Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[Grace777x70]

Again you're assuming things. My point was I wasn't talking about hell and neither was PennEd. There is no doubt the people who confess Jesus as their Savior and then deny him are condemned to spend eternity separated from him. Heb 6:4-6.

You are entitled to your interpretation of that but there are millions of others that have a different view.

Here is a whole thread below discussing it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

 

[Grace777x70]

but he never believed again the Jesus was God and in this article because Jesus the greatest human being that ever existed two times which is not what a person confesses when they confess that Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior. Quite obviously even in his later years before he died he still didn't believe in the Jesus of the Bible. Templeton was a modern and yet tangible example of Hebrews 6:4-6. He could not and would not repent again before he died.

<strong>Pathetic Preacher Dies in Unbelief!</strong>

There are many people that somehow or other say that Jesus is the Son of God and have a hard time seeing that He is God too. It's a Trinity thing here that disturbs them as we can see by many threads on CC.

I think it is human nature in trying to take the role of God here by being able to see his heart or anyone's heart. Who knows what happened before He died. I leave things like this up to the Lord just like He said to do.

( What was pathetic to me was the way this man treated another in the article you posted here. Not an example of a Christian's character at all IMO. But he is entitled to his own opinions and judgments on others if that's what he likes to do..I will say that we can definitely tell what religion or denomination he belongs to. )

 

[Chester]

You are entitled to your interpretation of that but there are millions of others that have a different view.

Here is a whole thread below discussing it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

Yes, and you also are entitled to your own view, but there are millions of others that have a different view!

And just because there is a thread on Hebrews 6:4-6 that explains it one way does not mean that view is truth! LOL!

 

[samuel23]

The ultimate pride, God chose me not you, not because I did anything better but just because I am me. To those who think like that I would say. Maybe you are one of those God did not chose, you just think you are. However your friend Tom who is living a much more immoral life then you are was one of the chosen...how does that make you feel? Tom is destined for a wonderful life in Heaven and you are destined for the lake of fire and there is nothing you can do about it...how does that make you feel?

 

[samuel23]

Not long before Charles Templeton died he wrote a book called Farewell to God. Templeton was saved in the traditional way and became a great preacher. He decided to go to school and as strange as it seems he believed in the teaching of evolution and therefore concluded that the bible could not be true. He simply stopped believing in God. He lived for many years and as far as the record shows never came back to God. I do not believe that many who are really saved fall away, however it is possible and some do. Where I went to church the song leader's best friend at her wedding and a devote and practicing Christian became a Muslim. We have a free will folks...why do you think the bible warns us to stay in the faith.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, and you also are entitled to your own view, but there are millions of others that have a different view!

And just because there is a thread on Hebrews 6:4-6 that explains it one way does not mean that view is truth! LOL!

Yep.....I agree.......let every man be fully persuaded in his own heart of what he believes about the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and of His love and grace towards us.

I choose to believe and make the judgment call that Jesus is not a liar when He said the Holy Spirit will never leave you and will be with you forever.

I am NOT saying if others don't believe that - they are calling Jesus a liar. I am simply saying that is my own personal judgment.

Maybe this is where this thread below might come in handy...do we "create" darkness?...This could be a "Julia Roberts fashion creation" moment...lol..

( this will not make any sense until we read the thread below but blue_ladybug will understand it..lol - it's a joke..kind of.)

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147549-explanation-isaiah-45-7-a.html

 

[StanJ]

You are entitled to your interpretation of that but there are millions of others that have a different view.

Here is a whole thread below discussing it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems.html

You're not supposed to cross post on CC so you can deal with the issue here or ignore it. Millions of other Christians haven't got the faintest idea what they believe and many have never had to defend their beliefs.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Umm, people cross-post threads on here all the time, so I don't know where you get it from that they're not supposed to do it..

You're not supposed to cross post on CC so you can deal with the issue here or ignore it. Millions of other Christians haven't got the faintest idea what they believe and many have never had to defend their beliefs.

 

[StanJ]

Umm, people cross-post threads on here all the time, so I don't know where you get it from that they're not supposed to do it..

Just because people do so doesn't mean they're allowed to do so. I'm sure being a long-time member you know that a lot of rules don't get followed here because of the lack of moderating staff.

 

[Chester]

You're not supposed to cross post on CC so you can deal with the issue here or ignore it. Millions of other Christians haven't got the faintest idea what they believe and many have never had to defend their beliefs.

StanJ - I just checked through the rules for CC and found nothing said about cross posting. Did I miss it somewhere?

 

[Grace777x70]

StanJ - I just checked through the rules for CC and found nothing said about cross posting. Did I miss it somewhere?

I have never seen a rule like that before but I have only been following what others have done which may or not be accurate. I don't like to re-hash old things because we cannot force others to see things like we do. We can just give out the scriptures and beliefs we have and leave it there in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

That is the reason why I post other threads that address a subject - for those that have a genuine interest in the subject. It saves the bickering back and forth between us that do have a differing opinion on some areas as that can lead to nowhere that will bring good fruit in all of us.

( It's good to see that the earth hasn't opened up and swallowed you despite we differ in some areas...lol..)

 

[StanJ]

StanJ - I just checked through the rules for CC and found nothing said about cross posting. Did I miss it somewhere?

Don't know, ask the admin. It's a normal rule on every Forum I'm on or have been on.

 

[tourist]

StanJ - I just checked through the rules for CC and found nothing said about cross posting. Did I miss it somewhere?

Is this similar to cross dressing? Never heard of the term 'cross posting'.

 

[blue_ladybug]

There is nothing in the rules here about no cross-posting. I don't need to ask Admin, I already know what the answer would be. Because THEY cross post too. LOL.. It may be a rule on other sites you've been on, but it's NOT a rule on THIS site..

Don't know, ask the admin. It's a normal rule on every Forum I'm on or have been on.

 

[FranC]

Hi Fran,

All good and legitimate questions....

I was brought up after getting saved in an Armenian church so I'm familiar with the doctrine of supposedly losing one's salvation but the more I studied the scriptures and saw what Christ has done - I had to abandon that doctrine.

I had previously explained that "free will" only has so much weight in the scheme of things. Once you are born-again - we cannot unborn ourselves no matter how sick in our minds we get. It violates the very essence of being born in the first place.

I do believe we have the free will to choose with our heart to believe in Christ and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit who Jesus said He would be with us forever.

I'll answer your questions -

1) Church fathers said some things that seemed to indicate we lose salvation as in being with the Lord.

That is their opinion - like Ireanous said "“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180) - there is no scripture for this belief and statement that he made.

And Justin Marytr - to me he is just saying that those that know Jesus is the Christ and go back to the Law of Moses - these will be lost if they don't repent and come to Christ. Hebrews 10:26-29 says the same thing. There is a difference between knowing the truth and receiving the truth of Christ alone for the sacrifice of sins.

And Tertullian - is just giving his opinion. Imagine Jesus dying for the world and then most that come to Him will not be with Him for eternity. Something wrong there in his opinion of things in this area of understanding the work of Christ.

2) Are we " a person"?...Jesus said "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Are we an "one? - as in a person" Of course. As I said - we can get screwed up in our thinking but our spirit which is in Christ is not affected because we have been created in righteousness and holiness and we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.

3) Of course people can backslide ( as you put it ) and not be in faith in dealing with many areas of life and living.

The truth is most of us are not in faith like we can be in our daily walk with the Lord because we are not really trusting Him like we should. Therefore we miss out on a lot of "life" that is available to us.

It is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises of God. Give up in holding out for something from the Lord ( like peace or hope in the midst of a battle ) and we can lose out in this life and not experience "salvation" like we can. Salvation means to preserve, deliverance, to make well, to keep safe.

God thinks and lives in terms of "life". Jesus didn't really save us so that we could go to heaven ( altho that is true but it is a by-product ). He came to bring us "life". This "life" can be manifested here on this earth while we are alive as well as for sure when we die because then we have this flesh gone and our unrenewed minds are not going to hinder us either.

I will be happy to discuss anything else you may think of and it is good to be able to discuss these things in a civil way like we have. It is a blessing talking with you. I know that this is different from what some of us have been brought up to believe.

Have a great night and chat with you later.

Hi Grace777
Wish I had more time for this... I didn't want you to think I forgot about you.

Since we both know both sides, I'd just like to ask you this:
WHAT verse or explanation or life experience (not if it's personal) happened to change your mind?
I thought about this all day yesterday.

Jesus spent all His time telling us how to change and how to be and what to do. The Apostles exhorted us to be diligent in our faith till the end and not to fall away.

I love the parable of the sower. Let's take Mathew 13:3-8
Then Jesus explains it in Mathew 13:18-23

Mathew 13:19 The person is never born again. Satan snatches away the word of God before it is understood.

Mathew 13:20-21 This is the person who hears the Word and immediately receives it with JOY. He is saved.
BUT it is only TEMPORARY because affliction comes his way and immediately he FALLS AWAY.

THIS person is saved and is saved with joy, but then falls away and is no longer saved because Jesus proceeds to explain who IS: Mathew 13:23 This is the person who hears and understands and bears fruit.

The person explained by Jesus in Mathew 13:20-21 explains the one who is lost, saved, and lost in the end.

WHAT could have possible changed your mind??

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace777
Wish I had more time for this... I didn't want you to think I forgot about you.

Since we both know both sides, I'd just like to ask you this:
WHAT verse or explanation or life experience (not if it's personal) happened to change your mind?
I thought about this all day yesterday.

Jesus spent all His time telling us how to change and how to be and what to do. The Apostles exhorted us to be diligent in our faith till the end and not to fall away.

I love the parable of the sower. Let's take Mathew 13:3-8
Then Jesus explains it in Mathew 13:18-23

Mathew 13:19 The person is never born again. Satan snatches away the word of God before it is understood.

Mathew 13:20-21 This is the person who hears the Word and immediately receives it with JOY. He is saved.
BUT it is only TEMPORARY because affliction comes his way and immediately he FALLS AWAY.

THIS person is saved and is saved with joy, but then falls away and is no longer saved because Jesus proceeds to explain who IS: Mathew 13:23 This is the person who hears and understands and bears fruit.

The person explained by Jesus in Mathew 13:20-21 explains the one who is lost, saved, and lost in the end.

WHAT could have possible changed your mind??

Fran

Hey Fran,

I will link below for you to a post where I described what the Lord did when He revealed the gospel of the grace of Christ to me. I had for years tried to life the Christian life as it was portrayed to me from my church upbringing. It had the "lose your salvation doctrine" which actually helped me to walk away from the church itself - but not the Lord in my heart.

I have no problem with church - the gathering of believers together is not the issue.

Anyway in my dis-illusionedment ( if that is even a word ) I felt like I just couldn't measure up to this Christian life being portrayed to me in the form that it was given so I started what others would call just living my life to the best I could but I never went to church any more or read the bible. I would still sometimes talk with the Lord though in my heart - if you can understand that part. I was like this for about 15 years.

Here is the link.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138888-metanoia-repentance-8.html#post2704156

After you read that - I will continue - While the Lord was showing me His grace and the true gospel - my mind was full of these doubts because of my church teachings on losing salvation. One by one the Lord showed me how the grace of God fit in with the scriptures that were used to seem to say that we lose salvation.

Now, there is not one scripture that I can honestly say that shows me without a doubt that a true believer that is joined as one spirit with the Lord - sealed with the Holy Spirit will ever lose salvation as in being with the Lord.

There are however many warnings about how we inherit the things of God through faith and patience and if we give up on our confidence - we can lose out on the benefits of what the Lord has done for us in this life.

For example - if we lose faith that God will bring us peace in a situation - we will not experience the salvation ( which means to preserve, to keep safe, make whole, to rescue ) that is theirs in Christ.

These warnings are a blessing however unfortunately they have been used as a battling ram against believers that have been struggling to learn how to live by faith by telling them that they are going to hell now and thus this teaching has ship-wrecked their faith in this life. Their minds are all messed up but their hearts - the inner man created in Christ is still incorruptible.

I must take off now as I'm going to play some pickleball. I'll chat about the sower parable later on. Bless you. I enjoy talking with you.

 

[FranC]

The ultimate pride, God chose me not you, not because I did anything better but just because I am me. To those who think like that I would say. Maybe you are one of those God did not chose, you just think you are. However your friend Tom who is living a much more immoral life then you are was one of the chosen...how does that make you feel? Tom is destined for a wonderful life in Heaven and you are destined for the lake of fire and there is nothing you can do about it...how does that make you feel?

I like what you say!

Often I tell eternal security believers that they are VERY lucky to be one of the chosen few!!

(It just doesn't make sense and I've never even understood why this OSAS belief is even necessary...)

Fran

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I like what you say!

Often I tell eternal security believers that they are VERY lucky to be one of he chosen few!!

(It just doesn't make sense and I've never even understood why this OSAS belief is even necessary...)

Fran

I would not call it luck,, The same "hope" is offered to us all..

 

[FranC]

Hey Fran,

I will link below for you to a post where I described what the Lord did when He revealed the gospel of the grace of Christ to me. I had for years tried to life the Christian life as it was portrayed to me from my church upbringing. It had the "lose your salvation doctrine" which actually helped me to walk away from the church itself - but not the Lord in my heart.

I have no problem with church - the gathering of believers together is not the issue.

Anyway in my dis-illusionedment ( if that is even a word ) I felt like I just couldn't measure up to this Christian life being portrayed to me in the form that it was given so I started what others would call just living my life to the best I could but I never went to church any more or read the bible. I would still sometimes talk with the Lord though in my heart - if you can understand that part. I was like this for about 15 years.

Here is the link.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138888-metanoia-repentance-8.html#post2704156

After you read that - I will continue - While the Lord was showing me His grace and the true gospel - my mind was full of these doubts because of my church teachings on losing salvation. One by one the Lord showed me how the grace of God fit in with the scriptures that were used to seem to say that we lose salvation.

Now, there is not one scripture that I can honestly say that shows me without a doubt that a true believer that is joined as one spirit with the Lord - sealed with the Holy Spirit will ever lose salvation as in being with the Lord.

There are however many warnings about how we inherit the things of God through faith and patience and if we give up on our confidence - we can lose out on the benefits of what the Lord has done for us in this life.

For example - if we lose faith that God will bring us peace in a situation - we will not experience the salvation ( which means to preserve, to keep safe, make whole, to rescue ) that is theirs in Christ.

These warnings are a blessing however unfortunately they have been used as a battling ram against believers that have been struggling to learn how to live by faith by telling them that they are going to hell now and thus this teaching has ship-wrecked their faith in this life. Their minds are all messed up but their hearts - the inner man created in Christ is still incorruptible.

I must take off now as I'm going to play some pickleball. I'll chat about the sower parable later on. Bless you. I enjoy talking with you.

I fear it's going to be a works oriented Church, even though I DO believe in works.
It's not so easy to lose one's salvation Grace. It's not one extreme or the other.
As long as we stay in Jesus' loving arm, we are safe and sound, EVEN WHILE WE SIN!!

However, I'll read it and then we could talk some more.

Not tonight! (it's 1:30 am here)
Fran

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is the belief in the concept once saved, always saved biblical? So for example if a Christian one day has a bad event in life and blames God to the point he feels their is no God and decides to live as he wants. Is the person still saved. Since God calls his people the elect.

But James warns us to be James 1:22-25Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

22 But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face[a] in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does good works—this person will be blessed in what he does.


James 2:26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

To me it seems we must be doers and let the light of God show through our lives or else our faith is dead.

But yet we have these scriptures speaking on the elect and predestination.


Matthew 22:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen"


Matthew 24:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[a] survive.[b] But those days will be limited because of the elect.


Luke 18:7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

7 Will not God grant justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He delay to help them?[a]


John 13:18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

18 I’m not speaking about all of you; I know those I have chosen.But the Scripture must be fulfilled: The one who eats My bread[a]has raised his heel against Me


John 15:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.


Acts 2:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used[a] lawless people[b] to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.


Romans 8:29-30Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.


Romans 9:11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand—


Ephesians 1:4-5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.[a] In love[b] 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,


1 Peter 1:1-2Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Greeting

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ:
To the temporary residents dispersed[a] in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

So my questions are....

We see the words foreknowledge, chosen, elect, predestined, foreknew, and determined plan.
I am confused if Jesus died for all of mankind past, present, and future how can some be chosen over others and if active Christians are the chosen then does this mean once saved, always saved is biblical? Does this mean if a Christian falls away from Faith he was never truly chosen? Does this indicate the Devil has children as well predestined to be evil?


1 John 3:9-10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[a] because His[b] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[c] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.

this is how i see it.,

1. They are chosen based on Gods foreknowledge, not randomly chosen.
2. God died for all.. Thus all are offered eternal life.
3. God knows every man before they are born, He knows their life from beginning to end.. He also knows their heart.
4. God chose to save them based on his knowledge before time began, so he knows everyone who will be saved by faith, and everyone who will reject him throughout all time (God is outside of time)
5. To say someone can be saved, then somehow lose it, is to say God made a mistake. Because it states God on one day granted a person eternal life. Sealed them with his spirit. Adopted them as his children, Justified them, Redeemed them, Made he who was dead in Christ alive in him, as well as many other things, some time later have to remove those things, because the person did something God did not already know he was going to do. (reject him)