Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,057
627
113
#61
Indeed once again indicative to believers not unbelievers. Were sealed in the past does not mean you cannot be unsealed and quench the Spirit of God in the future or there would be no warnings not to...

1Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
Remember what Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22:32 (keeping in mind that this was BEFORE the John 7:39 thing was to come into play [i.e. "not yet"])... https://biblehub.com/text/luke/22-32.htm … "[Satan hath desired you, that he may sift you as wheat]: BUT I have prayed [/begged/made supplication] for thee, that thy faith FAIL NOT: and WHEN [not *if* / *if by chance*] thou art converted [/turned], strengthen thy brethren" (I think this is what we then see Peter doing in Acts 3, where he uses the word "brethren" in v.17 [of Jewish as-yet-unsaved persons]).


Do you believe His present ministry (for "believers") is less "effectual"?? ["EVER LIVETH to make intercession for them" Heb7:25]
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
626
93
#62
Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Hi all, just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines what we do and making salvation conditional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

THE LITTLE WORD IF DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

IF (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogative, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

IF(Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF(conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation conditional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?
What did you do today to keep your salvation?
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#64
First of ALL....the OP has conflated numerous texts out of context into one big quagmire of fallacy.......THE O.T. and the blessings afforded therein were conditional upon obedience.....IT has NO BEARING on the N.T. other than deeming ALL humanity guilty because NO ONE could keep the law.....

2nd.....The words of JESUS, which he also conflates into a false gospel must ALSO be viewed under the banner of understanding that JESUS was born, lived and DIED under the LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT

3rd....THE scriptures he twists in the N.T. are primarily aimed at FELLOWSHIP, not salvation.....

and he is peddling the SAME dogma a former member used to peddle from the same country........and refuses to answer....

a. Are you this former member her under a new name
b. Have you ever lost salvation yourself.....

Pretense, conflated scripture, refusal to answer valid questions, twisted and skewed scripture, denial of perfect tense verbs, and on and on and on.....speaks volumes....
Yet here you are full of nasty words and allegations and have not provided scripture that disagrees with the op? I know who I believe and follow and it is not you. What is it in the scriptures that you have provided in the OP that you disagree with and why? Simply saying you do not agree with God's word does not make it so because you say so. If you have something to share in regards to the OP please say so or it may be easier to simply put you on the ignore list and pray for you. I do not wish to do this.

May God help you as you seek him in his word.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#65
The Bible makes it clear if you want to save yourself by obedience it requires perfection.

Since no one is perfect no one can earn salvation by obedience

That means grace is required
No one is saying we have to save ourselves. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8). Not sure why you are saying this.

God bless
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#66
Everything you’ve shared pertains to having faith. My heart hurts for you that you walk in fear rather than confidence in the Lord.
Thank you but I do not work in fear but in love because he is love and now I am free to love another. According to the scriptures only God's word is true and we should believe and follow it (Romans 3:4)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
1,749
781
113
#67
QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation conditional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?[/QUOTE]
You worry too much. All of the parables of Jesus relating to maintenance of faith and perseverance of the Saints are fully satisfied by genuine believers.

-talents
-soils
-virgins with oil
-wedding garments
-vines bearing fruit

so on and so forth
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#68
I asked valid questions and made valid points.....and your refusal to address them and then ACCUSE is speaking volumes.....I have not called you names or been nasty....
Please address the OP and the scriptures in them. If you cannot why do you not believe them?
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#69
thanks big bro. thats what i believe too. dispensationalism thats called. or whatever you can call it, rightly dividing the bible. putting things in right time frames.
What is it that you do not believe that has been presented in the scriptures in the OP? Happy to discuss it with you.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#70
Remember what Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22:32 (keeping in mind that this was BEFORE the John 7:39 thing was to come into play [i.e. "not yet"])... https://biblehub.com/text/luke/22-32.htm … "[Satan hath desired you, that he may sift you as wheat]: BUT I have prayed [/begged/made supplication] for thee, that thy faith FAIL NOT: and WHEN [not *if* / *if by chance*] thou art converted [/turned], strengthen thy brethren" (I think this is what we then see Peter doing in Acts 3, where he uses the word "brethren" in v.17 [of Jewish as-yet-unsaved persons]).


Do you believe His present ministry (for "believers") is less "effectual"?? ["EVER LIVETH to make intercession for them" Heb7:25]
This only supports the scriptures already provided that show that our salvation is always conditional on believing and following God's word always in the present tense. Without God's help and if we do not abide in Christ we can fall away into temptation because without Jesus we can do nothing.

God bless.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,778
5,417
113
#72
In the past the ifs have had me shiverring and tucking my tail between my legs. I too would like more clarity on the scriptures that seem to point to contingencies. However, I rest now in His promises. I think they are His design to make sure we REALLY believe. Jeremiah comes to mind.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Jeremiah 32:40 NASB


It is He that saves us and He that keeps us. All of us who believe will stumble, all of us who believe will grow as we yearn to humbly walk with Him. Only He is able to present us blameless. We are in Him. We are not Him.

It is because of our trust in Him that we can rest in this...

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24‭-‬25 NASB

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts , boast in the Lord .”
1 Corinthians 1:30‭-‬31 NASB

I believe obedience is very important component of loving Him. He says so. That is why He put His laws in our heart. The key, for me, is trusting in His ability to get us where we need to be, rather than hoping and trusting in ourselves. I don't know about you but history has proven to me that trusting in Him rather than myself is the wise way to go. Seeking His word and walking humbly with Him all is possible because He first loves us. He gets all the Glory.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, “H e scattered abroad , he gave to the poor , H is righteousness endures forever .” Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:8‭-‬10 NASB

We are not set apart because of anything we do, but because He is Holy.

I believe He wants to renew our thoughts in Him, constantly working within, helping us walk in His spirit, not be terrified of our carnality waging war against Him.

I believe in Him and my trust is in Him. Great is His Faithfulness.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#73
QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation conditional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?
You worry too much. All of the parables of Jesus relating to maintenance of faith and perseverance of the Saints are fully satisfied by genuine believers.

-talents
-soils
-virgins with oil
-wedding garments
-vines bearing fruit

so on and so forth[/QUOTE]

Hi CV5 thanks for sharing with us here :).

Did you wish to let us know a little more.....

God bless and thank you
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,994
14,593
113
#74
Yet here you are full of nasty words and allegations and have not provided scripture that disagrees with the op? I know who I believe and follow and it is not you. What is it in the scriptures that you have provided in the OP that you disagree with and why? Simply saying you do not agree with God's word does not make it so because you say so. If you have something to share in regards to the OP please say so or it may be easier to simply put you on the ignore list and pray for you. I do not wish to do this.

May God help you as you seek him in his word.
What I posted was the truth.......sorry if you are easily offended and cannot deal with the truth......so let's recap and see who is being honest.....

I said....

conflated numerous texts out of context into one big quagmire of fallacy <---true and not mouthy or nasty just truth...

conflated the word of JESUS into a false gospel <---TRUE not mouthy or nasty...and failed to honor the context which the words were spoken under

twisted the N.T. scriptures aimed at fellowship to salvation <---True not mouthy or nasty

Peddling the same dogma as a former member from the SAME country <----TRUE and mt mouthy or nasty

Refuses to answer two very valid questions <---True and not mouthy or nasty

Recapping the truth of everything I just stated (underlined)

WHY does the truth offend so any people.....???


dcontroversal said:
First of ALL....the OP has conflated numerous texts out of context into one big quagmire of fallacy.......THE O.T. and the blessings afforded therein were conditional upon obedience.....IT has NO BEARING on the N.T. other than deeming ALL humanity guilty because NO ONE could keep the law.....

2nd.....The words of JESUS, which he also conflates into a false gospel must ALSO be viewed under the banner of understanding that JESUS was born, lived and DIED under the LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT

3rd....THE scriptures he twists in the N.T. are primarily aimed at FELLOWSHIP, not salvation.....

and he is peddling the SAME dogma a former member used to peddle from the same country........and refuses to answer....

a. Are you this former member her under a new name
b. Have you ever lost salvation yourself.....

Pretense, conflated scripture, refusal to answer valid questions, twisted and skewed scripture, denial of perfect tense verbs, and on and on and on.....speaks volumes....
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#75
In the past the ifs have had me shiverring and tucking my tail between my legs. I too would like more clarity on the scriptures that seem to point to contingencies. I think they are His design to make sure we REALLY believe. Jeremiah comes to mind.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Jeremiah 32:40 NASB


It is He that saves us and He that keeps us. All of us who believe will stumble, all of us who believe will grow as we yearn to humbly walk with Him. Only He is able to present us blameless. We are in Him. We are not Him.

It is because of our trust in Him that we can rest in this...

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24‭-‬25 NASB

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts , boast in the Lord .”
1 Corinthians 1:30‭-‬31 NASB

I believe obedience is very important component of loving Him. He says so. That is why He put His laws in our heart. The key, for me, is trusting in His ability to get us where we need to be, rather than hoping and trusting in ourselves. I don't know about you but history has proven to me that trusting in Him rather than myself is the wise way to go. Seeking His word and walking humbly with Him all is possible because He first loves us. He gets all the Glory.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, “H e scattered abroad , he gave to the poor , H is righteousness endures forever .” Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:8‭-‬10 NASB

We are not set apart because of anything we do, but because He is Holy.

I believe He wants to renew our thoughts in Him, constantly working within, helping us walk in His spirit, not be terrified of our carnality waging war against Him.
Hi Charli,

Great post, I really enjoyed reading it. I think when we are first coming to know God than God uses these scriptures to lead us to Jesus that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25). Once we become believers and followers of God's Word and have been born again to love (Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 5:17; 1 John 3:6-10), I believe God's commandments are his promises to those who believe and follow him who called us in love to love another. Thanks for sharing with us

God bless
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#76
What I posted was the truth.......sorry if you are easily offended and cannot deal with the truth......so let's recap and see who is being honest.....

I said....

conflated numerous texts out of context into one big quagmire of fallacy <---true and not mouthy or nasty just truth...

conflated the word of JESUS into a false gospel <---TRUE not mouthy or nasty...and failed to honor the context which the words were spoken under

twisted the N.T. scriptures aimed at fellowship to salvation <---True not mouthy or nasty

Peddling the same dogma as a former member from the SAME country <----TRUE and mt mouthy or nasty

Refuses to answer two very valid questions <---True and not mouthy or nasty

Recapping the truth of everything I just stated (underlined)

WHY does the truth offend so any people.....???


dcontroversal said:
First of ALL....the OP has conflated numerous texts out of context into one big quagmire of fallacy.......THE O.T. and the blessings afforded therein were conditional upon obedience.....IT has NO BEARING on the N.T. other than deeming ALL humanity guilty because NO ONE could keep the law.....

2nd.....The words of JESUS, which he also conflates into a false gospel must ALSO be viewed under the banner of understanding that JESUS was born, lived and DIED under the LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT

3rd....THE scriptures he twists in the N.T. are primarily aimed at FELLOWSHIP, not salvation.....

and he is peddling the SAME dogma a former member used to peddle from the same country........and refuses to answer....

a. Are you this former member her under a new name
b. Have you ever lost salvation yourself.....

Pretense, conflated scripture, refusal to answer valid questions, twisted and skewed scripture, denial of perfect tense verbs, and on and on and on.....speaks volumes....

Sorry I must have missed what you posted. What truth did you post? What is it in the scriptures in the OP that you disagree with? All I am hearing are your words which are not God's. You are free to believe as you wish though, I do not judge you. I see you are here simply to argue for the same of making arguments that do not profit. Please forgive me but I am not interested.

God bless you as you seek him through his word.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
626
93
#77
Thank you but I do not work in fear but in love because he is love and now I am free to love another. According to the scriptures only God's word is true and we should believe and follow it (Romans 3:4)
Are you more free than others who believe in the eternal, irrevocable gift of grace through faith?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
1,749
781
113
#78
OK. There are the Saints and the Ain'ts.
That's about it.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,778
5,417
113
#79
I want to be clear, I now believe the ifs are to make sure we believe not so we stay saved.

He keeps us. You do agree He gets ALL the glory, right?

How do you reconcile your stance with Him being the author and finisher?
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#80
I want to be clear, I now believe the ifs are to make sure we believe not so we stay saved.

He keeps us. You do agree He gets ALL the glory, right?

How do you reconcile your stance with Him being the author and finisher?
Not sure who this is directed to?? But of course it is God's work in us. Without Jesus we can do nothing. He is the author and finisher of all those who believe and follow God's word not to those who once believed and no longer follow.

God bless