Obedience, Oh No!

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Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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So many times I have posted the following, but the new formatted website has not had it.

Jesus has fulfilled the law but has not destroyed it.

We many no longer make sacrifices for sins of animals, for there is now but One, Jesus Christ, those laws are no longer.

We no longer need the Levitical laws of priesthood, for Jesus Christ is our High Priest and we are made priests by His Blood. No laws of Priesthood.

The laws of governing Israel are no longer in state because the Israel of God is not yet with us, and the former has been dissolved, there is not government on this earth headed by God.

The Temple laws and rituals are now impossible for we are the living stones of the Temple with Jesus Christ as the Head and the Cornerstone.. He will come back to rebuild His Temple but until then we are scattered awaiting to be gathered together in New Jerusalem.

All the law that falls under the two greet laws are yet with us, though we know them by our new man, for we are new creatures in Christ.

If anyone with the conscience given by Jesus Christ studies the written laws it is obvious which are yet in effect. No man need draw them all out for you.

Some of the laws are prophecy, while all are a guide to morality in the sight of our Father.

No one is saved by obedience, but they can be lost by deliberate disobedience for that is the definition of sin.

God bless all who are in Jesus Christ,Yeshua.

We are saved by obedience. It is the doers of the law that are justified. There is no law against love. Those who love obey the law...and are justified.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
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I have no idea what you're trying to say. There seems to be an epidemic of people trying to make points by asking questions. It rarely works.

OK I'll say it this way for you... Paul stressed love above all else. (even faith). Jesus stressed love above all else. The OT stressed love above all else! (NOW here comes the question) Do you understand?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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We are saved by obedience. It is the doers of the law that are justified. There is no law against love. Those who love obey the law...and are justified.
Paul was speaking rhetorically regarding those who were under the law of Moses and gloried in it to make the point that the law was only beneficial to them if they actually did the law. There is no law against love and faith because that is Christ's law that supersedes and subsumes the law of Moses.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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OK I'll say it this way for you... Paul stressed love above all else. (even faith). Jesus stressed love above all else. The OT stressed love above all else! (NOW here comes the question) Do you understand?
Like I said, I think trying to make points by asking questions is ineffective and counterproductive. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. I'm not a mind reader.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
Paul was speaking rhetorically regarding those who were under the law of Moses and gloried in it to make the point that the law was only beneficial to them if they actually did the law. There is no law against love and faith because that is Christ's law that supersedes and subsumes the law of Moses.

Actually the only NEW commandment was to love as Jesus loved (sacrificially). Otherwise ALL of the laws about love are from the OT.

You may be too disrespectful of the bible. The early Christians had only the OT and they did rather well. Look at today...we have a NT that almost no one understands properly and the church condition...terrible.

I think we need to go back to the OT and get the questions right. THEN we can go to the NT and find the answers.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
Like I said, I think trying to make points by asking questions is ineffective and counterproductive. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. I'm not a mind reader.
...but you do read, right? (oops another question)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Actually the only NEW commandment was to love as Jesus loved (sacrificially). Otherwise ALL of the laws about love are from the OT.

You may be too disrespectful of the bible. The early Christians had only the OT and they did rather well. Look at today...we have a NT that almost no one understands properly and the church condition...terrible.

I think we need to go back to the OT and get the questions right. THEN we can go to the NT and find the answers.
That's a myth that they only had the OT. They had the teachings of Christ and his apostles. We have a more complete witness, but they all had virtually everything that Christ and the 12 apostles taught, and Paul's teachings to some extent. Things were done orally to a large degree then.
 
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...but you do read, right? (oops another question)
You're trying to protect a sense of superiority by not being forthright. Perhaps that's because you don't really have what you think you have ( and thereby can't articulate it), or you are afraid that it won't stand up against my witness (thereby threatening your sense of exalted position).
 
Dec 9, 2011
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The works of God is not only salvation...that is glory. Jesus said if you would see life obey the commandments. READ the bible.
you are doing exactly what you were accusing me of.
JESUS did not say any extra words.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
If James is saying what you are claiming, than he and Paul contradict each other.
That's exactly how we know James is NOT saying the same thing Paul is about justification.

James is NOT saying a man is justified (MADE righteous) by works. He is saying a man is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by works. That means if you can't show yourself to have the righteousness of Christ by what you do you probably don't have the righteousness of Christ you think you do. That's not a works gospel. But I know that is the only way you can see it as being.

You say a person does not have to have works to be saved. But you will be lost when Jesus comes back if you do not have works to accompany your faith when Jesus comes back because faith in Christ sets you free from the bondage of sin. If you aren't set free from the bondage of sin you don't have the righteousness of Christ through faith that you think you do. Don't change the scriptures. Instead, get your life right.



Paul said, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 2:16)
That's not the same use of 'justification' that James is using. No comparison possible that somehow nullifies what James said.

You can't apply Paul's use of 'justification' to James' use of 'justification'. You probably did not know this, but 'justification' has more than one definition (check it for yourself). James is using one definition, Paul is using another. That is what is causing people in the church to reject outright what James is saying. And the leadership is helping them do that.



And, of course: "By grace we are saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
By virtue of receiving the free gift you are separated from the power of the flesh. That's why works of righteousness are required of the one who has the free gift. But you can only see that as meaning the requirement for works means we earn a declaration of right standing with God.

But I know all this is meaningless to you because you apparently came to Christ to only get saved, not to be changed. That's why it is futile to try and change people who insist they do not have to have works to be saved. They did not come to Christ to be delievered from sin. They came to Christ for the 'get out of jail' free card. It's futile to teach the truth to them.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Paul said he would show us a better way...love. Is Paul under the old covenant in your view?
Paul was talking about what we should do AFTER SALVATION.
+++
How can anyone love perfectly unless GOD first loves them.Seems like you are trying to make fleshly things, spiritual.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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Paul was talking about what we should do AFTER SALVATION.
+++
How can anyone love perfectly unless GOD first loves them.Seems like you are trying to make fleshly things, spiritual.
What do you mean by "after salvation"? Are you still alive on Earth? If so, then you are still in the PROCESS of being saved. Life is a race. If we draw back we will be rejected. If we don't do the will of God...we will be rejected. But those who endure to the end shall be saved. THAT'S what the bible says.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! (yes this is actually in the bible)

PS. READ the bible. ;)
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Those who try to be justified in GOD's sight by keeping the law of Moses are in constant violation of the law and living in continual sin.
Which is completely inappicable in this thread.

Messianic believers don't defend the law as the way to be justified righteous before God. They defend it the same way the few of us left in the church defend 'do not murder' as the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith. See the difference between that and what you said?
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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Those who try to be justified in GOD's sight by keeping the law of Moses are in constant violation of the law and living in continual sin.

Are you following Judaism? What does the law of Moses have to do with anything? Do you realize that Paul was referring to outward circumcision? THAT's what keeping the law is about...not obedience to God.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I have no idea what you're trying to say. There seems to be an epidemic of people trying to make points by asking questions. It rarely works.
If you understand the question it works very nicely. It's the technique Jesus used. But, yes, if you don't understand the question it won't do anything.

The point is, if Paul talked about the better way of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (which he did), does that mean he was under the old covenant? It has to mean that according to what people are saying in this thread about what they believe about the law, but of course they will contradict their own argument and say he was not. That's the point.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Not they who say Lord Lord..I trust you I trust you....vain talkers who won't lift a finger to obey the Lord.

Mat. 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Nope, no way.........I'm being told that I do not have to do the will of the Father to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was wrong about this one.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
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The first believers in Jesus were all Jewish. As Gentile believers came into the fold there was a question whether these should first convert to Judaism (since Jesus was Jewish). Paul defended the new converts as being in Christ and therefore under grace. No need to be under the Jewish law. No need to become Jews. THAT is the context of not being under the law. We do not first become Jews. No need to be outwardly circumcised if we are circumcised inwardly.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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If you understand the question it works very nicely. It's the technique Jesus used. But, yes, if you don't understand the question it won't do anything.

The point is, if Paul talked about the better way of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (which he did), does that mean he was under the old covenant? It has to mean that according to what people are saying in this thread about what they believe about the law, but of course they will contradict their own argument and say he was not. That's the point.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not the law of Moses; it is one commandment in that body of law. Christ summarized the entire law in that one command and made it his law. Again, that command is not the law of Moses.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The first believers in Jesus were all Jewish. As Gentile believers came into the fold there was a question whether these should first convert to Judaism (since Jesus was Jewish). Paul defended the new converts as being in Christ and therefore under grace. No need to be under the Jewish law. No need to become Jews. THAT is the context of not being under the law. We do not first become Jews. No need to be outwardly circumcised if we are circumcised inwardly.
That's not the entire picture. With circumcision came the responsibility to live under and do the law of Moses. That is the yoke that Peter said in the council Israel was unable to bear.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Nope, no way.........I'm being told that I do not have to do the will of the Father to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was wrong about this one.
That's certainly not what I'm saying. I'm simply (apparently) disagreeing with your understanding of how that's done.