Obedience, Oh No!

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,248
567
113
#61
Here is the true Light. Jesus Christ teaches the law with mercy, justice and faith. He has not abolished the law, from His Lips, He is fulfilling the law.

Learn from Jesus Christ and not from the majority, for narrow is ssthe gate and few enter.
After Jesus fulfill the law, we not under ot law anymore, that is why we not do animal sacrifice anymore, no observe Saturday sabbath etc, yes we have to obey NT.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,104
337
83
#62
Obedience, Oh Yes! And I rarely use exclamation points.

These people with their faith alone, and God chose them to be saved without their choice has made a relaxed Christianity for them.

2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.

And also has made many people say those hypocrites as they hold unto sin, and act somewhat like the world, thinking they are alright with God, for anybody that says they cannot abstain from sin, and they sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, there is something wrong.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If they say they cannot abstain from sin then they will hold unto sin thinking they are right with God, and when they do the sin they enjoy the sin, for if they did not enjoy the sin they would not do it, and if they enjoy it then they did it on purpose.

If someone holds unto sin the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We have to have obedience to be right with God, for how can a person be disobedient and be right with God, for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, for you are exalting your own ways above that of God.

Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Psa 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children.

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Act 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

If a person truly fears the LORD they will depart from iniquity, for fear of the punishment they will have if they do not depart from sin.

Some people do not try to beat certain sins but they do them on purpose and think they are right with God, for they took the judgment of God away concerning everybody giving up sins to be right with God, who confess Christ, but that is only in their own mind.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and only a person led of the Spirit is saved, and if led of the Spirit they would abstain from sin, then why do they sin and think it does not affect their relationship with God, and how are they led of the Spirit when they sin, for they do not want to think there can even be a microsecond that they can be wrong in God's eyes, but if they sin they are not led of the Spirit.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

It is how we think and act that define who we are, not we are clean even when we sin if we confess Christ, and if they sin then that is what is in their heart then how are they clean.

We grow in Christ but it does not mean it takes us 10 years to understand what sin is as if we do not have understanding that certain things are wrong, which when a person confesses Christ, and repents of their sins, they should already have an understanding of what God considers sin, and even creation testifies to those who do not know the word of God what sin is so how can a person that confesses Christ not understand.

There is no excuse for sin, and we grow in Christ which means we become more like Him, which does not mean we do not know what sin is for the world will be judged on their sins, so they know what sin is, but it means we become more Christlike in our ability to get rid of those sins, and stop doing them like we did in their world.

Without obedience we cannot be saved, and without love we cannot be saved, which many also miss the mark on that going by their wants, which Paul, James, and John, all spoke about that saying they are not right with God, and Paul said to withdraw yourselves from people that preach God blesses us with our wants, which God said that some people pray amiss to heap it unto their lusts.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,104
337
83
#63
Continued,

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Old Testament, New Testament, there is no difference, for we still have to obey, and to love, like God gave Israel the Old Covenant, and they had no choice but to obey it, the whole nation, and God commands all people to repent, which the world has no choice but to obey it.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We are saved by faith alone, and not by works, when we confess Christ, for that is all we can do being in the flesh, but when we are saved then Christ did His job(although He will work with us after we are saved), and then the responsibility falls on us for God will not twist our arm to do what is right, and when we receive the Spirit we can be obedient, and loving, if we hate sin, and do not want sin.

Only those led of the Spirit are not under the law, for they hate sin, and do not want sin, and to be obedient, and loving, and their sins are forgiven, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution, for they are not breaking the law.

But a person that is disobedient, and sins thinking it does not affect their relationship with God, is under the law for they are not led of the Spirit, and the law can touch them for prosecution.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,155
3,083
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#64
After Jesus fulfill the law, we not under ot law anymore, that is why we not do animal sacrifice anymore, no observe Saturday sabbath etc, yes we have to obey NT.
Please read and understand exactly what Jesus teaches us all about how He has not abolished the law but He has fulfilled it. Learn what the latter means.

Then read how He declares the law still in effect and learn how He teache it is to be applied and approached.

I confess I am saved only by Jesus Christ by His precious Blood and nothing else.

I also confess I know He would that I obey Him and not a popular misinterpretation of the majority.........
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,155
3,083
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#65
Are you assuming someone here has not been born again?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#66
Don't kid yourself. They don't obey the law either.
They know that. Like you, Messianic believers are fully aware that the forgiveness of Christ makes up for any and all failures to fulfill the law. The thing in question here is what parts of the law of Moses remain to be fulfilled by believers?

What parts of the law can we willingly decide to not keep? And of those we willing decide to not keep, for which will we be condemned to hell for not keeping?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,248
567
113
#68
Please read and understand exactly what Jesus teaches us all about how He has not abolished the law but He has fulfilled it. Learn what the latter means.

Then read how He declares the law still in effect and learn how He teache it is to be applied and approached.

I confess I am saved only by Jesus Christ by His precious Blood and nothing else.

I also confess I know He would that I obey Him and not a popular misinterpretation of the majority.........
Matt 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

We must interprate bible use bible.

What is not abolish the law in that verse mean?

It was animal sacrifice, not anymore, so not abolish do not mean not change

What is fulfill in that verse mean

Verse 21, it was do not kill, killer must face judgement.

After fulfill, it more spiritual sense, who ever angry with his brother, not physically kill, will face judgement.

So physical kill before fulfill equal to angry with no reason.

Before fulfillment Saturday sabbath/rest

After fulfillment, rest is by come to Jesus.


Matthew 11:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#70
They know that. Like you, Messianic believers are fully aware that the forgiveness of Christ makes up for any and all failures to fulfill the law. The thing in question here is what parts of the law of Moses remain to be fulfilled by believers?

What parts of the law can we willingly decide to not keep? And of those we willing decide to not keep, for which will we be condemned to hell for not keeping?
We won't be judged by the law of Moses, so apart from instructional purposes it is irrelevant.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
515
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#72
If you believe that one must keep the Law as given to Israel through Moses,, yes.
Both are sin and breaking the Law.
But we are no longer required to keep the Law as given to Israel.
Jesus fulfilled the Law.
We are to follow His commandments.
Thank you for your honesty. For me it's not about this law or that law. It's about "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

I would argue, in Love of the Brethren, that you are omitting a great promise given to us by the Word which became Flesh. And I would hope that you might consider all the warnings about religion men and their doctrines and consider the Word's of His great Promise.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,(Word which became Flesh) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Before "Those days" how were we to receive God's Laws? Was it not to be administered by the Levite Priests?

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

It seems the Word is promising of a time when we will no longer need to rely on the Levitical Priesthood to "receive God's Laws".

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Before "Those Days" how were sin's atoned for? Was it not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law"?

Heb. 9:
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

So how is it a sin in your religion to believe that Jesus is now our High Priest and we are no longer required to bring goats to the Levite?

Would it not be a sin to bring a goat to the Levite now that the Promise of Jesus regarding the New Covenant has been fulfilled?

If I relied on these "works of the Law" for remission of sins, would I not be making the sacrifice of the Christ of none affect?
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,328
943
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#73
Thank you for your honesty.

So how is it a sin in your religion to believe that Jesus is now our High Priest and we are no longer required to bring goats to the Levite?

Would it not be a sin to bring a goat to the Levite now that the Promise of Jesus regarding the New Covenant has been fulfilled?

If I relied on these "works of the Law" for remission of sins, would I not be making the sacrifice of the Christ of none affect?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,155
3,083
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#74
I am reading some very off-the-wall notions in this thread from folks who obviously are not students of the Master, Jesus Christ....
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#75
We won't be judged by the law of Moses, so apart from instructional purposes it is irrelevant.
James says we are:

"8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"-James 2:8-14


Even by simply committing the sin of favoritism (Leviticus 19:15) James says I am convicted "by the law" as a transgressor. He even makes the point about the royal law being the law "according to the Scripture" (Leviticus 19:18). How is that not being judged by the law of Moses?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#76
I am reading some very off-the-wall notions in this thread from folks who obviously are not students of the Master, Jesus Christ....
They are indoctrinated victims of the early Catholic Church leaders who literally outlawed the Law and made their own.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,155
3,083
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#77
They are indoctrinated victims of the early Catholic Church leaders who literally outlawed the Law and made their own.
It would be quite incredible had not our Savior warned us well in advance how this would be, almost since the moment He ascended to the Right Hand of Power, perhaps even before.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,328
943
113
#78
Thank you for your honesty.

So how is it a sin in your religion to believe that Jesus is now our High Priest and we are no longer required to bring goats to the Levite?

Would it not be a sin to bring a goat to the Levite now that the Promise of Jesus regarding the New Covenant has been fulfilled?

If I relied on these "works of the Law" for remission of sins, would I not be making the sacrifice of the Christ of none affect?
I have no idea how you come to the that conclusion by what I have posted.
I am not the one pushing the keeping of the Law. I am the one objecting to such heresy.
Jesus is our High Priest. We are to answer only to Him. We are not under any obligation to keep the Law given to Israel. We are to keep the commands of Jesus.
To rely on the "works of the Law" would indeed make the sacrifice of Christ of non effect.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#79
It would be quite incredible had not our Savior warned us well in advance how this would be, almost since the moment He ascended to the Right Hand of Power, perhaps even before.
Every Christian needs to know the history of the Catholic Church and what they did to the faith. It's now coming out in to the open how the leadership of the Catholic Church are Luciferians. As Protestants we don't recognize them as God ordained anyway, but it's waaaaaay worse than what we thought. Worship of Chemosh/Molech is alive and well to this very day. Do your homework, folks.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#80
We won't be judged by the law of Moses, so apart from instructional purposes it is irrelevant.
If the law is instructional how can it be irrelevant. If the law ever was a tudor/teacher then is still is. As Pauls says:

Rom. 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Granted we will never be able to keep the law, that is why we have grace. If the law defines sin, is still gives us a direction. If anyone on this forum could keep the two great commandments perfectly, then they would not have to do the law.

Paul goes on in Romans:

Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

We worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24). Keeping the commandments is the least of our service, which we will not do perfectly. Thank God that Jesus made that unnecessary.

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