saved before the beginning of time:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
This is not the pre-temporal decision of God of His selection of people, but of His plan of redemption.

The text clearly indicates that God has predetermined, before time began, that those who are saved will not be saved according to works but by His own purpose.
 

CherieR

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May 6, 2017
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Hello everyone. Please pray for me because I got the shingles and it hurts. I can't work with my regular job yet and probably not a good idea to doordash either. I do feel like I am learning through this and has caused me to remember the cross and what Jesus did for me that if he was willing to suffer like that he won't turn people away who come to him.