Not By Works

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star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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As for christian "obligation" how does that fit in with OSAS sealed by the Holy Spirit? We Christians seek to find ways to do good for those less fortunate in this world, pray for those sick and suffering and lend a hand in any way we can. I don't call that an "obligation" but I call that a response to the HS leadership and guidance.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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As for christian "obligation" how does that fit in with OSAS sealed by the Holy Spirit? We Christians seek to find ways to do good for those less fortunate in this world, pray for those sick and suffering and lend a hand in any way we can. I don't call that an "obligation" but I call that a response to the HS leadership and guidance.

Your last two posts are pure Satire.

No WE cannot lose our Salvation IF IS WAS REAL. A lot of people are not really Christians, they are just Church goers. I used to be one of those, until shortly before I turned 29. I would day dream through EVERY Sermon, and one time I had nothing to day dream about, so I COUNTED the Ceiling Tiles; and all the time I thought I was Christian because I was sitting in a pew, and because of my infant Baptism. The last week of 1977, I found out what it means to be a REAL CHRISTIAN. I truly SURRENDERED TO HIM LOVINGLY AS LORD OF MY LIFE, FOREVER. After two or three hours of genuinely mourning over my utter sinfulness, and three attempts at suicide that week; THAT WAS THE FIRST MOMENT THAT I BECAME A REAL CHRISTIAN, prior to that I was just a Church Goer.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

How can those WHO DO NOT BELIEVE in OSAS, read those verses, and still DOUBT the POWER OF GOD TO SAVE US all by HIMSELF; before time began?

Romans 3:28 (GWT)
28 We conclude that a person has God's approval by faith, not by his own efforts.


HE HAS GIVEN US A NEW HEART, that no longer thinks like the Heart of Stone.

Ezekiel 11:19 (HCSB)
19 And I will give them one heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove their heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh,
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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You brought up the "overused" issue.
I didn't bring up the issue of label overuse...some OSAS person did when I referred to OSAS as a "License to sin". I responded by reminded them that if overuse of the word "Legalism" was an Olympic event, the OSAS crowd would win gold, silver, and bronze.
Doesn't bother me either because I know the power of my salvation and the eternal length of it depends on the Blood of Jesus and not some "mandate, legalist, work" formula. Incomplete knowledge is a great way to look at those who do not believe salvation is once and for all.
When you finally understand God's CHARACTER, you'll discover that salvation isn't a jail cell in which we are locked -- the door is always open to welcome in sinners and to allow departure of anyone wishing to go back to their vomit, mire, pollutions of this world, shakedown of their fellow servants, and be disconnected Vine branches that wither and get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

When you finally understand LOVE you'll see that faithfulness is evidence of it, while the absence of faithfulness proves love is absent, as well -- just as a husband is faithful to his bride. For some reason, the OSAS crowd seeks to excuse marital infidelity but also to retain the rights, privilege, and dignity of marriage. Could it be "love of the flesh"?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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Phoneman-777 , This Christian Obligation that you speak of sounds to me like working for salvation. How does a Christian know they are engaging in
“ habitual, impenitent sin”? How do you distinguish this sin from the regular sin one does because we all fall short of God’s glory? If salvation is dependent upon not engaging even slightly in habitual impenitent sin , couldn’t losing salvation become in the minds of some a persistent obsession and fear? Why do you believe that Christian Obligation as you speak of has to be added to save? Isn’t the shed blood of the Lord Jesus, his death and resurrection enough? Jesus is able to save us, he doesn’t need our help in the salvation. We need him!
Words mean things, right? So, let's slow down are read them, shall we?

"Christian Origination" = how a Christian comes into existence: by grace through faith, not of works, right? No problemo.

"Christian Obligation" = what a faithful, grace-saved Christian is required by God to do: to render "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" and render "reasonable service" and render "unprofitable" servitude.

The very Jesus you claim as Savior asks, "And why callest thou Me Lord Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
James says you an I are to show our faith "by my works", not by the absence of them.

OSAS is a pipe dream whereby sinners attempt to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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Words mean things, right? So, let's slow down are read them, shall we?

"Christian Origination" = how a Christian comes into existence: by grace through faith, not of works, right? No problemo.

"Christian Obligation" = what a faithful, grace-saved Christian is required by God to do: to render "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" and render "reasonable service" and render "unprofitable" servitude.

The very Jesus you claim as Savior asks, "And why callest thou Me Lord Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
James says you an I are to show our faith "by my works", not by the absence of them.

OSAS is a pipe dream whereby sinners attempt to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.
I disagree. Have you ever dealt with fear God would cast you away? John 6:37 tells me Jesus will not cast me away. The parable of the prodigal son shows the love and acceptance of God.

Why do you say “The very Jesus I claim as my Saviour“?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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I disagree. Have you ever dealt with fear God would cast you away? John 6:37 tells me Jesus will not cast me away. The parable of the prodigal son shows the love and acceptance of God.

Why do you say “The very Jesus I claim as my Saviour“?
Why do you want Jesus only as your Savior, but not as your Lord? Don't you realize that He has to be both for us?

He stands ready to offer you power to overcome sinful habits - sins which the Christian knows is wrong, but habitually commits without regard to ever overcoming them. There is no cover for such sins, for "if we sin willfully after receiveing a knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin..." We cannot continue to sin willfully and yet claim presumptuously the promises of God, which thing David calls "the great transgression".

Whatever your sin and my sin, we can overcome just as surely as Christ was born to save us. It's a matter of the will. Do you pray every day, "Not my will, but Thy will'? Surely, it is not His will that we continue in habitual sin, especially when overcoming ANY sin is guaranteed if we simply do three things everyday: pray, mediate on His Word, and witness to the world of the transforming power of His grace. Yes, victory is guaranteed through the indwelling power of Jesus, while steadfast rebellion and presumption is evidence we know not our Lord and Savior. :)
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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@Phoneman-777 , I never said I didn’t want Jesus as my Lord. That is a misunderstanding. I look forward to the day when I don’t sin anymore. Sin just causes more pain and brokenness in the world.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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@Phoneman-777 , it seems to me you have a misunderstanding of OSAS believers. Most OSAS believers don’t want to sin all they please. Rather when you love God, naturally you want to serve him and do what pleases him.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Why do you want Jesus only as your Savior, but not as your Lord? Don't you realize that He has to be both for us?

He stands ready to offer you power to overcome sinful habits - sins which the Christian knows is wrong, but habitually commits without regard to ever overcoming them. There is no cover for such sins, for "if we sin willfully after receiveing a knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sin..." We cannot continue to sin willfully and yet claim presumptuously the promises of God, which thing David calls "the great transgression".

Whatever your sin and my sin, we can overcome just as surely as Christ was born to save us. It's a matter of the will. Do you pray every day, "Not my will, but Thy will'? Surely, it is not His will that we continue in habitual sin, especially when overcoming ANY sin is guaranteed if we simply do three things everyday: pray, mediate on His Word, and witness to the world of the transforming power of His grace. Yes, victory is guaranteed through the indwelling power of Jesus, while steadfast rebellion and presumption is evidence we know not our Lord and Savior. :)

sinless perfectionism in this life is not possible.

telling yourself you do not sin is a lie. and that is s sin.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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@Phoneman-777 , it seems to me you have a misunderstanding of OSAS believers. Most OSAS believers don’t want to sin all they please. Rather when you love God, naturally you want to serve him and do what pleases him.
He is attacking a doctrine he hates because he does not understand it, and because eye hates it he will not take the time to understand and maybe find out he was wrong all along,
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,547
2,011
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North Carolina
I didn't bring up the issue of label overuse...some OSAS person did when I referred to OSAS as a "License to sin". I responded by reminded them that if overuse of the word "Legalism" was an Olympic event, the OSAS crowd would win gold, silver, and bronze.
When you finally understand God's CHARACTER, you'll discover that salvation isn't a jail cell in which we are locked -- the door is always open to welcome in sinners and to allow departure of anyone wishing to go back to their vomit, mire, pollutions of this world, shakedown of their fellow servants, and be disconnected Vine branches that wither and get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

When you finally understand LOVE you'll see that faithfulness is evidence of it, while the absence of faithfulness proves love is absent, as well -- just as a husband is faithful to his bride. For some reason, the OSAS crowd seeks to excuse marital infidelity but also to retain the rights, privilege, and dignity of marriage. Could it be "love of the flesh"?

Please refrain from being condescending to me. You sir do not own the only key to God nor Love. You either do not "understand" Seal" by the HS or you are to busy "judging" those who believe in the Power of the Blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins, past, present, future. You seem to lack understanding of the power of the Holy Spirit to keep what Jesus has bought and paid for unto eternity. Look first at the plank in your own eye before you try and remove the plank in anyone else's eye. The worse "pollution" in this world are those to judge others without looking within themselves. Every single remark you made above about "salvation and its permanency" believing people is just your opinion and not scriptural.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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When you finally understand LOVE you'll see that faithfulness is evidence of it, while the absence of faithfulness proves love is absent, as well -- just as a husband is faithful to his bride. For some reason, the OSAS crowd seeks to excuse marital infidelity but also to retain the rights, privilege, and dignity of marriage. Could it be "love of the flesh"?
How many people do you know who are in the OSAS CROWD HAVE SAID ITS A LICENSE TO SIN?

You do a miservice and a judgement call on people like me and the majority of the crowd of OSAS do not use it as a license to sin and do INFACT LOVE JESUS AND WANT TO BE LIKE HIM.

That being the case we are still faithfull to our saviour BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. We seek him for help with our struggles.
Yet you say otherwise. All you see is OSAS as you understand it and not the person.
Your comment sicken me and make my blood boil.

Just like the only 2 people in my 36 years as a follower of Jesus who have said to me "I can sin all I want and still be saved" That sickens me.
For both I talked about Romans 5-6. One repented the other didn't.

So how many people who are OSAS do you know who have said "I can sin all I want?
How many people do you know, even on here have you asked "Do you believe you can sin all you want and still be saved?

Put up or shut up with your rhetoric.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,916
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Please refrain from being condescending to me. You sir do not own the only key to God nor Love. You either do not "understand" Seal" by the HS or you are to busy "judging" those who believe in the Power of the Blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins, past, present, future. You seem to lack understanding of the power of the Holy Spirit to keep what Jesus has bought and paid for unto eternity. Look first at the plank in your own eye before you try and remove the plank in anyone else's eye. The worse "pollution" in this world are those to judge others without looking within themselves. Every single remark you made above about "salvation and its permanency" believing people is just your opinion and not scriptural.
sadly, Modern day pharisees are just like their jewish counterparts.

They have no true faith, and are angry when they are told this. So they act out. Attack and do all the things they do.

When your faith is insecure, your forced to live in pride, or own up to the reality of your situation
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,547
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North Carolina
I actually feel sad for those who believe they can lose their salvation. How can they have any hope and peace about their eternal destination?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,547
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113
North Carolina
No one I know believes, if they are saved and a new creature, they can live in sin and receive God's favor. Those christians I know work for the spread of the Good News and to help others.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I actually feel sad for those who believe they can lose their salvation. How can they have any hope and peace about their eternal destination?
They cannot have any peace at all.

The focus will always be on why and what they believe can cause the loss of salvation.
And therein lies the problem.

The focus is on what they need to do rather than who they are already in Christ.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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As for christian "obligation" how does that fit in with OSAS sealed by the Holy Spirit? We Christians seek to find ways to do good for those less fortunate in this world, pray for those sick and suffering and lend a hand in any way we can. I don't call that an "obligation" but I call that a response to the HS leadership and guidance.
The apostle John often uses the word “ ought”, which pretty much means an obligation, but it is not a obligation in the sense of we are giving something to God to pay for or to keep our salvation. It is a joyful obligation and a debt that is to be motivated by love, not fear; liberty, not legality ;gratitude, not mere compulsion. As Paul said” I am debtor to the Greek and the Barbarian, both to the wise and the unwise...so I am ready to preach the Gospel...

Work of faith, labor of love, patience of hope.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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@Phoneman-777 , I never said I didn’t want Jesus as my Lord. That is a misunderstanding. I look forward to the day when I don’t sin anymore. Sin just causes more pain and brokenness in the world.
Please understand the Bible puts a massive difference between a born again, grace-saved just man who falls into sin -- and -- one who deliberately climbs down into it and refuses to leave. While there is mercy for the former, there is no hope for the latter.

Most people think the Bible teaches when Jesus comes He pushes a switch in our brain that makes a person hate deliberate known sin and push over the ladder leading down to it, as if that switch suddenly makes him prefer to die rather than indulge it. That is supposed to happen the moment we are born again for we are to walk according to the rule of the "new creature" in Christ Jesus, not the old creature of flesh.

What will change when Jesus comes is that the devil will no longer be able to tempt and harass us to sin, in the same way a wife who strives to give up smoking might be harassed and tempted by her insensitive husband who chooses to continue the habit. If the husband has a change of heart and joins her in a united effort to live healthier, isn't it far easier for the wife to realize her goal?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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@Phoneman-777 , it seems to me you have a misunderstanding of OSAS believers. Most OSAS believers don’t want to sin all they please. Rather when you love God, naturally you want to serve him and do what pleases him.
Doesn't the Bible teach that sin isn't part of the Christian life? How do we determine how much sin in the life of a OSAS believer is acceptable in God's sight?