Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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it is about salvation by grace through faith, then that salvation MUST be demonstrated by doing good works, abstaining from sin.


those are not bad things, but the main falsehood of lordship salvation is that if someone is not visibly walking out salvation, then they are not saved.

it makes a cast system that some ( see phoneman777) stand in judgement over others.

a noble concept that easily falls into a man-made religion.
Ok.

I read the following

https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/20...ation-vv-easy-believism-vv-reformed-theology/

Does it sum it up?

I resonate with the guilt bit.
Boy was I made to feel guilty by the church (aka the member's) who made me feel so guilty and worthless because I was struggling and as a result NOT PERFORMING OR DOING.

Those that did so assumed I wasn't saved because I stopped to church yet not one sort me out to find out why.

Yes I stopped going to church but never lost my faith in Jesus.
I had a ministry, got burned out asked for help when I stepped down and was refused because I was no longer giving out.

Even asked for help for my past experiences which was affecting my present.
Things like sexual abuse, being thrown out at 14 by my mum which led to the sexual abuse. Lot of hurt and pain, led to addictions and the list goes on.

What is most shocking was the following I was told "Bible says don't do so don't do it"

Really??

The second person who said along that line to me I lost the plot.
I said "If I could just stop then I wouldn't be asking you for help"
That was the polite version.

Very sad indeed that Christians shoot their wounded rather than tend to them.

They obviously have never read where God says "A bruised reed I will not break"

I lost my faith in the people of the church and not God.
I called out to God every day for deliverance and praise him in his time (about 15 years) he put me on the heart of a new leader of my church to seek me out.

He was/is an amazing man of God and he walked with me had through Jesus restored me.

If lordship slavation affects people like it did me then it is an abhorrent doctrine and a fatal heresy and they will answer for it and will probably have their works burned up.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
1,520
113
Ok.

I read the following

https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/20...ation-vv-easy-believism-vv-reformed-theology/

Does it sum it up?

I resonate with the guilt bit.
Boy was I made to feel guilty by the church (aka the member's) who made me feel so guilty and worthless because I was struggling and as a result NOT PERFORMING OR DOING.

Those that did so assumed I wasn't saved because I stopped to church yet not one sort me out to find out why.

Yes I stopped going to church but never lost my faith in Jesus.
I had a ministry, got burned out asked for help when I stepped down and was refused because I was no longer giving out.

Even asked for help for my past experiences which was affecting my present.
Things like sexual abuse, being thrown out at 14 by my mum which led to the sexual abuse. Lot of hurt and pain, led to addictions and the list goes on.

What is most shocking was the following I was told "Bible says don't do so don't do it"

Really??

The second person who said along that line to me I lost the plot.
I said "If I could just stop then I wouldn't be asking you for help"
That was the polite version.

Very sad indeed that Christians shoot their wounded rather than tend to them.

They obviously have never read where God says "A bruised reed I will not break"

I lost my faith in the people of the church and not God.
I called out to God every day for deliverance and praise him in his time (about 15 years) he put me on the heart of a new leader of my church to seek me out.

He was/is an amazing man of God and he walked with me had through Jesus restored me.

If lordship slavation affects people like it did me then it is an abhorrent doctrine and a fatal heresy and they will answer for it and will probably have their works burned up.
Thank you for sharing. This the reason i challenge people on this terrible doctrine. Christians don't realise how damaging it is .
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
1,797
292
83
This is what you said .
//Remember OT directive "The just shall live by faith"? //
This is the actual verse .
4Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith
So what? Both convey the SAME thought: that a just man in the OT was to live by faith in the same way the just man in the NT is to live: by faith.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
1,797
292
83
The oc was not ratified merely with the blood of animals. Israel's elders and leaders accepted the oc in exodus 24, before it can be ratified. They needed to say the critical words “all that the lord command we will do and obey.”
The shed blood was the last thing to happen, right?
Israel rejected Christ. The Sanhedrin killed Stephen in acts 7
Since when does the heretical actions of the Jewish leaders discount the existence of the NC to which many Jewish believers entered when they heard the Gospel and became Christian converts? Did the Sanhedrin's rejection of it disallow ordinary Jews' acceptance of it? Of course not.
You cannot force a new covenant onto a nation that didn’t want to have anything to do with it. They need to say the critical words “blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord”
You cannot force a subjective standard which claims nobody could partake of the NC since the Jewish leaders refused to partake. Do you know what a "saint" is?

Psalms 50:5 "Gather my saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice."
So, as I said, the blood of Jesus ratified the NC and anyone who followed the command to "take up his Cross" entered it.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
1,797
292
83
Yes its still Jesus, about Jesus , For Jesus from start to finish.
So, why dream up a set of dispensational rules for salvation? The issue in the beginning was a choice to worship God and avoid the Tree or worship Satan and eat of it...the last issue will be the exact same thing: are we going to worship God and receive the Seal, or will we worship Satan and receive the Mark of the Beast.

No secret rapture, not one set of rules for God's people throughout the centuries, but a special set for those living in the "last seven years of tribulation" -- mainly because Peter says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, the Earth will not be able to sustain life for seven seconds, let alone seven years.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
1,797
292
83
The oc was not ratified merely with the blood of animals. Israel's elders and leaders accepted the oc in exodus 24, before it can be ratified.

They needed to say the critical words “all that the lord command we will do and obey.”

Israel rejected Christ. The Sanhedrin killed Stephen in acts 7

You cannot force a new covenant onto a nation that didn’t want to have anything to do with it. They need to say the critical words “blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord”
The NC is not between God and "leadership" - it is between Him and individuals; believers who take hold of the covenant promises by faith.

FYI, a "last will and testament (aka covenant) is a document that can be altered or even abolished while the "testator" is alive, because it's just a piece of paper....but the instant he dies, it instantly becomes a legally recognized force over the affairs of men. Does the Bible agree?

Hebrews (KJV)
9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

What ratified the OC?

9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated (ratified) without blood.
9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
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If only that was what ' Lordship salvation ' is . We get a good reminder of the reality of it everytime we look at our watches. Calvin made Jewellery a bad thing in the church , a sin . Not befitting of a person claiming Jesus to be Lord . Naturally man tends to have a work a round for 'rules 'and came up with a time piece instead.. Watches became more and more fancy. like jewellery. The flesh is just provoked more with 'Lordship 'salvation .

You do not UNDERSTAND LORSHIP SALVATION at all. You only understand what some false prophet has said it was.

I was BORN AGAIN in a LORDSHIP SALVATION CHURCH, and Dr. John MacArthur was my main disciple. AND you the stuff you have been spewing is TOTALLY FALSE. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Calvinism.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,617
271
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...I was BORN AGAIN in a LORDSHIP SALVATION CHURCH, and Dr. John MacArthur was my main disciple.
Was John MacArthur your disciple? You must be a man of good old age, if so. Or rather you were his disciple?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
4,075
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look at phoneman's posts.

that version of lordship salvation is very off-putting.

someone who knows the Bible sees that attitude, and runs away from it.

He has earned a right to be on my IGNORE LIST and I want to keep it that way. Now you must be from a different part of the Country, as I have never heard of the expression: off-putting.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
4,075
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Was John MacArthur your disciple? You must be a man of good old age, if so. Or rather you were his disciple?
Yes, I had at one time over 500 of Dr. John MacArthur sermon tapes, each an hour long, and listened to all of them 4 times each. Yes, I am 72 years old, and HIS sermons are still on GRACE TO YOU radio program, I think.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
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The shed blood was the last thing to happen, right?
Since when does the heretical actions of the Jewish leaders discount the existence of the NC to which many Jewish believers entered when they heard the Gospel and became Christian converts? Did the Sanhedrin's rejection of it disallow ordinary Jews' acceptance of it? Of course not.
You cannot force a subjective standard which claims nobody could partake of the NC since the Jewish leaders refused to partake. Do you know what a "saint" is?

Psalms 50:5 "Gather my saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice."
So, as I said, the blood of Jesus ratified the NC and anyone who followed the command to "take up his Cross" entered it.
Then you have to believe that all of us are also in the house of Israel and Judah stated in Hebrew 8:8.

Is that your claim?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
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So what? Both convey the SAME thought: that a just man in the OT was to live by faith in the same way the just man in the NT is to live: by faith.
No he had LIVE by HIS faith .
We live by the faith OF Jesus .
Things different are not the same .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
1,520
113
So, why dream up a set of dispensational rules for salvation? The issue in the beginning was a choice to worship God and avoid the Tree or worship Satan and eat of it...the last issue will be the exact same thing: are we going to worship God and receive the Seal, or will we worship Satan and receive the Mark of the Beast.

No secret rapture, not one set of rules for God's people throughout the centuries, but a special set for those living in the "last seven years of tribulation" -- mainly because Peter says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, the Earth will not be able to sustain life for seven seconds, let alone seven years.
You keep forgetting about the cross , resurrection, giving of the Holy Spirit thing . You seem to just see this as a minor thing . That ALL it that happened some people have some 'enablement ' to do a task . You don't understand what happened.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
1,520
113
You do not UNDERSTAND LORSHIP SALVATION at all. You only understand what some false prophet has said it was.

I was BORN AGAIN in a LORDSHIP SALVATION CHURCH, and Dr. John MacArthur was my main disciple. AND you the stuff you have been spewing is TOTALLY FALSE. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Calvinism.
I believe a person can be saved in spite of many false surroundings . Also some people believe in Communism. They believe its positive . Some people believe its negative. I believe Lordship as described by John Mcarthur salvation is unbiblical.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
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113

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
1,520
113

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,986
4,075
113
I believe a person can be saved in spite of many false surroundings . Also some people believe in Communism. They believe its positive . Some people believe its negative. I believe Lordship as described by John Mcarthur salvation is unbiblical.

You do not even understand MacArthur's BIBLICAL Theology. IT IS 100% BIBLICAL. So you may want to go tute your horn elsewhere. I do not think anyone on this thread wants to hear it.

Okay, before you leave, I want you to recite what you think is MacArthur's Doctrine of LORDSHIP SALVATION, so we can all see, that you can embarass yourself on how little you know.

And I will Back it up with the TRUTH in articles published by Dr. John MacArthur. Fair enough ? ? ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,909
1,520
113
You do not even understand MacArthur's BIBLICAL Theology. IT IS 100% BIBLICAL. So you may want to go tute your horn elsewhere. I do not think anyone on this thread wants to hear it.

Okay, before you leave, I want you to recite what you think is MacArthur's Doctrine of LORDSHIP SALVATION, so we can all see, that you can embarass yourself on how little you know.

And I will Back it up with the TRUTH in articles published by Dr. John MacArthur. Fair enough ? ? ?
I've done plenty of Discussions on here and engaged on how Calvinism is a false system . On all 5 points . The rot of its 'perseverance of the saints, no matter how its dressed up and couched in 'virtue signalling 'is essentially insecurity for the believer. John Piper does a great Job of explaining . This is the main area I pulled away from reformed theology. Because I looked into the P . the T U L I next . There's no gospel in Calvinism ( good news ) Do you believe you have to endure to the end to be saved ?
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,664
16,458
113
Ok.

I read the following

https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/20...ation-vv-easy-believism-vv-reformed-theology/

Does it sum it up?

I resonate with the guilt bit.
Boy was I made to feel guilty by the church (aka the member's) who made me feel so guilty and worthless because I was struggling and as a result NOT PERFORMING OR DOING.

Those that did so assumed I wasn't saved because I stopped to church yet not one sort me out to find out why.

Yes I stopped going to church but never lost my faith in Jesus.
I had a ministry, got burned out asked for help when I stepped down and was refused because I was no longer giving out.

Even asked for help for my past experiences which was affecting my present.
Things like sexual abuse, being thrown out at 14 by my mum which led to the sexual abuse. Lot of hurt and pain, led to addictions and the list goes on.

What is most shocking was the following I was told "Bible says don't do so don't do it"

Really??

The second person who said along that line to me I lost the plot.
I said "If I could just stop then I wouldn't be asking you for help"
That was the polite version.

Very sad indeed that Christians shoot their wounded rather than tend to them.

They obviously have never read where God says "A bruised reed I will not break"

I lost my faith in the people of the church and not God.
I called out to God every day for deliverance and praise him in his time (about 15 years) he put me on the heart of a new leader of my church to seek me out.

He was/is an amazing man of God and he walked with me had through Jesus restored me.

If lordship slavation affects people like it did me then it is an abhorrent doctrine and a fatal heresy and they will answer for it and will probably have their works burned up.
Same thing led to my walk away from God for 5 years, lordship salvation can be cruel. God says he is our Abba father and we do not need to fear him because we have the spirit of adoption, we please him because we want to not because we have to. And we also know when we do not obey, he does discipline us but in love not in anger,
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,664
16,458
113
Hey brother good to see you, be careful talking to throughfaith, he is on the warpath and uses anything he can to fight his war, including slander, lies and misinformation. He also believes in dual gospels, that OT people were saved different then we were, he has a lot of odd doctrines, just be careful Bro, in my view he is just as bad as Phonyman