Not By Works

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mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Thanks for your informative analysis of Hebrews 6:4-9. Your Question: Can you show me the specific words, "lost salvation" in scripture? My Answer: Not those exact words.
Precisely.

Saying that I believe there are many scriptures that carry this thought such as Hebrews 6 discussed below. I would like first to consider context.

The book is addressed to Hebrew Christians [Anointed and saved] in Judea and contains both encouragement and counsel for Paul’s brothers. At Hebrews 3:1 Paul a ‘saved’ Christian is here addressing his brethren [brothers] also ‘saved’ Christians. In this verse he refers to these ones as ‘partakers’ of the Heavenly Calling [Such calling by operation of Holy Spirit upon them].
Although the writer of Hebrews is addressing Hebrew Christians/brethren (brothers) in his letter, that does not mean that EVERYONE in the group must be a genuine saved Christian. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with a group of genuine saved Christians. If the Pastor of a church (particular a very large church) addresses the congregation on Sunday morning as, "good norming brothers and sisters in Christ" and the message is specifically for believers, does that mean EVERYONE in the congregation on Sunday morning must be a genuine believer? NO. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed in together with just about any congregation, including this group of Hebrews.

Hebrews 3:4 - For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Those who do not hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end demonstrate they are not of the house of Christ.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Still addressing his anointed ‘saved’ brothers in Hebrews 6:4-6 he refers in part to ones who were made ‘partakers’ of Holy Spirit [Like his brothers] who ‘Fall Away’ from the faith. Rather than being a hypothetical statement I believe this to be a warning of the consequences to ones once ‘saved’ who abandon the faith.
As I already explained in post #148,488:

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39) Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

*So your argument is INCONCLUSIVE.

Paul then expresses his confidence in his brothers in Hebrews 6:9 than although he has spoken this way, he does not expect them to fall into the category of ones who ‘Fall Away’
Once again in Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

He then in Hebrews 6:11 emphasizes the need for his brothers to ‘show their diligence …unto the end’. In verse 12 he emphasizes the need for them not to be slothful and the need for faith and patience.
Hebrews 6:11 - And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Those who do not show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end and do not imitate those who through faith and patience inherit promises demonstrate they have a spurious faith.

Interestingly a similar warning was given by Paul to his brothers at Hebrews 3:12. Here Paul emphasizes that his brothers [Saved Christians] need to take heed lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Obviously if a ‘saved’ Christian were to allow this to happen the consequences for them would be as stated in Hebrews 6:6. In Hebrews 3:14 Paul states ‘we are made partakers in Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end’. This I believe emphasizes the need for ‘saved’ Christians to hold tight to their faith in Christ for fear in could be lost.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Considering whether or not Paul is talking about ‘saved’ Christians in Hebrews 6:4-6, it is worthy of note what he says about repentance. It is impossible for such ones who fall away to renew them to repentance. If this refers to ones who are merely ‘companions’ and in your words, have a less than saving association, then why would Paul state it would be impossible to renew such ones to repentance?
Once again, in regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. *Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

1 Corinthians 5 gives the account of an anointed [saved] Christian who sinned and was removed from the Congregation. Then in 2 Corinthians 2 we see he later repented and was re-instated. If an anointed [saved] Christian can sin grossly and be renewed to repentance, then why should it be impossible for one who is in the preliminary stages of becoming a Christian [your words].
This is not just about committing a gross sin then repenting afterwards in Hebrews 6:4-6. Those who sin against Christ in this way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience.

Clearly Paul is referring in Hebrews 6:4-6 to a sin of such gravity and by a person who is ‘saved’ like his brothers who as verse 6 says in part ‘crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh’. This obviously is not to be taken literally but rather by their wilfull rejection of Christ they in effect are saying his sacrifice is of no value [crucify him afresh].
Hebrews 6:4-6 does not specifically refer to those who fell away as "saved." Just as in Hebrews 10:26, in the Amplified Bible, we read - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate].

Hebrews 10:26-29 has a similar thought and is again addressed clearly to ‘saved’ Christians. In verse 19 Paul refers to them as his ‘brethren’ [brothers]. In verse 26/27 he clearly states ‘If we [saved Christians] sin wilfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Rather a fiery judgement that will devour such ones. Verse 29 shows Paul is referring to ‘sanctified ones’ and in verse 32 refers to them as being illuminated [enlightened].
Once again, although the letter of Hebrews is addressed to 'saved' Hebrew Christians, this does not mean that EVERYONE in the group must be a saved Christian. You are projecting your bias on the text. In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *Scripture must harmonize with Scripture.*

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant "saved," then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in this group of Hebrew Christians, but later renounces his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Deuteronomy 8:7 (NIV)
7 For the LORD your God is bringing you into a good land--a land with streams and pools of water, with springs flowing in the valleys and hills;
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Good morning folks. I have been away for a long time but I am back. Hope ya'll missed me a little bit. lol My husband had surgery mid- August right after we sold our house and moved temporarily into an apartment until we can find our new place of abode. He had bladder cancer last year and it has returned. He had surgery to remove and surgery was successful. He will now be on an immunotherapy regimen for a period of time in enable his body to help fight off this high rate of return cancer. We pray without ceasing that this regimen will succeed. Your prayers are appreciated. So glad to be back among fellow God lovers.
We missed you and your sword...keep swinging...the latest is a gospel-less salvation willed by God with no choice and context still being ignored by many......!
 
Apr 19, 2020
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Precisely.

The fact that exact words do not appear in scripture proves nothing. If this were the case no professed Christian should believe in the Trinity Doctrine. The word Trinity appears nowhere in scripture.

Although the writer of Hebrews is addressing Hebrew Christians/brethren (brothers) in his letter, that does not mean that EVERYONE in the group must be a genuine saved Christian.

How do you define a genuine saved Christian. At what stage does one become so? We’re not Paul’s brothers ‘born again’ Christians?

Hebrews 3:4 - For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Those who do not hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end demonstrate they are not of the house of Christ.

No argument here. Surely this is saying that one can only remain of the house of Christ IF (dependant upon) holding fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Does this not support the argument that one can be of the house of Christ and by not ‘holding fast‘ could lose that status?

, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here.

Disagree. The reference in Hebrews 3:8-10 you quote refers to God’s people the Israelites delivered from Egyptian bondage. They were a saved people in the sense of being delivered from their enslavement. The verses clearly state why they could not enter God’s rest i.e. They hardened their hearts and rebelled (wilfull disobedience). Through this act of rebellion they lost their ‘saved’ standing with God. Hebrews 3:12 we see Paul after citing the rebellious course of the Israelites and its consequences, in this verse next tells his brothers ’saved’ Christians to beware of developing a same wicked heart and drawing away from God. His brothers were in a ‘saved’ condition. Paul did not want them to lose that status by rebelling (wilfully disobeying) as the Israelites in Moses day did.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

KJV of this verse Jude 1:5 reads in part ‘ having saved the people out of the land of Egypt.

As I already explained in post #148,488:

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39) Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

I do not concur Paul was addressing ones in the beginning stages of becoming a Christian for reasons stated in my previous post. I believe Paul in Hebrews 6:4-6 is addressing truly ‘saved’ anointed ‘born again’ Christians like himself.



) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

I understand the metaphor relating to agriculture at Hebrews 6:7-8 and agree our spiritual condition is related to fruits we bear. I also agree in these verses that Paul is talking of ones who are not genuine believers. Certainly ones who are in a ‘saved’ condition and who subsequently fall away and rebel against God and effectively ‘crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh’ would certainly fit into that category. These are the ones I believe Paul is referring to.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Therefore based on Hebrews 3:14 would it not be fair to say those who have become partakers of Christ (truly born again Christians) are ‘saved’ ? Would it also then be fair to say that if such ones we’re not to hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end, they could lose that ‘saved‘ status as did the Israelites in the days of Moses.
.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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The fact that exact words do not appear in scripture proves nothing.
You would think that if a really "saved" person could really "lose their salvation" then those exact words would be spelled out in scripture, but those exact words are nowhere to be found in scripture.

If this were the case no professed Christian should believe in the Trinity Doctrine. The word Trinity appears nowhere in scripture.
The word specific word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but scripture teaches that there is one God in essence/nature, yet three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit which the word "Trinity" is used to describe.

How do you define a genuine saved Christian. At what stage does one become so? We’re not Paul’s brothers ‘born again’ Christians?
A genuine saved Christian truly believes the gospel. Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

No argument here. Surely this is saying that one can only remain of the house of Christ IF (dependant upon) holding fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Does this not support the argument that one can be of the house of Christ and by not ‘holding fast‘ could lose that status?
The word "remain" is not found in the text. There is no mention of losing the status of being of the house of Christ by failing to hold fast. You are reading your own preconceived ideas into the text. It's called eisegesis. Once again, the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) or remain partakers of Christ if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Disagree. The reference in Hebrews 3:8-10 you quote refers to God’s people the Israelites delivered from Egyptian bondage. They were a saved people in the sense of being delivered from their enslavement.
So "always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways" = spiritually saved to you? Really? The Israelites were all saved in the sense of being "delivered from bondage in Egypt," but that does not mean they were all spiritually saved, as we read in Jude 1:5 - ..later destroyed those who did not believe.

The verses clearly state why they could not enter God’s rest i.e. They hardened their hearts and rebelled (wilfull disobedience). Through this act of rebellion they lost their ‘saved’ standing with God.
No, nothing is mentioned about them losing anything. Hardened hearts and rebellion (willful disobedience) is a manifestation of unbelief. If someone is still in the process of becoming a partaker of Christ and are among genuine believers and have received the knowledge of the truth and are still in the process of considering the truth, but then decide to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul, that person was never saved. Hebrews 3:18 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 3:12 we see Paul after citing the rebellious course of the Israelites and its consequences, in this verse next tells his brothers ’saved’ Christians to beware of developing a same wicked heart and drawing away from God. His brothers were in a ‘saved’ condition. Paul did not want them to lose that status by rebelling (wilfully disobeying) as the Israelites in Moses day did.
No and although the letter is written to 'saved' Christians, there are "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group, as we saw in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:2-3.

KJV of this verse Jude 1:5 reads in part ‘ having saved the people out of the land of Egypt.
Yes, saved "in the sense" of "delivering the Israelites from bondage in Egypt," (NIV) but not in the sense of saving them all spiritually. Notice that after God delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, He later destroyed those who did not believe and not stopped believing.

I do not concur Paul was addressing ones in the beginning stages of becoming a Christian for reasons stated in my previous post. I believe Paul in Hebrews 6:4-6 is addressing truly ‘saved’ anointed ‘born again’ Christians like himself.
Yet you have no unequivocal proof that those who 'fell away' were 'saved' anointed 'born again' Christians like Paul. The context indicates otherwise.

I understand the metaphor relating to agriculture at Hebrews 6:7-8 and agree our spiritual condition is related to fruits we bear. I also agree in these verses that Paul is talking of ones who are not genuine believers. Certainly ones who are in a ‘saved’ condition and who subsequently fall away and rebel against God and effectively ‘crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh’ would certainly fit into that category. These are the ones I believe Paul is referring to.
Still you have no unequivocal proof that genuine saved believers lost their salvation.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Therefore based on Hebrews 3:14 would it not be fair to say those who have become partakers of Christ (truly born again Christians) are ‘saved’ ?
Yes.

Would it also then be fair to say that if such ones we’re not to hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end, they could lose that ‘saved‘ status as did the Israelites in the days of Moses.
Based on biased human logic, but not based on scripture. Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. So "will become or will remain" (which is not mentioned in the text) partakers of Christ if we hold fast is speculation. 'Losing salvation' is in 'contradiction' to these passages of scripture below:

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Psalm 23:1-3 (NKJV)
1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Psalm 23:1-3 (NKJV)
1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.

That is one calming picture! :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Psalm 23:1-3 (NKJV)
1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
Just a factual statement.....deer, sheep etc....are very unsettled by waters that are rough, choppy and noisy because they cannot hear the danger approaching....

:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You know, my bible states clearly....

a. All of creation testifies in every known language

b. The invisible testifies to the power of God and the God head

c. Jesus loved the KOSMOS <-WHOLE ORDER OF THINGS

d. God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

e. Christ paid for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD....not just a few extra special religionists

And my bible states clearly....FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

We now have some being allowed to peddle a forced, no choice, gospel-less salvation on this site and a god that chooses extra special man "A" for heaven while man "B thru Z" is just out of luck because the GOD of LOVE hates them and made them specifically for hell.

My bible says clearly that HELL was made for the devil and his angels and that CHRIST DIED TO REDEEM MEN......not that he made them specifically for hell.

Do not buy this Calvinite farce that is being peddled on this site. It is false and not biblical!
 
Apr 19, 2020
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You would think that if a really "saved" person could really "lose their salvation" then those exact words would be spelled out in scripture, but those exact words are nowhere to be found in scripture.

The word specific word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but scripture teaches that there is one God in essence/nature, yet three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit which the word "Trinity" is used to describe.

My point is that although the word Trinity is not found in scripture does not stop you accepting and believing the doctrine. Likewise the fact that the exact words ‘lost salvation’ are not found in scripture does not prove that this is not possible.

A genuine saved Christian truly believes the gospel.

I notice you have avoided answering my question to you: At what stage do you say one becomes a genuine ‘saved’ Christian.

'Losing salvation' is in 'contradiction' to these passages of scripture below:

No contradiction in my mind. I comment on the verses below:

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

The Hebrew word translated ‘Saints‘ in this verse also has the meaning of faithful/Holy ones. Certainly God would never forsake those faithful to him. Faithful ones will certainly be preserved forever. There is personal responsibility on the individual to maintain their faithfulness. For ones proving unfaithful and drawing away from God and wilfully rejecting the Christ opposite they would fall into the category of ‘wicked‘ mentioned in this verse.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

A righteous person due to some spiritual weakness or adversity may fall into sin. They ‘rise again’ by sincerely repenting and resuming their faithful course with the help of our merciful God. This is far different from one who wilfully rejects and disobeys the Christ.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

The Father certainly draws us to Christ. Jesus will certainly not cast out the one who comes to him. Saying that, each Christian has responsibility to maintain that intimate relationship. 2 Corinthians 6:1 ‘receive not the grace of God in vain’. One cannot presume upon that intimacy with Christ and hold his good standing with God.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jesus sheep ‘hear’ his voice and ‘follow’ him. If they continue to do so, Jesus will not allow anyone or anything to snatch them out of his hand. Should one of these wilfully choose to stop hearing and following Christ and reject him Jesus will cast them off.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I imagine the reason you cite this verse is the use of the word predestined. Whether or not individual Christians are ‘predestined’ for heavenly life is another topic for discussion.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

In both the verses you cite from Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 it talks of sealing by Holy Spirit. The Bible record shows that first century Christians were indeed sealed shortly after they heard the good news and became believers in Christ (Acts 8:15-17; 10:44). Such sealing demonstrated God’s approval of them. However, it did not show God’s final approval. Ephesians 4:30 states Christians are ‘sealed for the day of redemption’. This indicates the passing of time is involved after the initial sealing. They are sealed with Holy Spirit until they are released from their fleshly bodies i.e. until their death. Only at the very end of Paul’s life could he say what is recorded in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. Jesus also said to the Congregation of anointed Christians the words at Revelation 2:10; 17:14. Maintaining Faithfulness until the end is required to receive the crown of life.
Another interesting point to note is in Ephesians 4:30 Where speaking directly to sealed anointed saved Christians. Paul tells them not to grieve the Holy Spirit of God. How do you think they could do this and what would be the consequences if doing so. The fact these ones were given this warning strongly indicates there was a real danger they could grieve the Holy Spirit.
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VCO

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Genesis 2:10 (NIV)
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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You know, my bible states clearly....

a. All of creation testifies in every known language

b. The invisible testifies to the power of God and the God head

c. Jesus loved the KOSMOS <-WHOLE ORDER OF THINGS

d. God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

e. Christ paid for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD....not just a few extra special religionists

And my bible states clearly....FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

We now have some being allowed to peddle a forced, no choice, gospel-less salvation on this site and a god that chooses extra special man "A" for heaven while man "B thru Z" is just out of luck because the GOD of LOVE hates them and made them specifically for hell.

My bible says clearly that HELL was made for the devil and his angels and that CHRIST DIED TO REDEEM MEN......not that he made them specifically for hell.

Do not buy this Calvinite farce that is being peddled on this site. It is false and not biblical!
Sadly ... some already have bought into it... they have been deceived by its very False PIETY !!

What is false piety in the end... Phariseism
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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My point is that although the word Trinity is not found in scripture does not stop you accepting and believing the doctrine. Likewise the fact that the exact words ‘lost salvation’ are not found in scripture does not prove that this is not possible.
You need to learn how to use the "QUOTE" brackets. There are numerous scriptures that back up there is one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Colossians 2:9 uses the term, "Godhead" which describes how all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form completely expressing the divine essence of God. So we don't see the specific words, "lose salvation" and we also don't see the specific words, "UN-saved," "UN-regenerated" or "UN-sealed" by the Holy Spirit. I find no unequivocal proof in scripture that a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." I've noticed that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works (including Roman Catholicism and Mormonism) strongly oppose OSAS and teach that salvation can be lost, which has always been a red flag for me.

I notice you have avoided answering my question to you: At what stage do you say one becomes a genuine ‘saved’ Christian.
I already answered your question. A person becomes a genuine 'saved' Christian the moment that they believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

No contradiction in my mind. I comment on the verses below:
So forever does not really mean forever to you and once again you have resorted to eisegesis in order to explain these passages of scripture away.

The Hebrew word translated ‘Saints‘ in this verse also has the meaning of faithful/Holy ones. Certainly God would never forsake those faithful to him.
Only His saints are considered to be faithful to Him. You turn "faithful to Him" into "type 2 works salvation."

Faithful ones will certainly be preserved forever. There is personal responsibility on the individual to maintain their faithfulness.
I see that you are turning this into "type 2 works salvation." So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to preserve you?

For ones proving unfaithful and drawing away from God and wilfully rejecting the Christ opposite they would fall into the category of ‘wicked‘ mentioned in this verse.
More eisegesis. Such people that you describe would only prove they were never truly saved and preserved to begin with. There are two separate categories of people here. "God's saints who are preserved forever" and "the descendants of the wicked." You seem to believe that God only preserves those who preserve themselves.

A righteous person due to some spiritual weakness or adversity may fall into sin. They ‘rise again’ by sincerely repenting and resuming their faithful course with the help of our merciful God. This is far different from one who wilfully rejects and disobeys the Christ.
At least you acknowledge the former. One who willfully rejects and continuously disobeys Christ demonstrates they are not born of God. ( Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 3:7-10)

The Father certainly draws us to Christ. Jesus will certainly not cast out the one who comes to him.
Amen! Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted him from the Father, we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

Saying that, each Christian has responsibility to maintain that intimate relationship. 2 Corinthians 6:1 ‘receive not the grace of God in vain’. One cannot presume upon that intimacy with Christ and hold his good standing with God.
So how do you maintain that intimate relationship all by yourself? More self preservation? God's grace may be received in vain (believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose) when it is received superficially or externally (1 Corinthians 15:2) or when neglecting the importance of the Corinthians responding to God’s grace in humble obedience and seizing every opportunity to be pleasing to the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:9).

Jesus sheep ‘hear’ his voice and ‘follow’ him. If they continue to do so, Jesus will not allow anyone or anything to snatch them out of his hand. Should one of these wilfully choose to stop hearing and following Christ and reject him Jesus will cast them off.
More eisegesis. Jesus clearly stated - My sheep hear My voice (not some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them (not some of them I know and some of them I don't know) and they follow Me (not some of them follow Me and some of them don't follow Me) and I give them eternal life (not some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they will never perish (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) and no one will snatch them out of My hand (not some of them will not be snatched from My hand and some of them will be snatched from My hand).
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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I imagine the reason you cite this verse is the use of the word predestined. Whether or not individual Christians are ‘predestined’ for heavenly life is another topic for discussion.
In regards to predestination, this is associated with God's foreknowledge. Romans 8:29 - For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren. The reason I cited Romans 8:30 is because of the words I bolded...and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

In both the verses you cite from Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 it talks of sealing by Holy Spirit. The Bible record shows that first century Christians were indeed sealed shortly after they heard the good news and became believers in Christ (Acts 8:15-17; 10:44). Such sealing demonstrated God’s approval of them. However, it did not show God’s final approval. Ephesians 4:30 states Christians are ‘sealed for the day of redemption’. This indicates the passing of time is involved after the initial sealing. They are sealed with Holy Spirit until they are released from their fleshly bodies i.e. until their death. Only at the very end of Paul’s life could he say what is recorded in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. Jesus also said to the Congregation of anointed Christians the words at Revelation 2:10; 17:14. Maintaining Faithfulness until the end is required to receive the crown of life.
More eisegesis. More "type 2 works salvation." Believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto/for the day of redemption. *Nothing is mentioned about them becoming UN-sealed along the way or sealed unto/for the day of condemnation.

In regards to 2 Timothy 4:6-8, of course Paul has kept the faith, as do all who are truly born of God. Paul mentions a "crown of righteousness" and there are multiple crowns mentioned in scripture: The imperishable crown, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory and the crown of life. (1 Corinthians 9:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10)

In regards to Revelation 2:10, if this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!

*In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

In regards to Revelation 17:14, called, chosen, and faithful is 'descriptive' of those who are born of God. Notice that Romans 8:30 mentions those who are called. You must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.

Another interesting point to note is in Ephesians 4:30 Where speaking directly to sealed anointed saved Christians. Paul tells them not to grieve the Holy Spirit of God. How do you think they could do this and what would be the consequences if doing so. The fact these ones were given this warning strongly indicates there was a real danger they could grieve the Holy Spirit.
As Greek scholar AT Robertson stated: Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God (mh lupeite to pneuma to agion tou qeou). "Cease grieving" or "do not have the habit of grieving." Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit?

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...ID/29303/eVerseID/29303/RTD/rwpnt/version/amp

No loss of salvation is mentioned in Ephesians 4:30 as a consequence of grieving the Holy Spirit, obviously or else believers would not be sealed unto/for the day of redemption. The Lord does discipline His children though. (Hebrews 12:6)
 

EleventhHour

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Calvinism’s God believes in a faithless God‘s chosen/elect

There is no such thing

No one is elect (a descriptor) until they have faith.