Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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I only read the first part, what I see is like many, nitpicking, trying to make a contradiction where there is not one. His first point was showing MacArthur say that no one teaches every christian will live a successful life

his counterpoint is showing MacArthur says we live holy lives

I can live a holy life and not be successful. God does not promise health and wealth. This is what I see, I would like to also see that quote put in context as many take things out of context because of what was said, in order to make them look bad and help the person using the quote out of context win an argument,

so always go to the source, I have learned when you read what someone else thinks another person believes. Most times they are wrong,
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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Same thing led to my walk away from God for 5 years, lordship salvation can be cruel. God says he is our Abba father and we do not need to fear him because we have the spirit of adoption, we please him because we want to not because we have to. And we also know when we do not obey, he does discipline us but in love not in anger,
“Since you were precious in My sight,
you have been honored,and I have loved you;Therefore I will give men for you,
and people for your life.”

Isaiah 43:4( KJV)
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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look at phoneman's posts.

that version of lordship salvation is very off-putting.

someone who knows the Bible sees that attitude, and runs away from it.
LOL They said the same thing about Jesus when He drove out the money changers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Christians" who claim to have a corner on the market of love can compassion are willing to tolerate every stripe and type of sin in the church, but the minute someone stands up and calls it by it's rightful name, that's when their horns, fangs, and claws come out.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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Yes its still Jesus, about Jesus , For Jesus from start to finish.
Yes, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, which is why He supposedly handed out different salvific standards and expectations to different "dispensations" throughout the ages, right?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Yes, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, which is why He supposedly handed out different salvific standards and expectations to different "dispensations" throughout the ages, right?
I think that God can do what he wants don't you? Isn't the scriptures our source of truth.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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Same thing led to my walk away from God for 5 years, lordship salvation can be cruel. God says he is our Abba father and we do not need to fear him because we have the spirit of adoption, we please him because we want to not because we have to. And we also know when we do not obey, he does discipline us but in love not in anger,
Too often, many Christians start out on the Path of the Just but soon wind up falling into the deadly ditch of Legalism - their attempts to overcome sin in their own strength are met with one failure after the next, until finally all hope is lost. God's commandments are found to be too grievous because their love of God is overshadowed by their love of sin.

In desperation, they claw their way out of the deadly ditch of Legalism only to immediately fall into the other deadly ditch of License. There, they find rest from the conflict between satanic temptation and Holy Spirit conviction in the form of a OSAS License to Sin, which allows them to continue doing the exact same thing for which the lost will suffer eternal consequences. Any attempts to arouse them to the danger they're in are seen by them as only "hate" and "judgment" towards them because their love of God is overshadowed by their love of sin.

It's likely your experience is no different than that described above. Why don't you purpose in your heart to walk the middle of the Path where Jesus is and obtain from His continuous, never-failing power to overcome temptation and habits?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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it is about salvation by grace through faith, then that salvation MUST be demonstrated by doing good works, abstaining from sin.
Question: Does an apple tree produce apples because it "MUST" or because it "IS"?
Answer:
"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2_3-4 KJV​

See what I did there? I showed you they are blinded by Satan who argue against the idea that good works are the evidence it has been obtained.
those are not bad things, but the main falsehood of lordship salvation is that if someone is not visibly walking out salvation, then they are not saved.
What, those who are working out rebellion against God somehow are?
it makes a cast system that some ( see phoneman777) stand in judgement over others - a noble concept that easily falls into a man-made religion.
I nor anyone else seeks to establish a "caste" system nor stand in judgment of others. We seek to awaken the masses of Christians who are trapped in the deadly ditch of License, thinking their OSAS License to Sin is a means by which to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. We want to turn their eyes away from human weakness and failure to the victory over temptation and habits Jesus guarantees to whosoever wants it.

The devil is not holding a gun to your head forcing you to sin, so stop preaching defeatism, put on the armor of God, get on the battlefield, and start fighting the good fight of faith for Jesus.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,928
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Too often, many Christians start out on the Path of the Just but soon wind up falling into the deadly ditch of Legalism - their attempts to overcome sin in their own strength are met with one failure after the next, until finally all hope is lost. God's commandments are found to be too grievous because their love of God is overshadowed by their love of sin.

In desperation, they claw their way out of the deadly ditch of Legalism only to immediately fall into the other deadly ditch of License. There, they find rest from the conflict between satanic temptation and Holy Spirit conviction in the form of a OSAS License to Sin, which allows them to continue doing the exact same thing for which the lost will suffer eternal consequences. Any attempts to arouse them to the danger they're in are seen by them as only "hate" and "judgment" towards them because their love of God is overshadowed by their love of sin.

It's likely your experience is no different than that described above. Why don't you purpose in your heart to walk the middle of the Path where Jesus is and obtain from His continuous, never-failing power to overcome temptation and habits?
This guy is about as worse as it gets. I never claimed it was sin that caused me to leave. It was not even part of it
why people still respond to him and throughfaith I can not fathom

Anyway just wanted to point out proof of what I said earlier. They take something said out of context without knowing what the person meant. Twist it. And then to to preach to them

All the while making a fool of themself
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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Then you have to believe that all of us are also in the house of Israel and Judah stated in Hebrew 8:8.

Is that your claim?
Doesn't Paul plainly identify who are the true Israelites by, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed..."?

It says, "...then are ye Abraham's seed..."

It does not say, "...are included among the rest of Abraham's seed who at the moment hate Christ..."

It says, "...then are ye Abraham's seed..." -- INFINITIVE, PRESENT TENSE.

From the very moment the heart of humanity was lifted up from total despair and filled with glorious hope upon hearing the words, "I will put enmity between the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed", those in Christ became then and are now heirs according to the promise, from Adam to the last sinner saved by grace, because "He saith not unto seeds, as of many, but of One. 'And to thy Seed, WHICH IS CHRIST.'" -- Genesis 3:15 KJV; Galatians 3:16 KJV
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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No he had LIVE by HIS faith .
We live by the faith OF Jesus .
Things different are not the same .
Are you attempting to make a false dichotomy between "his faith" in the OT and "the faith of Jesus" in the NT? Let's ask Paul:
Romans (KJV)

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Conclusion: the faith of Jesus is and always has been obtained and exercised by the believer as his own -- the just always lives by his faith, the faith of Jesus.

There is no Dispensationalism.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Are you attempting to make a false dichotomy between "his faith" in the OT and "the faith of Jesus" in the NT? Let's ask Paul:
Romans (KJV)

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Conclusion: the faith of Jesus is and always has been obtained and exercised by the believer as his own -- the just always lives by his faith, the faith of Jesus.

There is no Dispensationalism.
LIVE.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Are you attempting to make a false dichotomy between "his faith" in the OT and "the faith of Jesus" in the NT? Let's ask Paul:
Romans (KJV)

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Conclusion: the faith of Jesus is and always has been obtained and exercised by the believer as his own -- the just always lives by his faith, the faith of Jesus.

There is no Dispensationalism.
They were not living by the faith of Jesus in the OT .
But now .
Gal 2

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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Hey brother good to see you, be careful talking to throughfaith, he is on the warpath and uses anything he can to fight his war, including slander, lies and misinformation. He also believes in dual gospels, that OT people were saved different then we were, he has a lot of odd doctrines, just be careful Bro, in my view he is just as bad as Phonyman
It's cute the way you criticize the brother for using "slander" and then in the same breath say "Phonyman". C'mon, man, let's show the world how to be agreeable in disagreement, OK?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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They were not living by the faith of Jesus in the OT .
But now .
Gal 2

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Your verse has nothing to do with your premise.

OT people most certainly lived by the faith of Jesus, because Jesus is the God of the OT! Didn't you know that?

"For they drank of that spiritual Rock tha followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Your verse has nothing to do with your premise.

OT people most certainly lived by the faith of Jesus, because Jesus is the God of the OT! Didn't you know that?

"For they drank of that spiritual Rock tha followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV.
Isn't it great to look back with a full bible..The error is assuming stuff from this vantage.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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Your verse has nothing to do with your premise.

OT people most certainly lived by the faith of Jesus, because Jesus is the God of the OT! Didn't you know that?

"For they drank of that spiritual Rock tha followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV.
They longed to know and understand the things that have now been revealed. Don't assume this back onto the O T as if it was all revealed and understood.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
2,229
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This guy is about as worse as it gets. I never claimed it was sin that caused me to leave. It was not even part of it
why people still respond to him and throughfaith I can not fathom Anyway just wanted to point out proof of what I said earlier. They take something said out of context without knowing what the person meant. Twist it. And then to to preach to them All the while making a fool of themself
No one accused you of claiming sin is what drove you away from God...what I said was it's likely sin (subconsciously) drove you away from God, and I stand by that: Ever heard of the popular Christian axiom, "The Bible will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from the Bible"?

Let's dispense with all the limbic system emotionalism and leave the reading comprehension to the frontal lobe, OK?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Question: Does an apple tree produce apples because it "MUST" or because it "IS"?
Answer:
"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2_3-4 KJV​

See what I did there? I showed you they are blinded by Satan who argue against the idea that good works are the evidence it has been obtained.
What, those who are working out rebellion against God somehow are?
I nor anyone else seeks to establish a "caste" system nor stand in judgment of others. We seek to awaken the masses of Christians who are trapped in the deadly ditch of License, thinking their OSAS License to Sin is a means by which to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. We want to turn their eyes away from human weakness and failure to the victory over temptation and habits Jesus guarantees to whosoever wants it.

The devil is not holding a gun to your head forcing you to sin, so stop preaching defeatism, put on the armor of God, get on the battlefield, and start fighting the good fight of faith for Jesus.

i will answer this with a question-

i have a large pecan tree, it produced a large amount of pecans last year.

if it does not produce any ( or not many ) this year, is it still a pecan tree?
and, if it does not produce much, or any at all next year, should i declare it non-bearing and cut it down?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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They longed to know and understand the things that have now been revealed. Don't assume this back onto the O T as if it was all revealed and understood.
Just because they didn't fully understand the details of how God was going to bring the Plan of Salvation to fruition doesn't mean they were not able to understand the basic premise of it and avail themselves to it, right or wrong?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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i will answer this with a question-

i have a large pecan tree, it produced a large amount of pecans last year.

if it does not produce any ( or not many ) this year, is it still a pecan tree?
and, if it does not produce much, or any at all next year, should i declare it non-bearing and cut it down?
If the pecan tree stops producing, should that be cause for concern as to whether the tree is dying or dead, or should we look at the tag that says "Pecan tree" and confidently go on about our way --- in the same way a person who practices deliberate, habitual, known sin periodically looks at his OSAS License to Sin and confidently goes on about his way?

BTW, you avoided the issue: you said we claim Christians "MUST" do good works as evidence for salvation - an by one word you unfairly comingled "compulsion" with our position - and I corrected you by stating our position is that Christians naturally produce good works as evidence they are saved just as an apple tree produces apples -- by force of nature, not compulsion.

This is a prime example of how the lie can be made to so closely resemble the truth so that it is almost indistinguishable. Praise God, He gives those who love the truth the ability to discern between the two.