Obedience, Oh No!

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S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#21
So many times I have posted the following, but the new formatted website has not had it.

Jesus has fulfilled the law but has not destroyed it.

We many no longer make sacrifices for sins of animals, for there is now but One, Jesus Christ, those laws are no longer.

We no longer need the Levitical laws of priesthood, for Jesus Christ is our High Priest and we are made priests by His Blood. No laws of Priesthood.

The laws of governing Israel are no longer in state because the Israel of God is not yet with us, and the former has been dissolved, there is not government on this earth headed by God.

The Temple laws and rituals are now impossible for we are the living stones of the Temple with Jesus Christ as the Head and the Cornerstone.. He will come back to rebuild His Temple but until then we are scattered awaiting to be gathered together in New Jerusalem.

All the law that falls under the two greet laws are yet with us, though we know them by our new man, for we are new creatures in Christ.

If anyone with the conscience given by Jesus Christ studies the written laws it is obvious which are yet in effect. No man need draw them all out for you.

Some of the laws are prophecy, while all are a guide to morality in the sight of our Father.

No one is saved by obedience, but they can be lost by deliberate disobedience for that is the definition of sin.

God bless all who are in Jesus Christ,Yeshua.
Here is the fallacy in your thinking.

The Law is the Law. You either keep the Law or you do not. There is no such think as picking and choosing what part you will keep and what part you will not keep. And you have never kept the Law. No may other than Jesus has ever kept the Law.

You are doing exactly what the Pharisees were doing at the time of Christ.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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#22
Christ fulfilled the law on our behalf. Paul said that the law was our Tutor to lead us to Christ. If you are born again the spirit of Christ resides in you forever We are Sons of God and are being formed into his likeness. This is the heart of the great mystery in the Gospel given to Paul that could only be revealed after Pentecost.
So you believe the "great Mystery" is that Jesus died so we wouldn't have to walk in His Commandments? Why would the Word which became Flesh need to write His Laws on our hearts if He kept His Fathers Commandments for us?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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516
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#23
Here is the fallacy in your thinking.

The Law is the Law. You either keep the Law or you do not. There is no such think as picking and choosing what part you will keep and what part you will not keep. And you have never kept the Law. No may other than Jesus has ever kept the Law.

You are doing exactly what the Pharisees were doing at the time of Christ.
Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

This is what Jesus and Stephen had to say about the Pharisees. I'm not sure how you can make the case that JJ is doing the same thing as they are.

And for those who strive to honor God with obedience, I have not found one place in the entire Bible where God rebuked or discouraged such a person for this self denying endeavor. Actually just the opposite.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

It might be prudent to note that Zechariahs and Abraham knew Jesus when He came, but Saul and the Pharisees didn't. Is it just a coincidence that the Word of God exalted them both for their obedience?

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It seems that God's view of those who strive to honor Him with obedience is the same in the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the Bible as the scriptures confirm.

In my opinion JJ has also seen this truth. And obviously the Pharisees did not.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#24
Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

This is what Jesus and Stephen had to say about the Pharisees. I'm not sure how you can make the case that JJ is doing the same thing as they are.

And for those who strive to honor God with obedience, I have not found one place in the entire Bible where God rebuked or discouraged such a person for this self denying endeavor. Actually just the opposite.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

It might be prudent to note that Zechariahs and Abraham knew Jesus when He came, but Saul and the Pharisees didn't. Is it just a coincidence that the Word of God exalted them both for their obedience?

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It seems that God's view of those who strive to honor Him with obedience is the same in the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the Bible as the scriptures confirm.

In my opinion JJ has also seen this truth. And obviously the Pharisees did not.
What I see in JJ's post and all others who constantly speak of keeping the Law, is not that we are to strive to keep the Law, but that it is required. But they are very quick to eliminate those parts that they can not keep.
As I stated before, the Law is the Law and you either keep every part or you violate the Law.
To state as JJ did that some parts are no longer required is nothing more than doing as the Pharisees did.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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#25
What I see in JJ's post and all others who constantly speak of keeping the Law, is not that we are to strive to keep the Law, but that it is required. But they are very quick to eliminate those parts that they can not keep.
As I stated before, the Law is the Law and you either keep every part or you violate the Law.
To state as JJ did that some parts are no longer required is nothing more than doing as the Pharisees did.
Are there not parts of God's Law that His People are still required to follow, according to the Word which became Flesh?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#26
Are there not parts of God's Law that His People are still required to follow, according to the Word which became Flesh?
To violate one part, any part of the Law is to violate the Law. What is so difficult to understand about that fact.
To pick and choose or change, is not allowed. That is what the Pharisees were doing.

We are to strive to keep the commandments of Christ, not the Law of Moses.
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,440
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#27
It's not that the law of sacrifice for sin was taken away, that law still stands today. However, physical animals (which never atoned for sin anyways, but only postponed sin till the cross)
Here is the fallacy in your thinking.

The Law is the Law. You either keep the Law or you do not. There is no such think as picking and choosing what part you will keep and what part you will not keep. And you have never kept the Law. No may other than Jesus has ever kept the Law.

You are doing exactly what the Pharisees were doing at the time of Christ.
amen.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#28
James was teaching the spirit because he said we will be judged by the law of liberty. He used the law as a means of admonishment, which is a perfectly acceptable and lawful use of the law.
If James were to teach the letter of the law how would he do that?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,314
3,876
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#30
Here is the fallacy in your thinking.

The Law is the Law. You either keep the Law or you do not. There is no such think as picking and choosing what part you will keep and what part you will not keep. And you have never kept the Law. No may other than Jesus has ever kept the Law.

You are doing exactly what the Pharisees were doing at the time of Christ.
Here is the true Light. Jesus Christ teaches the law with mercy, justice and faith. He has not abolished the law, from His Lips, He is fulfilling the law.

Learn from Jesus Christ and not from the majority, for narrow is ssthe gate and few enter.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#31
I have no idea what you're asking.
Let's go back to this post:
I would even say that those who place Moses at the same level as Jesus, the letter at the same level as the spirit, are lawless.
How does one place the letter of the law of Moses at the same level as Jesus and the Spirit? How do we know when a law, for example 'love your neighbor as yourself' represents lawlessness (see your post above) and when that same law represents the Spirit?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#32
To violate one part, any part of the Law is to violate the Law. What is so difficult to understand about that fact.
To pick and choose or change, is not allowed. That is what the Pharisees were doing.

We are to strive to keep the commandments of Christ, not the Law of Moses.
Which one are we to keep?

'Love your neighbor as yourself' - Law of Moses

or

'Love your neighbor as yourself' - Law of Christ


How do we know which one we're keeping?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#33
What I see in JJ's post and all others who constantly speak of keeping the Law, is not that we are to strive to keep the Law, but that it is required.
Don't you believe that 'do not murder' is required to be kept?


But they are very quick to eliminate those parts that they can not keep.
It is the church at large that is guilty of this charge, not our Messianic brethren.

The argument is constantly being made by the church that no one can keep the law, therefore, God did away with it so we do not have to keep the law anymore in this New Covenant, except for 'love your neighbor as yourself'.


As I stated before, the Law is the Law and you either keep every part or you violate the Law.
Then the church is in violation of the law since it has decided that the only part of the law it has to keep is 'love your neighbor as yourself'.



To state as JJ did that some parts are no longer required is nothing more than doing as the Pharisees did.
The laws governing the sacrifice of animals for the forgiveness of sin are no longer required. This is exactly what the church believes. So is the church being like the Pharisees?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,314
3,876
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#34
What I see in JJ's post and all others who constantly speak of keeping the Law, is not that we are to strive to keep the Law, but that it is required. But they are very quick to eliminate those parts that they can not keep.
As I stated before, the Law is the Law and you either keep every part or you violate the Law.
To state as JJ did that some parts are no longer required is nothing more than doing as the Pharisees did.

It is obvious you are not reading my posting, or simply not understanding tht the bottom line is to learn obedience from Jesus Christ as He teaches us.

You have been very quick though, to through a lot of people together in the same bag to suit your liking.

Had you understood my posts you would know I have said repeatedly we are saved by grace never by our own efforts. YOu have not read my posts fully it seems

Now you cannot gain anything by obeying God only, but you certainly can lose everything by practicing disobedience.......learn the difference.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#35
Let's go back to this post:
How does one place the letter of the law of Moses at the same level as Jesus and the Spirit? How do we know when a law, for example 'love your neighbor as yourself' represents lawlessness (see your post above) and when that same law represents the Spirit?
When I said the letter I was referring to the whole law, not just one individual command as you did. The part that you mentioned happens to be the law of Christ, so it is not applicable to what I said because it is not the whole law of Moses. Israelites could have obeyed that command perfectly and still been liable to other parts of the law of Moses (e.g., circumcision, festival and sabbath observance, etc.). We are free from those constraints. So to make the letter on par with the spirit is to nullify the law of liberty and bring us into bondage.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#36
Don't you believe that 'do not murder' is required to be kept?
If one follows Christ's law - do not hate - then one will fulfill the righteousness demanded by "do not murder". On the other hand, if one follows "do not murder", yet hates in his heart, he has not done the righteousness required by Christ. So the effectual law is "do not hate".
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#37
The law is a prophesy; prophesies are fulfilled, not kept.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#39
Then the church is in violation of the law since it has decided that the only part of the law it has to keep is 'love your neighbor as yourself'.
But they are not in violation of Christ's law, which is the law they will be judged by.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#40
The law is a prophesy; prophesies are fulfilled, not kept.

Have you not understood when it is written the Law and the Prophets point to Jesus Christ?

Were anyi to learn from Jesus Christ directly they would know not to teach disobedience at any level for disobedience to God is the same as idolatry....