Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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S
1. Nobody is chosen...God knows who will choose him based on his foreknowledge. Romans 8:29
2. Christ died for sin and all have sinned. Romans 3:23 & 6:10
3. Yes, based on His foreknowledge.
4. God's foreknowledge does not dictate who will be saved or that he will save them. Man choses. Romans 8:29
5. Plus he is not losing your salvation it is walking away from it knowingly because you no longer believe. Hebrews 6:4-6
2. Christ died for sin and all have sinned. Romans 3:23 & 6:10
3. Yes, based on His foreknowledge.
4. God's foreknowledge does not dictate who will be saved or that he will save them. Man choses. Romans 8:29
5. Plus he is not losing your salvation it is walking away from it knowingly because you no longer believe. Hebrews 6:4-6
E
1. we are chosen..
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
2. Yes, he died for all. Thus the offer of salvation is to all.
3. Yes, He knew who would recieve him and who would not. and chose to save4 us based on that knowledge
4. God foreknowledge is based on mans free will choice.. It is what he forknew. And yes, he chose to save them before time began based on that knowledge.
5. God knew they would walk away before he saved them, He would not save them based on that fact. God is not mocked.
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
2. Yes, he died for all. Thus the offer of salvation is to all.
3. Yes, He knew who would recieve him and who would not. and chose to save4 us based on that knowledge
4. God foreknowledge is based on mans free will choice.. It is what he forknew. And yes, he chose to save them before time began based on that knowledge.
5. God knew they would walk away before he saved them, He would not save them based on that fact. God is not mocked.
S
1. Paul is talking about him and his co-workers in the first 12 verses of Ephesians 1. It was a synopsis to put into context the gospel and what they were preaching and it is not until verse 13 that Paul includes the Ephesian believers as being part of those who were chosen IN CHRIST. They were not chosen to be saved but were chosen 'in Christ' to be part of the work of spreading the gospel.
2. Not what the scriptures say and I gave you the appropriate scripture. This is reiterated in 1st Peter 3:18.
3. Not what the scriptures say as I've already pointed out. Romans 8:29. Ignoring scripture won't help you prove your point.
4. Not what the scripture says. God's foreknowledge did not determine who would be saved God's foreknowledge determined who he would predestined to become conformed to the image of his son. Again read Romans 8:28-30
5. That is right, God is not mocked and men reap what they sow, however Galatians 6 has nothing to do with what we're discussing you here. God knows everything and his omniscient is not the issue here. Our free will always determines where we go in life and the New Testament in several places shows that weekend confess Christ as Savior and then down the road deny him and walk away just as Judas did and just as many have done since.
2. Not what the scriptures say and I gave you the appropriate scripture. This is reiterated in 1st Peter 3:18.
3. Not what the scriptures say as I've already pointed out. Romans 8:29. Ignoring scripture won't help you prove your point.
4. Not what the scripture says. God's foreknowledge did not determine who would be saved God's foreknowledge determined who he would predestined to become conformed to the image of his son. Again read Romans 8:28-30
5. That is right, God is not mocked and men reap what they sow, however Galatians 6 has nothing to do with what we're discussing you here. God knows everything and his omniscient is not the issue here. Our free will always determines where we go in life and the New Testament in several places shows that weekend confess Christ as Savior and then down the road deny him and walk away just as Judas did and just as many have done since.
S
Well then if you think that you're not understanding what the word elect means because it only applies to believers. In most places in the New Testament 'elect' refers to the children of Israel and in the few places that it is used in context with believers, it connotes a status of being a believer, which is not what you think election in Modern English means.
E
Paul said in eph 1: 13 14 that all who do this recieves all those spiritual blessing in christ.
Judas was never saved, He walked away because he was not saved. Please read 1 john 2
You can not walk away from God., God said he would never let you go., no matter where you go, he is there too.
see psalms 139..
There are so many mysteries that we do not understand in this life, why will one person turn to God and another will not? I do not believe in predestination, however I had several experiences with God before I ever got saved. A year or so before I got saved I was having dreams where I was asking God to save me. My two sisters who were raised with me are very liberal. Why did I want and find God when they did not? I wish I knew. It is very frustrating when you know that those who die without faith in Christ will enter hell, and most people simply will not hear you.
S
What Paul wrote Ephesians 1 is;
[FONT="]And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[/FONT][FONT="] who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Where does the bible say Judas was never saved and what in 1st John 2 are you referring to? Do you think all the apostles but Judas were saved? Seeing as Peter denied Jesus don't you think 1st John 2 is applicable to Peter? How about John 6:66?
That is also not in scripture but is a doctrinal point of view. Where in scripture does it say you cannot walk away from God?[/FONT]
[FONT="]And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[/FONT][FONT="] who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Where does the bible say Judas was never saved and what in 1st John 2 are you referring to? Do you think all the apostles but Judas were saved? Seeing as Peter denied Jesus don't you think 1st John 2 is applicable to Peter? How about John 6:66?
That is also not in scripture but is a doctrinal point of view. Where in scripture does it say you cannot walk away from God?[/FONT]
S
I know what you mean, I actually prayed to be born again about a year before I actually was born again but the first time I was on a bad acid trip and the Priest/Pastor who explained it to me just quoted from John 3:3, but didn't give me any context, where as a year later when I heard it in context I understood and accepted Jesus as my savior.
If you notice, not all the Elect are saved. "Many are called but few are chosen." The Elect are Christians, but the Very Elect are Christians who obey properly- these will be saved. Jesus tells us of those who called Him "Lord" and said that they did things in His name "Christian", but He told them to go to hell. Because they may have believed in God and practiced doctrine, but it was not God"s doctrine that they practiced. They practiced manmade doctrine.
Now I want to know, how people can think that those who obey the wrong way can't make it into heaven, but that those who don't obey at all will. I seriously want to know how they can believe that, and so deceive themselves. I know it can't be because of simple belief in God, because those Jesus told to depart obviously believed in Him since the called Him "Lord." And even demons believe- so it can't be faith alone. How can the New Testament be chuck full of rules, and they convince themselves that they don't have to obey it?
"They worship Me IN VAIN (not resulting in salvation)- their doctrine is merely human rules."
"With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who OBEY NOT the gospel of His Son."
Now I want to know, how people can think that those who obey the wrong way can't make it into heaven, but that those who don't obey at all will. I seriously want to know how they can believe that, and so deceive themselves. I know it can't be because of simple belief in God, because those Jesus told to depart obviously believed in Him since the called Him "Lord." And even demons believe- so it can't be faith alone. How can the New Testament be chuck full of rules, and they convince themselves that they don't have to obey it?
"They worship Me IN VAIN (not resulting in salvation)- their doctrine is merely human rules."
"With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who OBEY NOT the gospel of His Son."
Once saved, always saved- false
Having faith alone saves-false
There are people who are living in sin, far away from God, yet they believed they were going to heaven when they died because at one time in their life they had professed faith in Jesus Christ and were taught in their church that they could never lose their salvation. This false doctrine gave them false security. Not only are they being robbed of the blessings of knowing God in this life but they will be robbed of knowing Him forever unless they repent of their sins and return to the faith. They are in great danger of going to hell when they die.
I think we can agree all scripture is God breathed and the Word of God.
[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Grace is the gift of God not faith. So in no way can we earn Grace through human works. Faith must also come from teaching the gospel. Teaching, believing, repentance, confession,salvation, baptism, obeying God.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 10:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.[a]
So you see we must have faith in Jesus that comes from teaching who Jesus was and is today. This produces TRUE faith. Now let's look at what comes hand in hand with faith.
[/FONT]
[h=1]James 2:14-26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Faith and Works[/h][FONT="]14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith[a] save him?[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.”[b]Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.[c] 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,[d] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Uh oh but if faith is dead what happens to For you are saved by grace through faith. (IMPORTANT) What works is James talking about compared to Paul in Ephesians? James is calling obeying God's commandments as the good works of a believer, and not as human efforts to try and please God. [/FONT]
[h=1]
Ephesians 2:10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
We are not saved by faith alone or human works. We are saved by the combination of faith and Godly/good works ( his Word).
Now let's see what Jesus says.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 18:3Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]3 “I assure you,” He said, “unless you are converted[a] and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”[a] He said to him. “There is only One who is good.[b] If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
[/FONT]
[h=1]1 John 5:2-4Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]2 This is how we know that we love God’s children when we love God and obey[a] His commands. 3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,4 because whatever has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Revelation 22:12-14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 7:13-23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Entering the Kingdom[/h][FONT="]13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothingbut inwardly are ravaging wolves. 16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ 23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 13:20-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction[a] of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 25:14-30Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Parable of the Talents[/h][FONT="]14 “For it is just like a man going on a journey. He called his own slaves and turned over his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents;[a] to another, two; and to another, one—to each according to his own ability. Then he went on a journey.Immediately 16 the man who had received five talents went, put them to work, and earned five more. 17 In the same way the man with two earned two more. 18 But the man who had received one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 “After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five talents approached, presented five more talents, and said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. Look, I’ve earned five more talents.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy!’[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 “Then the man with two talents also approached. He said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. Look, I’ve earned two more talents.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy!’
[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 “Then the man who had received one talent also approached and said, ‘Master, I know you. You’re a difficult man, reaping where you haven’t sown and gathering where you haven’t scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Look, you have what is yours.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 “But his master replied to him, ‘You evil, lazy slave! If you knew that I reap where I haven’t sown and gather where I haven’t scattered, 27 then[b] you should have deposited my money with the bankers. And when I returned I would have received my money[c]back with interest.[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]28 “‘So take the talent from him and give it to the one who has 10 talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw this good-for-nothing slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Salvation can..... be lost
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 15:6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Remaining by staying faithful and endure to the end.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 10:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]22 You will be hated by everyone because of My name. But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.[a]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Hell.[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Having faith alone saves-false
There are people who are living in sin, far away from God, yet they believed they were going to heaven when they died because at one time in their life they had professed faith in Jesus Christ and were taught in their church that they could never lose their salvation. This false doctrine gave them false security. Not only are they being robbed of the blessings of knowing God in this life but they will be robbed of knowing Him forever unless they repent of their sins and return to the faith. They are in great danger of going to hell when they die.
I think we can agree all scripture is God breathed and the Word of God.
[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Grace is the gift of God not faith. So in no way can we earn Grace through human works. Faith must also come from teaching the gospel. Teaching, believing, repentance, confession,salvation, baptism, obeying God.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 10:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.[a]
So you see we must have faith in Jesus that comes from teaching who Jesus was and is today. This produces TRUE faith. Now let's look at what comes hand in hand with faith.
[/FONT]
[h=1]James 2:14-26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Faith and Works[/h][FONT="]14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith[a] save him?[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.”[b]Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.[c] 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,[d] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Uh oh but if faith is dead what happens to For you are saved by grace through faith. (IMPORTANT) What works is James talking about compared to Paul in Ephesians? James is calling obeying God's commandments as the good works of a believer, and not as human efforts to try and please God. [/FONT]
[h=1]
Ephesians 2:10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
We are not saved by faith alone or human works. We are saved by the combination of faith and Godly/good works ( his Word).
Now let's see what Jesus says.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 18:3Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]3 “I assure you,” He said, “unless you are converted[a] and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”[a] He said to him. “There is only One who is good.[b] If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
[/FONT]
[h=1]1 John 5:2-4Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]2 This is how we know that we love God’s children when we love God and obey[a] His commands. 3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,4 because whatever has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Revelation 22:12-14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 7:13-23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Entering the Kingdom[/h][FONT="]13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothingbut inwardly are ravaging wolves. 16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ 23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 13:20-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction[a] of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 25:14-30Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Parable of the Talents[/h][FONT="]14 “For it is just like a man going on a journey. He called his own slaves and turned over his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents;[a] to another, two; and to another, one—to each according to his own ability. Then he went on a journey.Immediately 16 the man who had received five talents went, put them to work, and earned five more. 17 In the same way the man with two earned two more. 18 But the man who had received one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 “After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five talents approached, presented five more talents, and said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. Look, I’ve earned five more talents.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy!’[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 “Then the man with two talents also approached. He said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. Look, I’ve earned two more talents.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy!’
[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 “Then the man who had received one talent also approached and said, ‘Master, I know you. You’re a difficult man, reaping where you haven’t sown and gathering where you haven’t scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Look, you have what is yours.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 “But his master replied to him, ‘You evil, lazy slave! If you knew that I reap where I haven’t sown and gather where I haven’t scattered, 27 then[b] you should have deposited my money with the bankers. And when I returned I would have received my money[c]back with interest.[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]28 “‘So take the talent from him and give it to the one who has 10 talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw this good-for-nothing slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Salvation can..... be lost
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 15:6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Remaining by staying faithful and endure to the end.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 10:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]22 You will be hated by everyone because of My name. But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.[a]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Hell.[/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
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The first paragraph of Wesley's argument from experience is worth repeating in its entirely (emphasis added). Acting as his own interviewer, Wesley writes:
Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, -- 'renewed again to repentance?' " Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded,several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who "turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
" For a great part of these "it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness." It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who "look unto him they have pierced, and mourn," refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour.
" Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.
Does this mean that it is impossible for persons to fall so far from grace once received that they will never end up in Hell? By no means. Hell is surely the potential destination for all who are not living into "that holiness without which no one can see God" (Hebrews 12:14, a phrase frequently quoted in the sermons and journals of John Wesley). His point is that despite whatever the condition of our souls may be, God is always calling, always wooing, always pleading, and always working and leaving the way open for our faith to be renewed, our hearts to be quickened by grace, and our souls to be brought to life and health again.
[h=1]2 Peter 2:21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h]
[FONT="]21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.
So we see if the gospel is truly taught that will produce true faith and with true faith comes the works or commandments of God. Hand in hand 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
So with true faith and obeying God we will see the fruit of the Spirit.
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[h=1]Galatians 5:22-26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faith,[a] 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
We are saved by True faith AND Obeying God.
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Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, -- 'renewed again to repentance?' " Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded,several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who "turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
" For a great part of these "it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness." It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who "look unto him they have pierced, and mourn," refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour.
" Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.
Does this mean that it is impossible for persons to fall so far from grace once received that they will never end up in Hell? By no means. Hell is surely the potential destination for all who are not living into "that holiness without which no one can see God" (Hebrews 12:14, a phrase frequently quoted in the sermons and journals of John Wesley). His point is that despite whatever the condition of our souls may be, God is always calling, always wooing, always pleading, and always working and leaving the way open for our faith to be renewed, our hearts to be quickened by grace, and our souls to be brought to life and health again.
[h=1]2 Peter 2:21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h]
[FONT="]21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.
So we see if the gospel is truly taught that will produce true faith and with true faith comes the works or commandments of God. Hand in hand 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
So with true faith and obeying God we will see the fruit of the Spirit.
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[h=1]Galatians 5:22-26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faith,[a] 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
We are saved by True faith AND Obeying God.
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'nuff said..
How do we prove our calling?
Often by cooling off, letting the hot steam of emotion out and finding a place of reflection.
And in this place of reflection, we return to that which we started and then failed in some
way.
I know of no one who as they were tried the Lord, found resolution and then a difficulty
overwhelmed them and pushed them back. We are changed as we walk, so the very
person who rests, is not the person who started.
The way and the walk has always been a road of adventure where we give ourselves
over to our King to do as His will deems necessary to His glory. But because His way
is a way of love and free will, we easily confuse this with rebellion.
Often by cooling off, letting the hot steam of emotion out and finding a place of reflection.
And in this place of reflection, we return to that which we started and then failed in some
way.
I know of no one who as they were tried the Lord, found resolution and then a difficulty
overwhelmed them and pushed them back. We are changed as we walk, so the very
person who rests, is not the person who started.
The way and the walk has always been a road of adventure where we give ourselves
over to our King to do as His will deems necessary to His glory. But because His way
is a way of love and free will, we easily confuse this with rebellion.